So the given is always a mental construction. — Haglund

A king of cheap skepticism, I suppose. Maybe life is a dream! Etc. Descartes dealt with this years ago— and Kant, in his own way, after him.

That we “exist” is a given. If it’s a mental construction, then the mental construction exists.

And what’s the argument, exactly? That nothing exists, that everything is a mental construction, or that any proposition or truth is impossible?

Seems utterly ridiculous to me.



For the third time you failed to answer my question. Instead opting to apparently talk to yourself.

There’s no contradiction whatsoever in what is said, beyond what you’ve made up. Yes, thinking and talking is something done by the human being — no one denies that. Thinking and talking are beings.

You’re mistaking being for an object. It’s not. It’s also not permanence, which you seemed to indicate early on. It’s also not change.

Denying anything exists is worth doing — in high school. You can go on doing so it your please. I have no interest in it.

I’m not sure either, frankly.

I fell behind this thread a while back and it’s too long for me to go through, but I’ve perused. And I see what you mean. I see a lot of people talking past each other. But I think we can all agree this is an awful situation — and exceedingly dangerous.

The fact that Russian propaganda is feeding this narrative and blowing it out of any sensible proportion is precisely the reason we are talking about it right now. Otherwise, what relevance is there to the idea that Bush once made a promise he couldn't keep? It's long been water under the bridge. — Olivier5

It’s not the reason I’m talking about it. I’ve known this for years— long before this crisis. I have no access to Russian propaganda— in fact quite the opposite, I’m surrounded, here in the US, by war hawks and jingoists.

It’s hardly “water under the bridge.” It’s far more likely that that statement is a result of propaganda. I hear similar noises in the US media— when it’s mentioned at all (which is rare). That’s telling. I can see why the government would want us to forget. It’s preferable for the public to remain ignorant of the motivations of “foreigners.” They’re just terrorists, barbarians, sub-humans, etc. No sense doing anything except destroy them.

This is exactly the problem of metaphysics: how can you say that something is a given, since, in order to say it, you need to use your brain? — Angelo Cannata

No— in order to say it, or think it, you have to be. Anything we think, say, feel, or do presupposes existence.

I’ll repeat: unless change is nothing, it “has” being.

So again:

1) there is.
2) There is something.
3) Change is something.

Where does the disagreement lie? — Xtrix

If you’re arguing that nothing exists— or knowledge of any kind, or statements of any kind are impossible, which is what it sounds like, then that’s your own business. I can’t argue with absurdities.

If change is a thing, it’s part of existence. This is logic— this is truism.

Saying “change is something” is a human conceptualization, which is, metaphisics. — Angelo Cannata

Not really. To recognize anything whatsoever is not metaphysics. We see the world in terms of entities in that world. Beings. That’s simply consciousness, awareness, perception, experience, etc.

We can call it a conceptualization…but in that case everything is conceptualized. Not just a particular being, like change, but any being whatsoever. The world then becomes “conceptualized.” And here we’re back to an idealism.

As such, it is exposed to criticism. It is humanly impossible to guarantee that our reasonings are true and correct: we never know if tomorrow we might discover an error in our reasoning. — Angelo Cannata

But I’m not referring to “reasoning.”

I don’t understand what you’re arguing against — that things exist at all? Or that change is not a thing?

If neither, then fine — because both are absurdities. But it seems as if there’s disagreement somehow…yet if you truly understand what I’m saying, it’s not at all controversial. It’s essentially truism:

1) there is.
2) There is something.
3) Change is something.

Where does the disagreement lie?

So, you have no way to guarantee that your statement “change is something” is true or correct — Angelo Cannata

That there is something is a given, prior to (and assumed before) truth or falsity in the sense you’re using (viz., propositional logic).

The notion of truth you’re using, yes any statement whatsoever can be analyzed as true in terms of “correctness,” and so can be doubted. We can doubt the existence of everything we think and experience— as Descartes famously did. This already presupposes an ontology, a notion of truth, a subject/object distinction, and a notion of correctness.

It’s a ploy often used when one wants to get out of an otherwise weak argument or misunderstanding. Better to attempt to undermine truth, fact, and reality rather than “lose.” It’s an unhealthy habit— I’ve done it myself. Worth losing.

That's why I think it is wrong considering change as being. — Angelo Cannata

You aren’t listening.

Change is something. Therefore change “is.” Is-ness is being.

Unless you’re claiming change is nothing— which is an absurdity— then there’s no disagreement.

“Being” is not permanence.

The NATO thing has been done to death... — SophistiCat

Rightfully so. I’m very glad to hear it. I don’t think it can be done to death, though.

It's far more than just a fashion: almost a mandatory opinion, hammered hour after hour, day after day, week after week. — Olivier5

Not that NATO is “evil,” but that agreements were made (alas, informal - not that that matters much either way) and quickly broken. Of course Russian propaganda will embellish the point for their own purposes. Doesn’t make it any less relevant.

Worth remembering that Ukraine was indeed led to believe that Russia would respect Ukrainian independence and sovereignty in the existing borders it had. — ssu

Was this before or after NATO expanded to Poland, Czech Republic, Hungary, Slovakia, Romania, Lithuania, Latvia, Estonia (both bordering Russia), etc.?

As I said before— I’m not excusing Putin’s crimes. But to analyze this situation by speculations about his psyche is useless. Whoever is in charge, Russia has good reason to be weary of NATO expansion, and has warned against it for years. It’s only a matter of time before someone does something stupid, given the context.

Point being, nothing you're quoting is remotely new, and so it isn't a very good explanation for the decision to invade. — Count Timothy von Icarus

It wasn’t an explanation of the decision to invade. But it’s one very important factor. You cannot understand this event without this historical context. The statement last September is a crucial piece.

that NATO expansion isn't a strategic threat because everything Western is totally benign — Benkei

Yes— American exceptionalism. Everything we do is for democracy and freedom. All military action is defensive (department of defense).

There’s little point in arguing with someone who’s already taken that view, I suppose. But it was worth pointing out anyway in the off chance it wasn’t mentioned. I haven’t followed every post on this thread.

In case this hasn't been posted yet, I'll link it below, with excerpts.

Supporting Ukraine’s Euro-Atlantic Aspirations: As the United States and Allies reaffirmed in the June 2021 NATO Summit Communique, the United States supports Ukraine’s right to decide its own future foreign policy course free from outside interference, including with respect to Ukraine’s aspirations to join NATO. We also remain committed to assisting Ukraine with ongoing reforms.

Joint Statement on the U.S.-Ukraine Strategic Partnership

Worth remembering that Russia was indeed led to believe that NATO wouldn't advance beyond 1990 borders.

Doesn't excuse Putin's war crimes. But if we're serious, we have to look at relevant antecedents. This was from last September.

:up:

If you consider “being” as "something”, but not permanent, how are you able to give it a name, which is, the word “being”? — Angelo Cannata

Being is not a being.

But beyond that -- if what you say is true, and we cannot assign a name to anything that changes -- then we can't name anything, including change itself.

It seems to me that we can use names only if we consider that something remains unchanged over time. For example, if what I call “sky” today is a “horse” tomorrow, it is completely impossible to me to give it a name, I cannot even figure what I am thinking about. — Angelo Cannata

There are many words, in many languages, that express the same concepts. In fact, we know very well that using codes, like binary code, can convey all kinds of information. So if tomorrow we call the sun "horse," it won't change that bright ball in the sky.

I repeat myself: being is not permanence, and it's not change. I never made either claim. It's not a being, and it's not a property. It's not what's left over when you take everything else away, for example. It's not like water or matter -- which can change forms, etc.

But you call it “being”, which means that, in this something that you call “being”, something remains the same over time, so that today and tomorrow you can still call it “being”. This seems to me that actually you are not conceiving “being” as something really completely changing, really not permanent. — Angelo Cannata

I never said being was "completely changing," I said we should not equate being with permanence. I also said, at least twice now, that being is also not therefore "becoming." Permanence and impermanence is not what "being" means. Take "being" to mean "existence," if that's more helpful. That gets closer to what I mean. We wouldn't say "existence" is an object or a property -- we wouldn't say existence is "change" or "permanence."

My recommendation: read Heidegger's "Introduction to Metaphysics."

If you consider change as a kind of being — Angelo Cannata

Ask yourself this: is change a "thing" of any kind? I'd say "Yes, of course -- it's at least a concept, a word, etc." So it is a being -- it is "something." It has existence. It "is."

This is, as far as I can tell, not very controversial.

What would be the alternative? Is change nothing?

I think this is not really consistent, because, if you really want to be consistent with a perspective based on change, you must consider change also about your idea of change. In other words, if I say “everything changes”, I must admit that this very statement and its meaning must be included in the set of things subject to change. — Angelo Cannata

I don't see how this is relevant. I'm not denying that things change, nor did I say anything about a "perspective of change." The only point was that change -- whatever it is -- is, at bottom, "something." It's not nothing. Whether a physical process or a word or a thought or concept or an abstraction, it's something. Thus, it's a being.

The sentence "everything changes" is itself subject to change -- so what?

If you think about change as a way of being, then you are assuming that, along the change, being remains being. But, if it remains being, then you are excluding it from change, you are excluding your statement from the field of things that change. — Angelo Cannata

I didn't say change was a "way of being," I said that it was a being. "Being remains being," or "being is excluded from change" is, again, equating "being" with permanence. That's exactly what I'm arguing against. Being is not permanence and it is not change. Being is not "a" being at all.

So I'm not excluding being from change, and I'm not equating being with change.

Heidegger was able to include change in the category of being because he actually modified the meaning of being: being in Heidegger is not absolute, but conditioned by time, by the human condition. — Angelo Cannata

I wouldn't put it that way. To say being is "conditioned by time" is meaningless to me. Rather, my understanding of Heidegger is this: human beings are temporal beings, and when they interpret being they do so with time as their standpoint. They interpret being in terms of time. Hence why the distinction between "being and becoming" is so ancient. Change itself assumes time. No time, no change.

This way Heidegger forced the meaning of “being” to something that actually means human condition, subject to time and death. In this context we cannot say that change is an expression of being, because being itself hasn’t any stable meaning. — Angelo Cannata

Again, I don't agree with your formulation. The meaning of being as "something that actually means the human condition" doesn't ring true to me, except in the sense that it can be interpreted as what I said above -- that humans interpret being (and beings) in terms of time, because (at least in Heidegger's analysis) we "are" time (or, in his vocabulary, "temporality").

Regardless, being doesn't have a stable meaning -- true. There are many meanings and interpretations. But the same is true for change. The point, though, that change is "something" -- which is all I'm claiming -- and is thus a thing, and thus a being, etc., seems fairly obvious.

Along history metaphysics was criticized by historicists, because, by trying to understand how things are, it looses sight of the fact that things, rather than being, are becoming (Heraclitus). — Angelo Cannata

I think we need to shake the traditional views of Parmenides and Heraclitus. This "being versus becoming" is a false one. Why should we presume that "being" means something opposed to "becoming"? This essentially equates being to permanence.

Beings exist. Beings change. Change -- becoming -- itself is a being. Not a "physical object," of course, but a process. Processes exist. Change exists. Thus, change is "in" being as much as permanence is "in" being.

It's a false dichotomy. Heraclitus and Parmenides are saying the same thing. Here I agree with Heidegger.

Emojis are about all that some people are worth.

Write in one paragraph a concise statement on why Kant's CPR is speculative metaphysics. — Constance

Won’t happen. Because he’s never read a word of Kant. Just like he’s never read a word of Kuhn. He’s just a liar who wants to posture. Who knows why. I assume he’s a teenager or young adult.

It’s glaringly obvious when someone is just bullshitting. No specifics, no citations — just vague generalizations about “metaphysics” and “objectivity.”

It’s psychologically interesting— so I guess there’s some value to it.

:rofl:

:lol: :up:

And Rand was a professed atheist! They bowed anyway. — Constance

Indeed. Both the plutocracy and the evangelical community often love her.



Look! He’s doing her greatest hits! How quaint.

And intellectually unevolved. What's particularly dangerous isn't Rand herself, but the cult-like following of her. She's only somewhat responsible for that, but not entirely. I think she herself would mostly be against the dogmatism and zealotry of her followers. Having once given her due attention, I've since moved beyond her -- although there are still aspects I like. I like that she echoes Aristotelian virtue ethics, for example. But her views on ontology, epistemology, and politics is very limited indeed.

Her devotees on this forum so far have done her legacy no favors.

Ayn Rand devotees are cute.

Agreed.

:rofl:

Trolls are amusing. Imagine not knowing what “cognate” means — or “derive”. Lol

translated in Greek — Nickolasgaspar

I didn’t say it was cognate.

That is a factually wrong statement. — Nickolasgaspar

There are no “facts” involved. So this statement is just stupid.

Look - you have no idea what you’re talking about. It’s obvious. You’re pretending otherwise fools no one but yourself. You’re a liar, and you communicate like a child who pretends to have all the answers. Much like Ayn Rand herself.

I doubt if one person on this forum takes you seriously. A normal person would look at this feedback and perhaps reflect…but self-deluded liars like you apparently can’t.

But keep going…trolls provide many laughs.

let me get this straight now.... the term Nature derives from the Greek physis(φυση)lol???? — Nickolasgaspar

Yes, it does. Natura is the Latin translation of phusis.

First we interact empirically with your environment — Nickolasgaspar

No. First we are.

You can NOT have science without philosophy and philosophy without science. — Nickolasgaspar

Yes, you can.

I’ll skip the rest. Lying children don’t deserve serious responses. Go read more Rand.

A little synopsis:

Thinking is an activity that human beings do.

Thinking defined by the universal nature of its questions— especially the question of being — is called philosophy.

Philosophy is universal phenomenological ontology.

Questioning relegated to the causal relations in nature is natural philosophy. Its ontological foundations are just that: natural. “Natura” derives from the Greek: phusis.

Before we take a look at nature — which is one aspect of being — we are doing philosophy. Science is derived from ontology.

:rofl:

:rofl:

:rofl:

If you are ignorant of the objective nature of the Scientific Method
— Nickolasgaspar

There isn't such a thing as "A scientific Method".
— Nickolasgaspar

Again— best not to engage seriously with children.

If you are ignorant of the objective nature of the Scientific Method
— Nickolasgaspar

There isn't such a thing as "A scientific Method".
— Nickolasgaspar — Xtrix

:rofl:

:up:

:rofl:

Or easy for an individual that can read.

If you are ignorant of the objective nature of the Scientific Method — Nickolasgaspar

There isn't such a thing as "A scientific Method". — Nickolasgaspar

:chin:

What we're "doing" when we do science is treating the world as natural or physical -- i.e., objective -- as substantive, quantitative, material. It takes on a view of the world as an object, a machine, or as forces acting on matter. — Xtrix

We look for natural explanations to natural phenomena. All of what I said above is an ontological position. None of it is "arbitrary," nor did I say that.
— Xtrix

science doesn't assume the world is material, mechanical etc. — Nickolasgaspar

-You are confusing Methodological Naturalism with Ontological Naturalism. — Nickolasgaspar

…

[Science] deals with ontology within nature since we figured out this is the only ontology that makes senses and has epistemic value. — Nickolasgaspar

It’s almost as if you’re making it up as you go. As if you’re more interested in posturing. :chin:

I eventually felt that he lead me nowhere. — Manuel

insight that I can try to do something with. — Manuel

I hear you. But what would you like to do with it?

I feel the question itself, the history, etc., is very focusing. It offers a new understanding of being human, really. That has plenty of application — to politics, to technology, and so on.

I used to like Heidegger, now less so, but he's interesting. — Manuel

Why less so now? I’m curious.

Fires and floods seem to be focusing folk's attention. One might be hopeful. — Banno

Yes...and if we had another 20/30 years of runway, this would be good. But much like the tobacco industry, the fossil fuel industry will fight to the bitter end to burn their products -- and that means the politicians they control and the misinformation they put out (now greenwashing) will continue to lose us time. By the time it becomes a non-partisan issue, there likely won't be time left.

We can put our hopes into carbon-removing technology, but that doesn't seem very promising.

To really halt excess CO2 production instead of just slowing it down would require some sort of global covenant: a new global religion, basically. — frank

There's truth to this. But I would make two points: (1), I view capitalism as the real religion, and a particular variant of it seems to be dominating the minds of the plutocracy -- whether or not this can change, I don't know. But I wouldn't say it's global. (2) This religious conversion is only necessary if people continue not to organize/act collectively.

On a positive note: climate change has been reported far more than in the past, the country seems to be moving a little in prioritizing it (according to polls), and there's a significant movement compared to even 10 years ago. Plus, younger people seem much more likely to care about this crisis, for good reason. Big business, including fossil fuel companies, have moved from outright denial to admitting we have to do something -- i.e., the delay-as-long-as-possible phase. But that's still movement. Renewable energy and clean technology has advantaged and become much cheaper, etc.

This would all make me very hopeful...if it were 1988. But since we've essentially wasted 34 years, most of the warming is locked in. We have only some idea of how destructive 1.5 to 2.5 degrees warming will be -- but given the level of destruction we've already seen (and are seeing) at just 1.2 C, it's likely to be hellish.

People have had 50 years to awaken. It's not going to happen, mate. — Benkei

Maybe not. But the way I see it, if that's true -- it's hopeless anyway. But since that's not set in stone, I will keep trying.

By the way, I see it being closer to 40 years, from around the beginning of the Reagan administration. That's still a long time. But many in the 1930s probably felt the same way -- that no one will organize. We face our own set of obstacles now, but it wasn't that long ago that things were better. I think we began to see the end of the neoliberal era in 2008. There are signs of it everywhere. We see it in the shift to "stakeholder capitalism" to the election of several progressives to the widespread labor strikes.

I think it's all becoming a "supersaturated solution." I think the 'awakening' is right in front of our noses. I think Bernie tapped into it.

It will not pass. If Manchin decides to pass something, which has been reported he's interested in doing so piece-meal, it will be devoid of anything meaningful. That's assuming anything passes whatsoever.

Of course, it isn't just Manchin. He's taking the fall on this, and happy to do so, but most of the Democratic party isn't interested in passing anything meaningful for the working/middle class, for the environment, or for really anything that threatens their plutocratic masters' position and power. They made their choice long ago; it was particularly evident in how the DNC effectively, unlike the RNC, beat back the more popular candidate, Bernie Sanders. The rest has mostly been empty lip service and placation to corral his supporters -- and the last year has taken away any doubt whatsoever of this (their vote was against Trump anyway, not for Biden -- which is a crucial distinction).

So the legislation is indeed dead, and the fossil fuel kingpin is largely (but not entirely) to blame. It was already largely watered down, which is what initially made me think that it had a chance of passing (given that the biggest provision was already removed and the price tag came way down). Alas, my own foolishness.

We're wasting with time we don't have, either way. Democrats only nibble around the edges.

I'm thinking now that there are two options before us: (1) the people can give what's called the "extreme" sides of the political spectrum full control over the government -- abolish the filibuster or give supermajorities, etc -- so that we see what truly comes out of either vision (including, unfortunately, the Republican party). This is probably spells doom, and wastes 2-6 years. But at least the citizens will get a real sense of what it looks like, as they do in state governments dominated by one party or the other.

Or (2) is that we wait for a much-needed cultural and economic upheaval. 9/11 obviously didn't cut it. 2008 financial crisis and recession came close, but mostly that just got us Trump. The coronavirus obviously didn't bring anyone together, although it has shifted people around in their jobs, perhaps increased remote work, and apparently has energized, to a degree, the labor movement (Starbucks, Amazon, all the strikes taking place). But none of it is enough. We need a real crash and a real depression. Things need to get far worse, evidently -- because the 80% of the American populace is still convinced that there are "two sides."

What I'm waiting for is the massive crash of the stock market -- which I have little doubt will happen. Watch what the Fed does.

Unfortunately, if this does happen it will most likely bring the Republicans in power -- and possibly Trump again. But perhaps that's what's necessary to awaken the large movement (bordering on revolution if not outright revolution) that's needed, at this point.

Beyond that, I see no way we avoided future catastrophe.

(BTW, I don't want to minimize the huge success of the people organizing in unions and going on strikes, etc. -- the concession of Shultz to freeze $20 billion in stock buybacks is a MAJOR victory for labor, and shouldn't be dismissed.)

I wouldn’t bother too much with Ayn Rand dogmatists/liars who are interested only in posturing.

Let them be happy with “philosophy becomes science when it is objectively verified” or whatever Nickelodeon characterization they’re attached to.

You’d have a better chance talking to a sea blob.