Netanyahu has no right to speak of deradicalizing anyone. He's a radical himself. Hamas is his baby. The murder of Yitzhak Rabin is his brain child. The death of Israel will be in large part his doing. — Tzeentch

aaannd we've entered into conspiracy theory territory. Or is Netanyahu actually Meir Kahane in disguise, back from the dead?

But I guess it's convenient to portray Israel as the little guy facing off a huge powerful menace. — ssu

It very well can be; it depends on the scale. Are we talking just the IDF vs Hamas? Then obviously no. But what if it's Israel versus the muslim world/those who strive to spread Islam? Then it does start to look a bit like that.

Israel's survival should not be taken as a given. Jews know very well that the unthinkable can happen and the world will very much let it happen. Israel as a state is still a baby.

Regarding anti-semitism, the scale of it is shocking if you look at the stats. Cultural factors have me worried as well. Jews are the canary in the coal mine.

The PLA and Hamas are roughly of equal shittiness. The PLA has a martyrs fund that pays out funds to the families of those who kill Israelis. I don't hate the strategy of playing the two against each other. Both strive to destroy Israel.

Still shrugging off the intentional murder, kidnapping and rape of innocents because they happened to be born Israeli as "resistance against Israel" while palestinian victims are the greatest tragedy known to humanity? Classy.

Blame Hamas for militarizing schools, homes and hospitals and endangering their population. There was no need for destruction to be this widespread, but when an enemy does not wear a uniform and militarizes their entire population neutralizes comes at a cost. Hamas commits constant war crimes and indiscriminately murders, while Israel allows in aid and takes comprehensive steps to minimize casualties.

https://www.economist.com/united-states/2023/12/07/one-in-five-young-americans-thinks-the-holocaust-is-a-myth

Although in their propaganda they say that it's them who are on the verge of being wiped out. — ssu

Antisemitism has once again become normalized; Jews are seen as the oppressors by 2/3 in Gen Z and 1 in 5 in Gen Z believe the holocaust to be a myth. The First Minister of Scotland gave a holocaust address where he never once mentioned Jews. We have seen the erasure of Jewish suffering since 10/7 with everything being deserved because Jews are deemed the oppressors. Hostage posters torn down. Jewish restaurants destroyed and terrorized around the world. Some of the older Jews have compared this environment to the 1930s -- not a second holocaust, but scary.

It's almost like they don't really believe a genocide is going on.
— RogueAI

No. — Mikie

I encourage you to read Judge Sebutide's view.

https://www.icj-cij.org/node/203449

"During the oral proceedings in the present case, it was brought to the attention of the Court that South Africa, and in particular certain organs of government, have enjoyed and continue to enjoy a cordial relationship with the leadership of Hamas. If that is the case, then one would encourage South Africa as a party to these proceedings and to the Genocide Convention, to use whatever influence they might wield, to try and persuade Hamas to immediately and unconditionally release the remaining hostages, as a good will gesture. I have no doubt that such a gesture of good will would go a very long way in defusing the current conflict in Gaza."

Some might call it western paternalism to liken the palestinians (or Hamas) to children or dogs.

Once again: understand what an analogy is. Everybody understands beating a dog just makes it aggressive; this is no different than people. Why abused kids often become abusers, why dangerous neighbourhoods raise dangerous people.

And you have it reversed. Their actions result in who's better or worse. It's because Israel had no rights to the occupied territory, so armed resistance is just. It's Israel having collectively punished Gazans for decades. It's a matter of applying legal and moral principles as a result of which Israel is much worse than Hamas. Any tragedy visited in Israeli citizens is by their own making, Jews sacrificed on the Zionist altar.

I understand that you're making an analogy. In your analogies, you repeatedly metaphorize Palestinians are dogs and/or children while Israel is metaphorized as an adult.

Interesting how you describe Israel in the collective abstract, i.e. an impersonal state, while you write of the opposite side as "Gazans" i.e. actual people who are victimized.

Except I'm not. As I've stated before I don't condone all their methods. But nuance is difficult. The point is, why don't you demand Israel to deradicalise their insane colonisation policy, apartheid regime and war crime tactics? No, in your mind, Hamas and PA need to take steps to become peace loving hippies while being ethnically cleansed by their neighbours. It's an idiotic ask. When Israel stops its crimes, then you can expect these things. — Benkei

It's become apparent to me that the palestinians could do anything -- any number of beheadings, rapes, murders, tortures, paying the families of those who kill Israelis -- and you'd say something like "I don't condone this" and that would be the end of it. I think it's because you view it in terms of group dynamics -- palestinians good, israel bad -- so anyone under the palestinian banner can only be so bad given they're on the right team/side. And you seemingly compare them to dogs biting an abusive master 2 pages back.

So when a Palestinian cheers an Israeli death, it's not the same thing. If an Israeli is killed in this conflict, it's not the same thing. To interpret the violence between these two groups as morally equivalent is wilfully ignoring context. — Benkei

I've noticed that you repeatedly liken palestinians to dogs or children. Given this is the case, how can one believe that they're ready of self-rule? The international community ought to set them a proper bedtime.

But yeah, it's not the same thing when a dog kills a person versus when an adult willfully murders a child even if the child is throwing pebbles.

If that's what the palestinians are then you're right on the money. I was silly enough to assign them responsibility.

Hamas isn't the Palestine state, just like Hezbollah isn't Lebanon. — ssu

Hamas is the de facto government of Gaza and were voted in democratically. If elections were held in the WB, Hamas would win. I want to believe that Hamas is not the voice of the palestinians, but they quite likely are.

Even the "moderate" PLO has the martyr fund where they pay families of those martyrs who kill Jews.

Who is the leader of your race/religion? Who do I go to if I need to speak to, e.g., the leader of the black people? Take me to your leader so you can become blameworthy through him.

According to wikipedia Palestine is a state. If so, it is a state that Israel is at war with. It is a state that claims all of the West Bank and East Jerusalem.

It makes no sense to me how the Palestinians, a group which only gains its identity in the 1960s, just magically have a right to the entire west bank. And of course the Jewish inhabitants of that region will be faced with genocide if such a thing actualized.

I don't know whether states can have rights, but there has been a continual Jewish presence in the WB since antiquity which ought to live under Jewish governance. Jewish roots and claims in that land go back thousands of years and Jews refuse to be dhimmis or ethnically cleansed under Arab rule.

Where are the ancient Palestinian claims to that land?

...and then has the occupied territories, where non-Jewish people are have different laws (military law) to the Jewish people there. In addition to that, it has laws like the 'Citizenship and Entry into Israel Law', which prohibits inhabitants of the West Bank and Gaza Strip ineligible for the automatic granting of Israeli citizenship and residency permits that are usually available through marriage to an Israeli citizen (i.e., family reunification).

But South Africa was too a democracy under the Apartheid era... to the whites. — ssu

"Occupied territories" is itself a misnomer. It implies the palestinians are entitled to 100% of the west bank which is a ridiculous idea. Is it non-Jewish people or non-Israeli citizens? My understanding is that Christians and Jews tend to get by the checkpoints better while palestinian muslims are held up at the checkpoints. In the WB Israelis are under Israeli law and Palestinians are under the law of the PA so yes the rules are different. There were fewer checkpoints before the intifatas and violence. Just today or yesterday the IDF did an operation in Tulkarm in the WB and found 400 explosives. It would be ridiculous to treat Israeli civilians like Palestinian ones security-wise.

Israeli arabs have equal rights under Israeli law. They are represented in government and hold high places across the society. Given that Jews were ethnically cleansed across the arab world ("judenrein"), what do you think of the comparison between the arab world and nazism?

Were black south african allowed to vote under apartheid? did they have political representation? the apartheid comparison is ridiculous.

Judaism is an ethnicity... it's an ethno-religion. It accepts converts but does not actively seek them out. There are many different sects.

Would be Assad or Raisi be representative for Arabs? When Assad kills 500,000 of his own people does that represent Arabs around the world? Netanyahu is the head of state in Israel and nothing more. He is not a rabbi. He holds no religious post. Jews are not blameworthy through his actions.

Personally I'd have a hard time living by a "master morality" that values noble birth, physical strength/size... if you have a disability in that society or you're of low birth or God forbid both you're just kinda fucked. You ever see 300? I can hardly blame that cripple for betraying the Spartans. What is his role in that society?

Judaism has a nice mix of slave and master elements to it imo. It is Christ who goes full throttle slave morality. There is something quite terrifying and powerful about slave morality. But the Church has tempered Christ's original message.

If the objectivity part of Judaism is what supposedly leads to hate and resentment then there's no need to single it out among the Abrahamics... Christianity and Islam contain objective claims as well as well as many other religious systems.

You are equivocating a people with a religious movement. I said the Jewish people. This is a racial group, it just happens to correspond also to the members of the Jewish religious group, but I was not referring to the members of the Jewish religious group, but to the racial group.

Who other than Netanyahu speaks for the Jewish people and to be more pertinent, who conducts foreign policy, provides security for this group? — Punshhh

Judaism is both a religion and a people, but not a race. One can't convert to a race, but one can convert to Judaism.

Who speaks for black people? Who speaks for the Arabs? No one has appointed Netanyahu "spokesperson for the Jews."

The vast majority of world Jewry did not vote for Netanyahu. There is a dangerous phenomenon emerging where Jews across the world are being targeted simply for being Jews due to this idea that Netanyahu represents all Jews.

But 85-90% of Jews are zionists and zionism is heavily embedded in Jewish culture. Jews will fight for their state because they're all too familiar with what happens without one.

My point was directed to Punshhh who stated that Netanyahu represents the Jewish people.

Israel has a diversity of parties in its Parliament and has Arab muslims represented on its judiciary as well. Israel has a considerable minority arab muslim population as well as christians and druze.

Which assertion in particular?

Judaism is also a religion with various sects/denominations. Within those sects/denominations there is leadership/authorities.

Then who does represent the Jewish people here? Ask someone in a neighbouring state who represents the Jewish people here?

Or do we have a vacuum of leadership/representation of the Jewish people? — Punshhh

Who represents the Protestants? Or the Muslims? Does the President of Iran represent the Shia and are all Shias answerable for his actions?

You've glossed over what i've said. Hamas is an interloper, not an actual Government and Ismail is not an actual head-of-state. I did point this out... — AmadeusD

I very much consider Hamas as the actual government of Gaza. If it's not Hamas, who is it? Haniyeh may not be head of a state, but he is head of a government. Hamas rules Gaza, not Israel. There were no Jews in Gaza prior to 10/7.

I find this wanting of fact. I do not see any clear-cut policy whereby this is actually happening. Particularly given the Israeli propensity to literally refer to Palestinians as animals and worthy of eradication.. — AmadeusD

They do not. Netanyahu has drawn a clear distinction between the wicked Hamas and innocent Palestinians (who are not to be intentionally targeted). The IDF has called off attacks due to civilians being in the area and there is footage of this. Yes Israel will target houses and hospitals because Hamas will militarize houses and hospitals, but Israel will provide aid to innocent Palestinians.

This doesn't have anything to do with which individuals are liable to be attacked. But i understand the emotional behind that fact. It just isn't what i've asked about. — AmadeusD

palestinian civilians are in danger because hamas wears no uniforms and blends in with the civilian population. Any IDF soldier who intentionally targets civilians is guilty of war crimes, but targeting houses which contain weapons and hamas operatives is not a war crime.

Not trying to stir anything up, but surely this kind of thinking also exculpates all Palestinians who would not be represented by Hamas? — AmadeusD

There are innocent Palestinians and there are guilty Palestinians. Some legitimate targets of war, others not. Israel does not indiscriminately target all Palestinians; Hamas will consider all Israelis legitimate targets for violence/death/kidnapping/rape.

I'm not pretending you don't see the distinction, but in the Israel case, Netanyahu is the actual head-of-state, not an interloper, which Hamas can be seen as. — AmadeusD

Netanyahu is the head of state, Hamas is the governing organization of Gaza. Ismail Haniyeh is the leader.

Surely, the proportionality question, comes, in some sense, down to who is actually liable to attack?

This is an armed conflict. Both sides attack. Hamas has launched thousands of rockets into Israel since 10/7.

As I see it, Israel has already lost and Netanyahu, who represents the Jewish people, in this, has blood on his hands. — Punshhh

Netanyahu does not represent the Jewish people. He is the prime minister of a state, not a religious authority.

Everyone has built on top of everyone else because buildings become dilapidated and lands change hands whether through sales or conquering. Israel preserves Muslim holy sites (the main ones, at least); fundamentalist Muslims have a very poor track record for preserving the holy sites of other groups. There are many mosques in Israel and virtually no synagogues in the Arab world.

And those Arab towns are built on Jewish ruins.

I also don't see an Israel that doesn't fully destroy Arab history and culture in greater Palestine — Benkei

wym by this? Arab culture or Islam? Do you see Israel banning falafel, tzatziki and hummus or Arab architecture? Or will zionist imperialists readily raze muslim holy sites (like the dome of the rock which Israel protected against Hamas's rockets) and build their Temple on its ruins? Like how dome of the rock lies on top of the ruins of the second temple.

I mean, that's one thing which would come under that banner, imo.

Unsure what you're intimating though, so will refrain from comment beyond that. — AmadeusD

Just trying to understand your position.

Israel could have killed 1200 hamas and stopped but hamas has promised to continuously repeat 10/7 so we'd just see more of the same. I get your position, but personally I have no qualms about going after the root of the problem -- the governing structure that is intent on the destruction of its neighbor because it's neighbor exists as an independent Jewish state and will happily murder civilians as a way of accomplishing this goal. All Jews in Israel are regarded as "Israel" and thus viable, fair targets for Hamas. What must be done to those who vow to murder innocent civilians? They must be killed.

‘The Axial Age, a term coined by the philosopher Karl Jaspers, refers to a pivotal period in human history, roughly between 800 and 200 BCE. This era was remarkable for its profound and simultaneous intellectual, philosophical, and religious transformations across various civilizations, including those in Greece, Persia, India, and China.

During the Axial Age, there was a significant shift in thought patterns, moving away from mythological frameworks towards more rational and abstract reasoning. This period saw the rise of some of the world's most enduring philosophies and religions: in Greece, the emergence of classical philosophy with figures like Socrates, Plato, and Aristotle; in Persia, the rise of Zoroastrianism; in India, the development of Buddhism and Jainism, as well as critical developments in Hinduism; and in China, the foundational teachings of Confucianism and Taoism.

The Axial Age is considered crucial in the history of humanity as it laid the foundational structures of thought and belief systems that continue to shape cultures and societies around the world.’

Most of what is considered ‘ancient wisdom’ is rooted in this period. And it endures. — Wayfarer

:up:

A good bulk of the Hebrew Bible is written and *nearly* completed in this period. We see the spread and transformation of monotheism in this period away from more anthropomorphized conceptions of God to more abstract ones. Judaism is really born in this period, although the history of the Israelites surely extends further back. And from Judaism comes Jesus who will repeatedly quote texts and reference ideas and events from this period to present his worldview.

Hence no Heaven.

Just to be clear, Jews do believe in heaven/a good afterlife for the righteous. When Jesus says the righteous will be rewarded and the wicked punished after death/in the world to come he is in accordance with Jewish thought.

Everyone else is shit to Jews — Vaskane

You should either talk with a rabbi or read the Hebrew Bible in its entirety. Read Book of Ruth, especially. Consider that there are many examples of righteous gentiles in the Hebrew Bible as well as Jewish tradition.

I am literally 100% excluded from ever belonging to their ethnoreligion I can never be a Jew. — Vaskane

Not technically, but if you reject God and objective values then you will certainly not be allowed in. You wouldn't be a Christian or a Muslim with those beliefs either.

If you changed your beliefs you'd be eligible to convert Judaism does accept converts, but being Jewish is not a requirement for a good afterlife so Jews don't go around trying to convert everyone.

Hence why Jews created Christianity, for the non Jews.

Christianity is a minority offshoot of Judaism. A breakaway movement. Slave morality may have been "birthed" with the Israelites, but imo it reaches its peak in Jesus. If I'm not mistaken, Nietzsche would emphasis the Jewishness of Jesus to anti-Semites - i.e. how he magnifies certain concepts that were originally present in Judaism/Jewish thought. Evangelical Christians like John MacArthur will sometimes make this point as well.

A proportionate response. — AmadeusD

So, like, kill 1200 Hamas?

Oh, and yet, in the account of the lives of Jesus Christ, the Gospels, there is no such thing as sin, guilt, punishment and reward, merely Jesus and the Glad Tidings. It's the disciples who introduce ever aspect of Judaism back into Christianity. — Vaskane

Jesus cannot sin if he is God. His disciples can sin because they are fully human and 0% God.

For us/his disciples/his audience there is definitely sin, guilt, punishment and reward. Jesus reminds us again and again that we can be thrown into hellfire, aka Gehinnom, an idea present in second temple era Judaism.

it states those who do not follow the ways of Jesus will remain under God's angry judgment, under the Judaic tradition — Vaskane

Happy to go to the text.

not the Judaic dogma of slavish hate and resentment towards objective values. — Vaskane

What are you talking about? Jews are monotheists and believers in objective values. One God. One set of rules; some binding towards all of humanity, others binding only for Israel.

Hate is in all of those objective commandments. Detailing how one must live. — Vaskane

Jesus believed in commandments... if one sought eternal life (Matthew 19:16–30; Mark 10:17–31; Luke 18:18–30). Commandments like "thou shall not murder" make up the foundation of any civilized people, but by all means reject them. Who needs a society where people heed strict rules like that?

Jesus born a Jew and within such a shitty way of life and tradition rejected the whole of the Jewish tradition and faith by representing God's undying love and faithfulness. — Vaskane

"You must be careful to do everything [the teachers of the law and the Pharisees] tell you. But do not do what they do, for they do not practice what they preach." (Matthew 23:30).

Yeah, totally seems like Jesus rejected the whole of Judaism. :roll:

In fact, the Jews apparently treated Jesus like dirt because he rejected Judaism. — Vaskane

Or because he essentially claimed to be God? He speaks with absolute certainty. Cult leader.

Blacks never popularized an objective us vs them morality. One that infected the globe because it says the weak alone are the good. — Vaskane

The weak alone are good? Then why do Jews lionize King David? Or the Maccabees at Hanukkah? The Hebrew Bible praises military victory. Jews are hard-nose realists; try actually talking with one. They are more aware than any of the problems with weakness. Closer to this idea is Jesus.

I'm getting tired. If you were the leader of Israel or America or any given country, and a horde of barbaric criminals crossed into your border to murder 1200 of your civilians and raped and mutilated along the way what is the proper response? Consider that the leader of the horde vows to repeat the massacre as much as possible.

Not Iraq, Afghanistan. Invading/striking afghanistan was the immediate response to 9/11, Iraq came 2 years later - and was completely uninvolved in 9/11. I do see parallels between 9/11 and 10/7 but the two are certainly not the same.