Please do tell me more about rights. Is there a right to build terror tunnels packed with munitions all across Gaza? A right to murder one's neighbor for the crime of being Jewish or Israeli? What would Nietzsche say about that?

Ah - now I get it. I wasn't sure how to phrase this. The history of this region is immensely complicated with many different threads (as with most history) - but there was a large number of people who had deep family and cultural roots in the geographic area that was called Palestine - these roots went back many hundreds of years. These people eventually called themselves Palestinians. So what phrase do you use to call these folks? I'm up for suggestions. — EricH

It really is; I totally get it. I think the problem comes when Jews are no longer understood to be Palestinians but rather something foreign. I think if we wish to make things clearer, we would just refer to Jews, Christians, and Muslims.

Arabs were undoubtedly in the land in the 19th and 20th centuries. I would just question the "indigenous" labeling.

The irony here is that atheist, secular historians highly doubt the Jews were ever slaves. — Count Timothy von Icarus

Exodus generally has a folkloric quality about it. You'd be hard-pressed to find a biblical scholar who defends the idea of a 1.5-2 million person exodus from Egypt in the 13th century BC. Some scholars, such as Richard Friedman, make the case for a smaller exodus

IIRC, an Alexandrian Egyptian priest named Manetho in the 3rd century argued that Moses and a group of his followers were actually expelled from Egypt due to leprosy, among other reasons. I doubt we'll ever know the truth.

Canaan is not part of Arabia. Therefore, by definition, there cannot be an "indigenous Arab population" in Canaan.

There have always been non-Israelites/non-Jews in Canaan. So are the Jebusites or the Perizzites of the Bible the "Palestinians?" Do you think that they knew that? Who exactly are these "Palestinians?" and why can't Jews be Palestinians? Kinda funny how that turns out.

And if they're Arabs, then why not just call them Arabs?

Name one what? American or visaed deportee?

These people are given documents, but their rights are not equivalent to those of citizens. You seem hazy about what those rights exactly are as well. Trump is doing what is legal.

They are guests in this country. If you allowed me to sleep in your living space, would you be intolerant if you kicked me out if I tore up the furniture? Or if I openly supported those who kidnapped and killed citizens of your community? Whenever the example is personal, these things become more apparent. I'm an American. America is my home. I don't like inviting guests into my home who proceed to destroy it or advocate its destruction.

And yes, they've destroyed universities across the country. They've caused millions in property damage to buildings, screamed down speakers, and disrupted learning environments by barging into active classrooms and screaming their heads off about Palestine.

It is American to have tolerance and to be nice to guests, but it is also American to stand up for oneself when our hospitality is being taken advantage of.

*How do you know that no Americans have been deported? Did Trump tell you? — tim wood

How do we know there's no innocent men in prison right now? Guess we should abolish prisons.

We aren't deporting Americans; we are deporting guests in this country who are invited in and proceed to spit in the face of their hosts. I mean deporting the ones on visas. The ones who were graciously allowed into this country to study at top universities and utilize the resources of this country, and then end up destroying those very institutions through riots and crimes. The ones who protest in support of designated terrorist organizations that capture, torture, and kill Americans.

I'm having an alright day. Whenever @ssu posts colorful pictures and comics, my day is never really bad.

Between BLM, harassing Jewish students on campus, campus riots, and this wave of Tesla vandalism, it couldn't be more apparent to me that Democrats are the party of violence. America is taking notice, and Democrat approval ratings are at historic lows.

Anyway, on with the deportations of foreign agitators :ok:

Source? Philo, right? Show me the passage.

There were primative monasteries to Christianity which radical followers of Judaism would meet in on the Sabbath and worship: namely the Therapeutae. — DifferentiatingEgg

Did they worship Jesus in these "monasteries?" Or were they just doing worship which others came to associate with Christian worship?

"the wretched are alone the good; the poor, the weak, the lowly, are alone the good; the suffering, the needy, the sick, the loathsome, are the only ones who are pious, the only ones who are blessed, for them alone is salvation — Nietzsche, Genealogy of Morals § 7, First Essay

Not at all Jewish, but closer to the message of the gospels. Some Christians do consider Jesus as "peak Judaism" though so it could fit. But are there are too many strong, rich, and proud Jews who are loved and respected for this to be the case. Wealth is often seen as divine blessing.

but you, on the other hand, you aristocrats, you men of power, you are to all eternity the evil, the horrible, the covetous, the insatiate, the godless; eternally also shall you be the unblessed, the cursed, the damned! — Nietzsche, Genealogy of Morals § 7, First Essay

Godless and hedonistic men of power do get a bad rap, but that's because they're godless and hedonistic, not because they're wealthy.

What do you think Nietzsche would make of the great nobility, wealth and grandeur of King David and Solomon? Or how it is written "How beautiful are your tents, O Jacob; how lovely are your homes, O Israel!" (Num. 24:5).

Yet beautiful Saul is replaced by ruddy David. So beauty is recognized as not a good method for choosing a king. David is also the smallest of his brothers and the least impressive. There you go. The hatred of beauty.

A lot can be found in the OT and even more can be interpreted. And the job is considerably easier if you ignore content that contradicts your thesis.

Indeed, and the idea that the wretched, slaves, etc. were in their place precisely because they were wicked was obviously a popular opinion amongst the ancient Jews, since so many texts feel the need to weigh in on it. — Count Timothy von Icarus

You say obviously, but I've read a fair bit of ancient Jewish lit and this isn't really a theme that appears much if at all. The stronger theme is caring for the poor and not all poor are presumed to be wicked. Elijah was poor, but pious. Some of the Talmudists were poor, but this is treated sympathetically. It is a great mitzvah to help them, but yes, wealth is treated as a blessing. Jewish tradition is naturally self-reflective, so if misfortune strikes it is natural to look for reasons.

I will give Nietzsche the benefit of the doubt here though and assume he is not primarily thinking of the fairly warrior-centric Hebrew culture of Joshua and Judges though, and more of later periods. The problem though is that Maccabees isn't that different. — Count Timothy von Icarus

Josephus frequently describes the Hasmoneans as "noble" and often mentions their beauty. Herod's wife was a Hasmonean and she wasn't shy about it. The Herodians hated her. A noble and proud people, indeed. But there was no true counter-force in terms of values.

I suspect Nietzsche is taking certain biblical ideas, ignoring evidence to the contrary, and then overstating these ideas and then attributing them to a shadowy priestly class. Then he situates this shadowy priestly class against a noble and proud aristocracy to form his history/genealogy.

Man, I'm just trying to step into your world, that's all. Learn a bit about the Jews.

So I guess it goes something like this: The slaves in Egypt start their values revolution and begin hating all things noble and beautiful and strong. ~1400 years later at the time of Jesus this is what the Pharisees are. The Pharisees also detest beauty and strength as they are the ancestors of these slaves.

But Jesus doesn't. Jesus tells them to not build a value system based on resentment and the Pharisees hate that so they persecute him.

Is that the gist of it?

Ok so during their time in slavery the Jews began hating all that is beautiful and noble.

I'll stop here because I know better than to question your Bible.

(My Bible is a little more open to questioning btw but I digress...)

I'm not asking for a specific date. Can you put it within a century or two? Or just give me a name of a biblical figure.

It was the Jews who, in opposition to the aristocratic equation (good = aristocratic = beautiful = happy = loved by the gods), dared with a terrifying logic to suggest the contrary equation, and indeed to maintain with the teeth of the most profound hatred (the hatred of weakness) this contrary equation, namely, "the wretched are alone the good; the poor, the weak, the lowly, are alone the good; the suffering, the needy, the sick, the loathsome, are the only ones who are pious, the only ones who are blessed, for them alone is salvation — Nietzsche, Genealogy 7

Sounds more like the Gospel to me.

In any case, I would love to ask Nietzsche when the Jews began espousing such a message. Given that I don't see this message anywhere in the Hebrew Bible when did it begin? If the Jews hate that which is noble why did they have wealthy and noble kings?

When did this hating of the beautiful begin again?

You write as if you work in an IDF command center. :roll:

How would you know the breakdown between innocent civilian and plain clothed terrorist in a group in Gaza?

But you just said yourself they have no clue where the terrorists are. — Tzeentch

I didn't say that. Israeli intel can still locate and target them even if they aren't in uniform.

No there's a target/terrorist in mind with these strikes. A hospital becomes a legitimate target if it's being used for military purposes.

No, Israel targets terrorists who embed themselves in civilian populations. These terrorists often do not wear uniforms. It is not the deliberate murder of innocents. If Israel deliberately murdered innocents we'd see a lot more dead.

This I get. But what does Trump have to do with it? As to Palestinians, what do you suppose - or maybe you know - what the average Palestinian thinks about the last few years? — tim wood

Trump is the greatest friend Israel has ever had in the Presidency and has consistently labeled Hamas and its supporters as wicked.

Those who understand the deliberate murder of innocent civilians as "resistance" or as being justified in some sense are disqualified from further opinions. Their views place them outside of civilization.

You really know nothing about the man, do you. — tim wood

You obsess over Trump. I obsess over the anti-American, anti-Israeli hate mobs destroying our universities, indoctrinating our youth, and spreading Jew-hate and violence across the Western world.

If 1200 of your people were massacred a few years ago and much of the world cheered or excused it as "resistance" your perspective would be different.

Why? How? — tim wood

Because he is pro-Israel, pro-bitcoin, and pro-Tesla. Because he deports those who come here on visas and spit in the face of the country that welcomes in them. I like him because he's serious about cutting waste and challenges unaccountable corrupt organizations. I like that he's serious about border security, unlike the Democrats. I like he doesn't try to "both sides" the current Israel-Palestine war. He can actually recognize evil, which is rare in the US, and in the world, today.

He correctly recognizes that the main maladies facing the nation are lawlessness, social and moral confusion, and Islam.

Henry Ford was an entrepreneur - not something I would necessarily associate with manliness. — Tzeentch

I'm no fan of Ford. Nor am I overly familiar with his career. Yet he surely took financial risk and effectively led men below him. He also compensated his workers well, but that to me seems a mix of altruism and self-interest, perhaps more of the latter as he desired his employees to be able to buy his vehicles.

If effectively & successfully leading men below you isn't "masculine" then I'm not totally sure what we're counting as masculine.

-

I associate dark femininity more with Lady MacBeth - relentless manipulation of MacBeth & challenging his manhood, unbridled ambition, and complete lack of morality.

Honest cooperation tends to only occur among the latter, though. — javra

Among women? Never heard that one. I was under the impression that honest cooperation is entirely feasible among both sexes.

We can change all the bathrooms to gender neutral. We can make locker rooms gender neutral too. We can get rid of all gendered spaces (biologically-based). We can let people change their documents so that names and sex have zero relation to reality. After all, reality is clearly decided by the individual, not nature or anything external to that individual. :roll:

I love my trans brothers and sisters, but certain challenges arise.

I would have no problem telling TG girls (who have had the prior physical benefit of testosterone) they weren't allowed to participate in girls sports, because this is unfair to biological girls. — Relativist

How do you feel about them in women's locker rooms? Or restrooms? Maybe it would matter how long they've been transitioning and what their results are? There's no easy answers. It's not Trump's fault. It's the difficulties inherent in trans life. Some people will transition for years and still not be passable.

I'm reading:

Antiquities of the Jews - Josephus
Book of Jubilees - Jewish Annotated Apocrypha

Antiquities of the Jews is a must read for anyone interested in this subject. You simply won't find this depth and this coverage of history elsewhere; relating to the Jews, that is. I'm coming to the end of it, but afterwards I will absolutely be going on to The Jewish War. This book contains one of the earliest Jesus references as well.

Yeah, perhaps mate. But I would ask the Rota Inquisition court to act in a less malicious manner than Jews do in Palestine. — javi2541997

In Palestine? What is Palestine to you? So you support the war but want it less vicious?

Bedtime, Carlitos. It is important to sleep early so you will not miss the catechesis exam tomorrow. :wink: — javi2541997

Javi, I would never be able to fall asleep knowing that there are toxic elements among us. Perhaps we need an Inquisition into the matter? :chin:

My point was not backing Gregory but protesting that there are folks who are also toxic like a rotten swamp. — javi2541997

Oh no, and who are those toxic individuals so we can do something about them?

Trump's actions haven't solved those problems, it ignores them. For example, where SHOULD a transgender person go to the bathroom? — Relativist

This problem is intractable. You'd honestly want Trump to legislate on this? It's too thorny. Let the passable transwomen go into the women's restroom and the ones that don't pass into the men's, but of course it's never so easy because passing is subjective and subject to change.

Re: the military- drill them with their biological sex. Trump has denied them the right to serve at all. — Relativist

A judged blocked it. In any case, I would not want e.g. Blaire White or Nikita Dragon training with the men. Estrogen also causes one to lose muscle. Even if it didn't the thought of men showering and changing with transgender women is insane.

Not sure what you are referring to. My view is that they shouldn't be discriminated against. This doesn't mean a trans-woman should be treated identically to a biological woman. — Relativist

You aren't familiar with the view that one's gender identity should be respected? "Trans women are women" is a common slogan. If you're carving out another category for them you're not as progressive as you might think.

The prohibition against eating from the tree of knowledge is indeed puzzling. I think though, that we can zoom out, and say that the eden story presents us with a conception of reality where reality itself is wonderful and for mankind to enjoy and to flourish, yet there are certain rules that one must follow for it to endure.

Song of Solomon uses much edenic imagery; so perhaps through love we re-enter Eden in a way.

But does God command them because they yield good results or do they only yield good results because God comannded them? Or, perhaps, are they a set of criteria for assessing what a good life is? — Ludwig V

I think the commandments are good in-themselves for Israel to follow and they generally bring about good results. Mosaic law is particular to Israel. Yet God also gives 7 laws to Noah intended for all of humanity way before Moses.

Yet before any of this Cain commits murder. Both Cain and God know that it is wrong. This would seem to imply a universal pre-existent moral order. Here we hear of the land being "defiled" through Cain's deed and how Abel's blood "cries out" to God from the ground. There's a lot to unpack here. And rules go back all the way to Eden.

The Mosaic commandments essentially give Israel their identity.

The only legitimate issue I see is sports participation — Relativist

Did you forget about locker rooms? Among others.

Then you have bathrooms. And prisons. And if we're talking military service, which group do transgender recruits go with? The men or the women? Or do they get their own personal drill instructors? I know some wonderful transgender people, but the idea that all gender identities simply must be respected on the legal level will usher in chaos.

Less that 4% of violent crimes are committed by undocumented immigrants. This is another case of Trump leveraging bias for political gain.

Still too much. That figure should be at 0.