Boundless arrogance? — tim wood
Israel is the law — tim wood
I think - putting it simply - that Hamas and the Palestinians are in control, and what they're getting and have is what they wanted, worked for, and got. — tim wood
The problem is that, given the shifting geopolitical situation, Israel is not going to survive such a round of conflicts. It is a tiny nation amid a sea of historical enemies.
It would be really callous to take such a stance, in effect saying: "Just let history take its course once more." — Tzeentch
Eighty Years' War (1568-1648):
The Eighty Years' War, fought for religious and political autonomy against the Spanish Empire, was a significant period of violence leading to the establishment of the independent Dutch Republic.
Dutch East India Company (VOC) and Colonial Violence:
Dutch colonial expansion, notably through the VOC, resulted in violence against local populations in regions such as the Dutch East Indies.
Thirty Years' War (1618-1648):
The Thirty Years' War, a complex conflict involving multiple European powers, had significant implications for the Dutch Republic. The war contributed to the economic and political rise of the Dutch Republic as it gained formal recognition at the Peace of Westphalia in 1648.
French Revolutionary and Napoleonic Wars (1795-1815):
The French occupation during this period led to political changes in the Netherlands and included instances of violence.
World War II Occupation (1940-1945):
The Nazi occupation resulted in widespread violence and suffering, with the Dutch resistance engaging in acts of sabotage.
Decolonization and Indonesian War of Independence (1945-1949):
The Netherlands faced violence during the decolonization process, particularly in Indonesia, where the Dutch attempted to retain control.
Modern Terrorism and Political Violence:
In recent decades, the Netherlands has experienced instances of terrorism, such as the 2004 assassination of filmmaker Theo van Gogh, highlighting contemporary challenges.
Each of these historical events has shaped the trajectory of the Netherlands, contributing to its development, identity, and global influence. — ChatGPT
One state, equal rights, the only way: you and I have already agreed on this. (If only everyone else would - or could!)What about: Give Palestinians equal rights. End the crimes against humanity. — Tzeentch
If not them, then who? Always I have in mind Oct. 7th. And in case you did not notice the question, if not them, then who? In passing I note that Israeli "crimes against humanity" arise entirely from their desire - and right - not to be murdered and to take action to defend themselves.But no, Israel is not 'the law'. — Tzeentch
One state, equal rights, the only way: you and I have already agreed on this. (If only everyone else would - or could!) — tim wood
The only way, which is also a complete impossibility. There isn't a chance in the world that Jews want to give up Israel as they know it in exchange for that. Out of all the possible ways to end the conflict, this suggestion seems NICE but also near the bottom of the "likely to happen" list. If that's the only way... well, then Palestine's fucked. — flannel jesus
Maybe, but who f**ked them? Ans.: themselves first of all, and then their "friends," beliefs, and religion. And of course once a person or a people have well and thoroughly f**cked themselves, their last resort is professional victimhood, in which they disavow any responsibility whatsoever, being through-and-through nothing but poor victims.If that's the only way... well, then Palestine's fucked. — flannel jesus
However, Netanyahu is right about de-radicalizing the Palestinians. — schopenhauer1
:smirk: :up:Boundless arrogance?
— tim wood
Israel is the law
— tim wood
:chin: Kind of making my point for me there, buddy. — Tzeentch
:100:Netanyahu has no right to speak of deradicalizing anyone. He's a radical himself. Hamas is his baby. The murder of Yitzhak Rabin is his brain child. The death of Israel will be in large part his doing. — Tzeentch
Netanyahu has no right to speak of deradicalizing anyone. He's a radical himself. Hamas is his baby. The murder of Yitzhak Rabin is his brain child. The death of Israel will be in large part his doing. — Tzeentch
Being a citizen of a country that survived WW2 and is seen as being part of the Axis (even if we fought the Germans later), you really should think twice when countries have to do "the honorable work of rebuilding and self-rehabilitiation, with appropriate rewards at every step."But for sheer possibility, let's look at the post war history of the Axis powers of WWII. They had defeat forced upon them and then they undertook the honorable work of rebuilding and self-rehabilitation, with appropriate rewards at every step. And they have done pretty well. Not a possibility for the Palestinians? Who says? — tim wood
Bibi needs his coalition partners, who actually are quite close to Meir Kahane. That's the problem here. They really are former terrorists... or terrorists that got free and to positions to further their agenda now.Or is Netanyahu actually Meir Kahane in disguise, back from the dead? — BitconnectCarlos
As usual your words have weight that at the least call for a considered response. Mine in these terms:What really have the Palestinians done wrong? And what kind of option is this Israeli administration giving them? — ssu
Personally I don't have anything against Jews or Israeli Jews. I've met few, they were very smart people and actually didn't like how politics were going in their country, but naturally were very patriotic. Yes, the truth is that those lunatics dancing around in meetings and purposing new settlements in Gaza with the "voluntary removal" of Palestinians won't create empathy for the Jewish cause.
Yes, it will also increase anti-semitism as there are those that are prone to hate all people of certain group for the actions of either governments or some people (like terrorists). Hatred of Russians is another perfect example of this. But many Russians here were shocked by what Putin had done when attacking Ukraine. Hence I'm not going to for example ban Russian restaurants... they don't have President Putin's photo or the orange-black colours or "Z" up on their walls.
And what "Canary in the coal mine" are you talking about? — ssu
Bibi needs his coalition partners, who actually are quite close to Meir Kahane. That's the problem here. They really are former terrorists... or terrorists that got free and to positions to further their agenda now. — ssu
I would get your point if this would be about something that has happened some time ago. Unfortunately the war is going on right now. It isn't at all abstract now, hasn't been abstract for a long time. This isn't just a thing with the Palestinian diaspora, this is a thing with those people now there. That it has gone for 75 years is the sad part. This problem ought to have solved when the Cold War was over, but it didn't.So, that Palestine this or that, or that Palestinians this or that, then, is of abstract interest now. And a failure to rigorously account for any significance now allows for people now to claim benefit for an offense committed against someone else long ago, that might not even have been an offense, was not committed against them, and that they use and ground and warrant - their excuse - to murder without scruple or responsibility for their actions. This being in part what i call above a kind of professional victimhood. — tim wood
And it's not helpful that this issue becomes part of the moronic culture war, and isn't being able to be talked as an foreign policy issue.I see it as an early sign of things to come especially if this remains unchecked. — BitconnectCarlos
Just shows how absolutely crazy these "anti-racism" racists are. But naturally there's no logic to these stupidities, it is only a matter of convenience what the present hated or feared group is by the haters, be they the Jews, the Irish, the Muslims, the Japanese, the Chinese, whoever and whatever.DEI has ignored Jews for decades, portraying them as white oppressors. — BitconnectCarlos
That is true. And that makes my point that religious zealots have hijacked the situation on both sides. I still would think that the majority of people would be OK if there would negotiated two-state solution and then actual peace. But that majority is silenced and naturally takes the side.Many if not most of the kibbutzim that Hamas attacked on 10/7 were some of the most left-leaning, pro-integrationist settlements in Israel. They would employ Palestinians, drive them to hospitals, etc. It was those Palestinians who gave Hamas the intel it needed to successfully attack. And we wonder why people like Ben Gvir rise to power. — BitconnectCarlos
No. The success of the October 7th attacks lies on the false assumption that a high tech wall can make Israel safe. The falsehood was here that the wall was intended for minor breakthrough attempts, not a large-scale well planned operation similar to a military operation. The wall was simply not built for that. They simply didn't anticipate this kind of attack. Yet likely Hamas had been for years thinking of this while digging all those tunnels.It was those Palestinians who gave Hamas the intel it needed to successfully attack. — BitconnectCarlos
That rise only shows the failure of "Mr. Security", prime minister Netanyahu. Because to assume that people like Ben Gvir will fix the problem is simply delusional. (Far more worse than thinking that Trump is the God-Emperor saviour for the US.) As if the "voluntary removal" of 2 million Palestinians and the building of new settlements in a Palestinian free-Gaza (forgot what the Jewish name for the place is) will be the success story you can dance about. Nope, this is just going to be one disaster among the many disasters that the Jewish people have endured. And so for the Palestinians too.And we wonder why people like Ben Gvir rise to power. — BitconnectCarlos
Just shows how absolutely crazy these "anti-racism" racists are. But naturally there's no logic to these stupidities, it is only a matter of convenience what the present hated or feared group is by the haters, be they the Jews, the Irish, the Muslims, the Japanese, the Chinese, whoever and whatever. — ssu
And that makes my point that religious zealots have hijacked the situation on both sides. — ssu
That rise only shows the failure of "Mr. Security", prime minister Netanyahu. Because to assume that people like Ben Gvir will fix the problem is simply delusional. — ssu
Yep, guess what the response would have been by the IRA? You think they would have less volunteers?
aaannd we've entered into conspiracy theory territory. — BitconnectCarlos
Just curious, is there other nations and leaders you also don’t approve of? — schopenhauer1
But this problem may also depend on some implicit assumptions that mislead our understanding of the problem itself.
Just curious. What if Israel completely withdrew to 67 borders said that Palestinians have a state now (whatever that entails), and the Palestinians in charge within a few weeks launch a campaign dividing Israel in half, launching missiles from the high ground in the West Bank, and starts to form a siege on all major Israeli cities. — schopenhauer1
I think the two state solution is the only solution the Palestinians are willing to accept — Benkei
I don't agree with your assessment that the two state solution is dead. Or at least, we should make sure it isn't because the alternative will only happen when hell freezes over. I think the two state solution is the only solution the Palestinians are willing to accept and the one-state certainly is also out of the question for the Zionists. There's also the issue of the right to return, which would immediately cause non-Jews to outnumber Jews. I think that would even give non-zionist Jews pause.
The two state solution can be implemented IF the international community demands extensive resettlement of illegal settlers out of the West Bank. It would be consistent with international law instead of rewarding this genocide by slow displacement. — Benkei
Do not even attempt to find any logic in the racist/anti-racist narrative. There isn't any. For example being "white" is as changing as ever.Some of these groups are nationalities, others are religions -- can one not question an ideology? Or should we just immediately accept it if it's a religion? I'm wary of any religion which seeks to convert the world to its creed. — BitconnectCarlos
Likely he isn't. But just as he knows how to play the game with the Americans, so can he do with the religious fanatics. Yet once the administration itself depends on the participation of smaller parties, then you get into the bind that Bibi is in now.I'm no expert on Israeli politics, but Netanyahu, while certainly right wing, does not strike me as a religious extremist. I would question his level of observance/religious outlook and I do not group him in with e.g Kach although I understand the relationship between the two groups is nuanced and do share some common goals. — BitconnectCarlos
Stop here.I dislike comparisons between the IRA conflict with Britain and the Israel-Palestine conflict. When 1200 are murdered I'm fine with shelling. I'm fine with air strikes.
Catholics and Protestants are the same religion. — BitconnectCarlos
if the IRA had killed 1200, then you would have been totally OK with air strikes — ssu
And I've stated from the start that then fight as the US did in Iraq. Do understand that killing a lot of civilians will refute and squash any victory you get from killing the terrorists. Stop with the genocidal rhetoric. The US would at the same time fight Sunni fighters and then take care of the civilian population. The saddest thing is that it actually beat the Al Qaeda, but then went away.The purpose is to draw world sympathy away from the State of Israel and to direct sympathy to the Palestinian people who endure but still support Hamas. — magritte
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