I understand your idea here and it's crossed my mind as well. I'm also not claiming to be a Middle East expert by any means.

But then all of Israel's neighbors have money and arms. And even ALL of them together have never been able to defeat Israel. — Foghorn

The issue here is that it's not just about armies - there's chemical and biological weapons as well.

Israel withdrawing from the WB -- apart from being a logistical headache and displacing hundreds of thousands would also pose a serious security threat to israel as missiles are now able to penetrate further into Israel and hit bigger population centers. Israel is significant less secure without the WB and even by your own admittance Israel just setting itself up to lash out against and reclaim more territory. I understand what you're saying though.

Ok, so what is the nature of the argument?

Palestinians want Jews out and full control of West Bank?

Jews vary in opinion from agreement, to moderate compromise, to full rejection?

If most Jews and most Palestinians could agree on anything, what might that be? — Foghorn

Many if not most Palestinians want Israel - as a Jewish governing body - gone entirely. The WB would just be a concession towards that goal. Many Palestinians I think would be fine with Jews being in the region as long as they're subordinate to Muslim governance which obviously makes Jews subjugated. The issue that many people don't realize is that Gaza and the WB are proxies - the main issue is and has always been the presence of a Jewish governing body that claims control of even one inch of Muslim land.

Um, who controls incoming and outgoing traffic in Gaza? Israel and Egypt, right? Are Gazans free to come and go as they like? Is commerce free to go in and out as it pleases? — Foghorn

If they're going across a border then Israel and Egypt control it, otherwise internally it's Hamas. It is Hamas who is hunting down and executing gays, it is Hamas who is arresting grassroots peace activists in Gaza, it is Hamas who is subjugating women and allowing them no freedoms. There are definitely restrictions on imports and that does make life harder for the Gazans. It's not a good situation but I think both Israel and Egypt have serious security concerns over Hamas.

The politicians have vested interests in the continuing conflict.
The people on the ground need to make their own existential decisions on how to live a peaceful life.
Civilians are the peace process. — Mystic

:100:

Ok, fair enough. But is residence the same as being the rulers? As example, the native people of North America were here at least 10,000 years before Europeans arrived. Should the continent be turned back over to their control due to that history? Where do such historical claims end? — Foghorn

When it comes to the West Bank Israel controls part of it and the palestinians control part of it. They have it organized so that Israel only governs Israelis and the Palestinians govern their own people. West Bank is definitely significantly better than Gaza. Jews have been living in the WB for centuries at least, continuously, and they want to be governed by other Jews.

What's the media situation in Israel? Are there hard right and hard left channels feeding the fire for profit, as is the case here? — Foghorn

I'm not entirely sure since I don't live in Israel but I do have family who does. I have spent time there but I wasn't watching the news.

Can you agree that there is a segment of the Israeli population (don't know percent) that has imperialist ambitions for land that has belonged to others for quite some time? — Foghorn

Yes, there are extremist Zionists who I regard as a problem. There are extremists on both sides and they both work off each other - one side says or does something inflammatory and the worst part of the other side responds. I'm all in favor of de-escalation, the only question is are the politicians?

Well, Israel isn't apartheid in relation to Christians, but in relation to Palestinians. — Foghorn

The Palestinians in Gaza are not part of Israel, thus they can't be under "apartheid." They are part of their own separate region, and there are no Israeli settlements or soldiers in Gaza, it is run by Hamas. Israel does monitor imports to screen out weapons. Jews have also been in the West Bank for thousands of years and I don't think it's fair to ask us to leave.

Judaism is not a race nor are Arabs. It makes no sense to call Israel racist against Arabs. If Israel is apartheid why do Arab Christians do quite well in Israel?

There is no solution to be had if both sides don't agree on the facts. — Benkei

You're not going to get that -- welcome to the Middle East. You are never going to get your request here. To think that anyone can come from outside to set all the facts and all the history straight is white man savior syndrome. You would need to stamp out the Jewish narrative entirely. Are you ready to do that? And don't tell me this is only about the "Zionists" because the Jewish community is virtually all Zionist.

My point is that it's always irrelevant not just because we're on a philosophy forum. — Benkei

It all depends on the framework that you approach the conflict with. If your entire goal is to bash one side, sure you'll take material or arguments or facts from anywhere -- doesn't matter. All ammo is good ammo.

If your approach is to find a solution, then these other personal ideas do matter as they can be counterproductive to a solution.

Bankei, I'm agreeing with you. Read my post again.

Sigh. Even if it was an accurate personal attack it is still irrelevant. — Benkei

It's irrelevant from a purely philosophical standpoint, but in the world of practical action something like this is very relevant. The problem with political issues like this is that they're not purely philosophical issues and cannot be with all of their complexity and real-world messiness, but since we're on a philosophy forum we typically try to stick to a philosophical framework which creates tension especially when the discussion at hand is by no means purely philosophical in nature.

Yes, obviously there hasn't been enough death there... — ssu

The essential divide in this issue is between those who are out for blood and those who actually seek solutions. No one here is saying that Israel is an angel.

yeah they're all basically the same everyone is hitler.

Israel's savage, violent, oppression justifies resistance of the oppressed Palestinian people "by any means necessary", including terrorism. — 180 Proof

I just couldn't help myself.

Hey 180 are you a man? Straight? Able-bodied? Neurotypical? Do you have savings? A place to live? Any speech problems? Why do you uphold and reinforce systems of oppression? Don't tell me you don't. Why do you viciously, savagely, brutally, repeatedly oppress others when you uphold and reinforce these systems? You want to see the evil oppressor? Look in the mirror. I hope someone rips your face off and as they're doing so they remind you it's because they're fighting oppression "by any means necessary." It would be perfectly justified and also hilarious. One more dead oppressor = less oppression, let that sink in.

But it quite clearly is. Every time the "right to self defence" is exercised by killing children as "collateral damage". — Benkei

Collateral damage is an inevitability of war/military conflict and not the same thing morally as intentional murder. Even when the allies targeted Nazi military bases children were killed because children live on military bases. There is literally no way to avoid civilian casualties, it's always just a matter of how many. Even though children end up dead in both cases, the is no moral equivalence.

Said the same guy defending killing Palestinian children as collateral damage. — Benkei

If collateral damage has moral equivalence to intentional murder then FDR and Churchill are basically Hitler. Virtually every government that has ever been at war for whatever reason is evil and illegitimate.

In your failure to condemn Israel — Benkei

I'll criticize Israel on multiple occasions, it's you who refuses to strongly criticize any of the Palestinian movements.

If murdering Palestinian children is permitted then obviously the murder of Israeli children works be too or Dutch ones for that matter. — Benkei

a) The intentional murder of Palestinian children is not permitted morally and is not a practice of the Israeli government. 180 took one statement out of context.

b) Even if the intentional murder of palestinian children was condoned by the Israeli government (which would obviously make the Israeli government illegitimate and evil) even then the intentional murder of Israeli children would remain a deep moral crime.

I don't know why basic morality is so difficult for people to understand.

At no point where 5-year old children of Nazis "valid targets."

Don't tell me you wouldn't react in the same way if someone told you that Dutch children (including your own) were valid targets. It's not my fault you have zero empathy for Israeli civilians so no need to lash out.

If Palestinian children (of "David") are valid targets, then Israeli children (of "Goliath") also must be valid targets. — 180 Proof

Yeah, this was all I needed to hear. As long as you believe this you're an enemy of the Jewish people and I'm not engaging with you. There's no way around this truth.

Even Jewish holocaust victims would not have been justified going after random Germans or murdering the children of Nazi war criminals. Do you know why? Because many of them recognized that they were bound by moral principles and responsibilities at all times and they knew that God was watching. God does not give victims blank checks to set the world on fire. You quote all this bullshit when you can't even follow very basics of the systems that you draw from.

But seriously I can't engage with you as long as you condone (and that's exactly what you're doing) the murder of my people. Bye.

If you feel like re-joining civilization or morality at some point let me know.

Then you've quite clearly not paid attention. — Benkei

Maybe I haven't; I'm not perfect. I just remember last time I tried to get you to condemn terrorist groups for intentionally targeting civilians you wouldn't (?) (or maybe there was just some hesitation?) I've never claimed to have a perfect memory and maybe you've moderated your positions over time. I'm happy to revisit this.

If you want to unequivocally condemn the intentional indiscriminate murder of civilians by terrorist groups then welcome back to the side of humanity. Welcome back to the discussion. Because if not you are getting what I wrote to 180 in the first few paragraphs of this post.

I wasn't even talking to you, Benkei, but in any case it's the same thing with you - the refusal to condemn the "victim."

This isn't about me at all by the way. I don't care if you think I'm a literal Nazi when this entire time all I've been trying to do (unsuccessfully) is to get 180 to condemn the intentional murder of Israeli civilians by Hamas & other groups.

At this point I've given up and approached it from a different angle.

Hey 180, you're a man, right? What if an abused woman assaulted you because you reminded her of someone? I guess we just refuse to condemn her; how could anyone ever criticize such a victim? She's certainly faced oppression (if not genocide!) by men. Guess you're SOL here.

The owners or their representatives, aka not employees. — Judaka

Are you talking about the CEO? How about the board of directors? The board of directors act on behalf of investors. This is not totalitarianism where the owner can do whatever he wants.

I get that Israelis want to have their own country, that's very understandable, especially given the history. The problem is, it's a very small country. A very smart country, but still very small, and surrounded by enemies. Israel has to win every single day. Israeli's enemies only need to win once. — Foghorn

Your genuine concern here is a breath of fresh air in this thread. Thanks for the input.

— Judaka

The employer makes all the important decisions, they wield absolute authority - similarly, — Judaka

Please clarify this. Who are you talking about? The founder? CEO? The person interviewing you for the job? The hiring manager who approves the applicant? Or are you talking about just the entire company as an abstract entity? Maybe the board?

I'm not interested in discussing the morality of employers, only the ethics of the system. — Judaka

Well "the system" starts with a job offer in a free market.

That is a damn good question and I'm not sure how to answer. My own convictions on the topic are grounded by my theism, but in addition morality can't just be an abstract project it needs to be practiced and honed. We need to train this capacity for moral fortitude or moral courage. I'm fully aware that it's one thing for one to talk about a noble death but a whole other thing to go through with it. To go through with it requires serious discipline and conviction.

Yeah, and the issue in real life is that people claim "necessity" as a way to avoid moral responsibility... repeatedly.

Even if someone could reasonably be expected to be killed for refusing an order, does that give them a blank check to follow all orders in order to stay alive? Society needs to bring back the idea of a noble death.

I feel that is a quandary in itself though: the permission to do or advance evil for personal gain, even if that's to put food on the table. I appreciate that, depending on where and when you live, you might have to choose between ethics and eating, and I would be sympathetic to someone swallowing the former to swallow the latter, which is why we should not have a society that forces people to choose. — Kenosha Kid

Yeah, it would depend on the nature of the immorality, no? Polluting is different from murder or theft. How would you treat someone who scammed a family member out of thousands of dollars but then told you that he was doing it to put food in his table? Is that really the only way to survive? Doubtful.

I was making an explanation since you seemed to be under the impression that the boss controls how all tasks are done.

My point was that in these delegations of power - even under Hitler - people within those ranks of bureaucracy have latitude and real decisions to make. Middle management are not mindless automatons mindlessly following orders. The way you phrase things is like only the head boss has agency and everyone else just follows his orders. It's not reflective of reality at all. An order or a regulation is far from actual performance and execution.

Anyway, back to an earlier question: Is it immoral for me to offer you a job? Is it abusive?

By necessity, the employer must delegate tasks but how these tasks are performed and judged, the authority and resources they have, are all things he decides. I'm not interested in democratising the power of a shift supervisor, the decisions they make don't interest me. What's your game here anyway Carlos? Why do you care so much about capitalism that you're willing to resort to these absurd tactics to defend it? — Judaka

This isn't about capitalism, this is about how organizations work. Any organization. The boss cannot know and does not know all the features of those little jobs making the bureaucrat the de facto expert there. The further down the chain the more clueless the boss is. I was in the military for 6 years -- an insanely hierarchical organization - and I can tell you that there is no way the Colonels or the Generals (who are far from the real bosses anyways, the real boss is Biden) have that close daily understanding of what's going on in offices. The day-to-day management is enacted and enforced by the equivalent of middle-management and there's layers of authority even within that. Yes, these middle management have strong ad hoc authority and they can make your life hell without even speaking with a Colonel. That's power.

Look into the de facto/de jure distinction.

Middle management and supervisors control how tasks are completed.

Gaza city doesn't matter because I'm asking you about murdered Jews.

Just own up that you don't care about murdered Jews as long as they're Israeli/Zionist.

My own attitudes towards Gaza city matter zero. this isn't about me.

Take a good long look at Gaza City and answer your own damn question. :point:

"עַיִן בְּעַיִן שֵׁן בְּשֵׁן"

https://www.i24news.tv/en/news/israel/1623175593-2-former-israeli-ambassadors-to-south-africa-accuse-jewish-state-of-aparthei — 180 Proof

I have no idea what "take a good long look at Gaza city means." Gaza city doesn't matter. I am asking you about murdering israelis. stay on topic.

I didn't bother to translate the second line because I don't speak hebrew and I don't see the need to introduce it unless you're just trying to sound fancy. if you want to translate it for me because it answers me question then go ahead.

I'm not engaging with you until I hear whether Israeli teenagers out on a Saturday night or random people in a coffee shop qualify as "Goliath" or "Israel" and are therefore valid targets.

It does seem reasonable to question the rationality of a long oppressed people seeking a safe home in one of the most dangerous neighborhoods on Earth. This seems equivalent to me, a relatively well off old white man, choosing to move to a ghetto on the south side of Chicago because my ancestors lived there thousands of years ago. It just doesn't make a lot of sense. — Foghorn

Sure, we can question it in hindsight. We're in a pretty big mess in the Middle East, but Israel was created in 1948 and it's 2021. We can entertain theoretical discussions about whether Israel should have been created in the first place, but it's now a country of 9 million and there is no possibility of Israel just packing up and leaving. We need to ask ourselves how we best move forward from here in a way that's acceptable and fair to both sides.

During one of the previous shootouts with Hamas I spent about a month in the comment section of the Jerusalem post, where I claimed that Israelis were choosing a particular piece of land over the safety of their children. That's the reality I see. — Foghorn

I would need to hear that reasoning flushed out a bit more to comment on it.

When I become President of the United States I will extend US citizenship to every Israeli and invite them to come live with us, where nobody is firing rockets at Jews. They would be such a great asset to the United States. This won't work of course, but the invitation should be made anyway. — Foghorn

I have no problem with this. I'm well aware that there's risk in Israel and rockets do hit places, but again neither side is going anywhere.

Please stay on topic. We're talking about the murder of Israeli citizens. The fact that you're not giving me a straight answer speaks for itself.

I also don't read hebrew.

Violence of the oppressed ("David" ~ Gaza, WB) against the violent oppressor ("Goliath" ~ Israel) I support. :fire: — 180 Proof

Do Israeli teenagers out on a Saturday night count as "Israel" or "Goliath?" How about random Israelis in coffee shops?

I'm not black. — James Riley

LOL I must have misread you somewhere! Ok lol.

I don't know what to make of your response to my post. I have been arguing the exact opposite of having anyone in the non-oppressed community trying to "connect and reach out" to anyone in the oppressed community. I'm talking about those in the oppressor community reaching out to the oppressors and trying to work with them. In other words, "woke" whites should be schooling other "non-woke" whites. — James Riley

In order for this to happen white allies need to take direction from black communities. We absolutely need this coordination to happen before whites go out and do this type of work. Whites are not to be operating independently.

It would be level, or a whole lot leveler if we would have, after the Civil War, dealt with the enemy in this way: All former slave-owning properties were given to former slaves; All children of former slave-owners were taken from their families and removed to a school in Carlisle, PA for re-education; All wives and old men of former slave-owners were shipped off to distant Reservations to become dependent wards of the government; All former slave-owning men were forced into indentured servitude under their former slaves for a period of years; All proven sympathizers of slavery and/or former slave-owners were subject to the same treatment; All those who resisted were hung or shot. — James Riley

This is unjust. Justice must occur on an individual level - children of slaveholders are not guilty and should not be stripped from their parents. No more breaking apart families. Two wrongs don't make a right. Justice cannot be carried out on a group level like that. I can't tell where you're getting your idea of justice from.

Very suave of you to avoid my last question.

I have no idea what you're talking about. What is your attitude towards intentional violence towards Israeli civilians? Do you condemn it? Yes or no.

This is all I need to hear. You're either on the side of humanity or you are on the side of evil.

"Condone" disingenuously exaggerates my position — 180 Proof

Then please clarify.

To be anti-zionist is to support the disappearance/vanishment of Israel which sounds like murder to most ears. Israel is already here; you can't question the existence or demand the non-existence of something that's already here.

Moral integrity? Moral integrity? You condone Hamas' terror attacks, you don't get to tell me about moral integrity.

I only question whether you really actually believe yourself. Is it cool with you when a suicide bomber walks into a night club in Tel Aviv and kills dozens of young people? Of course it is! Gotta fight Goliath!
Go punch an Israeli baby in the head - just fighting Goliath. I'm not even offended anymore, you just divide the entire world into good guys vs bad guys and sometimes the bad guys are children but who cares just kill them anyway; individuals don't matter only groups matter.

An onanist like you? Sure you do, BC. We all do. But especially you. — 180 Proof

I actually misspoke here and I wanted to correct this.

You're not a racist, you're just a psycho. I thought you were a racist because you have no issues with Hamas murdering Israeli/Jewish families (gotta give it right back to the oppressor), but then when you said you'd more or less be fine with your own family being murdered if they were in the oppressor class I just decided to leave you alone.

You'd like us if we were dead, 180. You love dead Jews (or subjugated ones), they can't oppress anyone -- perfectly harmless, just like everyone should be! :nerd:

Not dealing with your bullshit feels so good. :cool:

I don't interact with racists, period.