Comments

  • Free Speech - Absolutist VS Restrictive? (Poll included)
    Say we both buy the same computer brand and model. Once we get home we install software on the computer. The software I install is going to be different than what you install. The data I store on mine will be different than what is on yours. As a result both computers, even though they are the same make and model and we interact with the computer the same way - via keyboard and mouse, both computers are going to function differently because of the software and data - the information stored within it.
  • Free Speech - Absolutist VS Restrictive? (Poll included)
    Your response is an example of talking past each other.

    You're the one using terms like "physical". Not me. Is information physical?
  • Free Speech - Absolutist VS Restrictive? (Poll included)
    I constantly have to repeat myself with you:
    Maybe it has something to do with the information stored in their brains.Harry Hindu
  • What is real? How do we know what is real?
    Suppose there was no written language. And let's say the idea occurred to me. Why can't we represent the things we talk about visually, instead of audibly? No alphabets exist. How would I go about it? It's possible I would make symbols that represent the things I want to communicate to the reader (not that the word "reader" would exist yet). Simple drawings when possible. Likely also many symbols whose resemblance to what they are supposed to represent is not always terribly obvious.Patterner
    Why would you feel the need to represent things that you already observe and if some reader/listener doesn't exist yet? The whole point of representing things in the world is to communicate with others. If there are no others, then why would you feel the need to represent things - for who, or for what purpose?
  • Knowledge is just true information. Isn't it? (Time to let go of the old problematic definition)
    I know that in a few billion years the Sun will expand and consume the Earth.

    Not really sure how to make use of this information, but I know it all the same.
    Michael
    Information is everywhere causes leave effects. Which information is relevant is dependent upon the present goal in the mind. If you had the goal to ensure the human race continues to exist beyond the Earth being consumed by the Sun you might start building and testing rockets to make humanity a multi-planetary, or multi-solar system species.
  • Free Speech - Absolutist VS Restrictive? (Poll included)
    Slightly different biologies. Your eyes are not identical to my eyes and your brain is not identical to my brain.Michael
    Yet people with different eyes and different brains respond similarly and sometimes not, so you haven't yet accounted for the difference in why some people are influenced by some speech and not others. Maybe it has something to do with the information stored in their brains.
  • Disambiguating the concept of gender
    Gender refers to the socially constructed roles, behaviors, expressions, and identities of girls, women, boys, men, and gender-diverse people. It's a distinct concept from biological sex, which refers to physical attributes like chromosomes, hormones, and reproductive organs. Gender is a social construct, meaning it's created and shaped by society and culture, with norms and expectations varying across time and different societies.prothero
    Which means that an individual's gender is determined by society, not by the individual like sex is.

    Do you deny that there are social differences between men and women, independent of their karyotype and genitals? Are we are gender-blind outside of reproduction and reproductive health?Michael
    Yes because in speaking of social differences, we are speaking about differences in societies. When speaking about differences between a man and a woman, we are speaking about biological differences. To conflate the two would be practicing sexism.



    Androids aren't people, they're machines.Michael
    If an artificial human isn't a human then artificial penises aren't penises.

    What if a woman has a dildo (an artificial penis) in her purse - does she get to use the men's restroom?


    Some dude who just woke up one day wanting different body parts for no logical reason, that's just not something that needs to be taken seriously.
    — Outlander

    It's also not something that actually happens.
    Michael

    Yet you say that there is no specific example of expressing one's gender:
    It doesn't show anything specific, which is what I'm asking for.
    — Harry Hindu

    Because there is no specific thing.
    Michael
    You are the one that has created the circumstances of gender being this open-ended thing that can mean anything - as long as it's not sex, so it isn't a straw-man until you provide some concrete examples.


    Martin and Ruble conceptualize this process of development as three stages: (1) as toddlers and pre-schoolers, children learn about defined characteristics, which are socialized aspects of gender; (2) around the ages of five to seven years, identity is consolidated and becomes rigid; (3) after this "peak of rigidity", fluidity returns and socially defined gender roles relax somewhat. Barbara Newmann breaks it down into four parts: (1) understanding the concept of gender, (2) learning gender role standards and stereotypes, (3) identifying with parents, and (4) forming gender preference.
    How is 1) achieved if
    In the very early years of human development – and in particular at a time when we're unlikely to even be aware of sex organs different from our ownMichael
    ?
    If gender as social expectations of the sexes is determined by sex and we aren't aware of other sex organs, then how can we learn the characteristics of gender at an early age? How does a toddler learn why some people where dresses and some wear pants if they aren't aware of other sex organs?

    You can't even stay consistent with your own arguments (oh wait, I forget, they are the scientists' arguments and scientists are prophets from on high and should never be questioned -which is how you distance yourself from your own contradictions).

    So what does the transgender man falsely believe himself to be?Michael
    That they are a man. Why else would they be calling themselves a man? And yes, many trans-gender people do not like the trans- qualifier. They actually consider themselves a man or a woman.
  • Free Speech - Absolutist VS Restrictive? (Poll included)
    Free speech absolutism clings to a libertarian ahistorical fantasy:Benkei
    Said by someone with a complete lack of understanding of what it means to be a libertarian.

    A libertarian is not "every person for themselves" or "everyone can do whatever they want". That is anarchy, not libertarianism.

    A libertarian understands that the right to do what they want stops when what they are doing infringes on the rights of others.

    My free speech stops when it infringes on your rights, so threatening bodily harm is not speech a libertarian would support.

    Free speech is not "Anyone can say whatever they want without repercussions", because other people have the same right to say what they want, which means they can disagree and criticize what others say - especially what people in positions of authority say.

    So instances where people were manipulated by someone else's speech is where the people manipulated did not have the capacity to question or criticize what was said, or they were not manipulated at all and already had hate within them that they were waiting to use any excuse to unleash.

    Light, sound, smells, etc. The very fact that we sense and respond to the external world is only possible because the external world causally influences us.Michael
    Yes, but why does each person respond to those same lights, sounds, smells, etc differently?

    Yes. Determinism is the inevitable consequence of eliminative materialism.Michael
    Exactly - which means that because people respond to the same lights, sounds, smells, etc. differently there must be some other process between some speech being made and one's actions that manifests as that difference in actions after hearing a speech.
  • Disambiguating the concept of gender
    I just want to know if you accept that a transgender man with an artifical penis should use the men's bathroom.

    It's a simple "yes" or "no" answer.
    Michael

    Define "artificial". Which bathroom should an android with an artificial penis use?

    I've linked to various articles that explain gender, gender roles, gender expression, and gender identity. Do the reading.Michael
    It doesn't show anything specific, which is what I'm asking for. You were more than happy to provide specific examples of sex. Why so reluctant to show just one example of gender as something non-biological? Sounds like someone with a sex fetish that has no idea what they're talking about when it comes to gender and are just using it as cover for their real intention of being closer to women with their pants down.
  • Disambiguating the concept of gender
    I’m not conflating gender with biology. I am simply pointing out that if we separate bathrooms according on one’s sex organs, as you say we should, then it makes sense to allow those with an artificial penis to use the same bathroom as those with a natural penis and to allow those with an artificial vagina to use the same bathroom as those with a natural vagina.

    Included in those with artificial genitals are trans people who have had surgery, intersex people who have had surgery, and cisgender people who have had surgery after an unfortunate accident with a buzz saw.
    Michael
    What if there was an android with an artificial penis, which bathroom should they use? Please don't bring up the slippery slope. YOU are the one that used the term, "artificial", so you should define exactly how you're using it. I'm the one saying it's not any kind of penis, artificial or natural.
  • Disambiguating the concept of gender
    No, I'm not. I am simply acknowledging the fact that some transgender people have genital surgery.Michael
    And some people that are not transgender have had genital surgery, as you have pointed out and apparently forgotten. So what does gender status have to do with using the bathroom if gender has nothing to do with biology? Why is it so important that trans people get to use the bathroom rather than the non-trans that have had surgery? It must be because you continue to conflate sex with gender in one moment then claim they are separate in another.

    Also, you have been very happy to show specific examples of sex with your use of "penis", "vagina", "testes" etc., but have yet to show ONE specific example of gender as something social, psychological, cultural, and behavioral.

    According to this, 25-50% of transgender men have genital surgery and 4-13% of transgender women have genital surgery.Michael
    Thanks for supporting my argument that the number of trans-people that conflate sex and gender are growing and you're just parroting this conflation (delusion).

    No they're not. The transgender woman is fully aware that she is biologically male and the transgender man is fully aware that he is biologically female.Michael
    Aren't they saying they are psychologically and culturally male/female? Isn't that the point of contention here? I'm still waiting on specific examples.

    Can someone be non-biologically female male? If not, then why the qualifier, "biological"? If so, then please provide a specific example.

    There's no list of necessary and sufficient conditions.Michael
    Which is to say gender is anything other than sex. Gender = not-sex. That's helpful. :roll:


    .
  • Disambiguating the concept of gender
    And what about trans people who have had genital surgery?Michael
    Your conflating sex and gender again. If I said that intersex people can use whichever bathroom they want, then why would their gender status matter - if sex and gender are separate?

    In most cases one's gender is determined by one's sex, but given the existence of transgender people – and societies with more than two genders – this is not a necessity.Michael
    By having genital surgery the trans-person is asserting their gender is determined by their sex.

    Now, what about trans people that haven't had surgery? Which bathroom should they use? And what are they saying determines their gender - which social, psychological, cultural, and behavioral aspects are they referring to - specifically?
  • Disambiguating the concept of gender
    Because that’s what we were both discussing. You said "we separate bathrooms by sex because it is an area where we uncover our sex parts."

    I just want to understand how artificial sex parts factor into your separation.
    Michael
    I already said that intersex people can use whatever bathroom they want. People that have had genital surgery are effectively intersex because they still retain some of the sex parts they were born with.

    So, just to be clear, in talking about people that have had genital surgery, we're talking about intersex people, not trans-gendered people.
  • Disambiguating the concept of gender
    It’s a very simple question, Harry. If you are in charge of deciding who is allowed to use which bathroom, then would you require that trans men who have had genital surgery and now have an artificial penis use the men’s bathroom or the women’s bathroom?Michael
    You see, you are the one going on about bathrooms when I'm talking about the relationship between gender and sex. You're putting the cart before the horse.
  • Disambiguating the concept of gender
    I’m not.

    You claimed that the reason we have separate bathrooms for men and women is because men and women have different sex organs. And it is a simple fact that some trans people have genital surgery. So I’m asking you which bathroom they should use after having genital surgery.
    Michael
    You are.

    You are contradicting yourself. If gender and sex are separate then why would genital surgery be called gender-affirming?
  • Disambiguating the concept of gender
    I’m simply pointing out that if we divide bathrooms by sex organs then it makes sense to allow trans men who have had surgery to use the men’s bathroom and trans women who have had surgery to use the women’s bathroom.Michael
    If you're not conflating gender and sex then why are you calling people who modified their sexual biology trans-gender?

    In proposing unisex bathrooms you are taking away the trans-gender person's reasons for having surgery in the first place - to affirm their gender.
  • Disambiguating the concept of gender
    Men being physically stronger than women isn't a cultural thing. Neither is having more testosterone, which we know affects behavior. Has there ever been a culture where men have not committed more crimes than women?RogueAI
    Sure. I did mention that hormones are one of the determining characteristics of sexual differences, so you haven't contradicted anything I've said.

    Let me just reiterate here that we're talking about sexual differences, not gender differences if sex and gender are not the same thing.
  • Disambiguating the concept of gender
    I am simply pointing out that if we separate bathrooms according on one’s sex organs, as you say we should, then it makes sense to allow those with an artificial penis to use the same bathroom as those with a natural penis and to allow those with an artificial vagina to use the same bathroom as those with a natural vagina.

    Included in those with artificial genitals are trans people who have had surgery, intersex people who have had surgery, and cisgender people who have had surgery after an unfortunate accident with a buzz saw.
    Michael
    ...but it would not include most trans-people as most trans have not had surgery. So you would still force a man wearing a dress into the men's bathroom.

    And your proposal to have unisex bathrooms eliminates the trans-persons ability to affirm their gender by using a binary bathroom. Trans-genderism reinforces the binary gender social model and condones sexism.

    So either you haven't thought about the consequences of your proposed solution, or you have an ulterior motive to actually eradicate transgenderism, not support it. Which means that you are acting like you care for the transgender movement but are actually opposed to it and are using it as a means to get men closer to women when their pants are down.

    If you don’t trust what the experts have determined then I don’t see how I can help. As I alluded to before, I can no more prove that there are sex differences in psychology than I can prove that humans evolved via natural selection from single-celled organisms. All I can do is point you in the direction of the research. What you do with that is out of my control.Michael
    If you are dedicated to pleading to an authority that leaves out the necessary data that would actually show what they are claiming then I don't see how I can help.
  • What is real? How do we know what is real?
    You're moving the goal posts and also failing to understand how translation works. Sure letters can represent a sound, but I was talking about words and sentences. One could say the reverse could be true as well.

    What is the relationship between some scribble, "sand" and the sounds you make when saying the word, if not what they refer to, which is neither a sound or a scribble. "Sand" is a scribble and a sound. Sand is not.

    How do you translate the scribble in one language to another if not by learning what that scribble refers to so that you can know which scribble in another language it translates to?

    Think about being in the same vicinity as me and being able to see, hear, smell, and touch everything in the same vicinity as me. If I were to describe the area we are in, wouldn't it be redundant because you are already here with me experiencing the same things? Why would it be redundant if scribbles and sounds don't refer to the things in the vicinity that you can experience for yourself? If you can see I have a pet black and white cat, why would I say, "I have a pet black and white cat"? Language is used to relay information to others when their senses cannot access what it is we want them to know.
  • What is real? How do we know what is real?
    We've been over this previously, and it's a bit of a side issue, but I don't agree with your theory that words are all proper names, that all they do is refer.Banno
    The fact that you can co-opt something for a different purpose is trivial and does not mean that the original and primary use no longer exists or is useful. When communicating you are using scribbles and sounds to refer to things that are not scribbles and sounds.

    I don't find this very useful, since "causal power" is not as clear a concept as "real". Indeed, I doubt that the idea of causation can be made all that clear. But there is a clear use of "real", which I've explained previously - it is used in opposition to some other term, that carries the explanatory weight - it's real, and not a counterfeit, not an illusion, and so on.

    It doesn't help us if we explain one unclear idea by using another idea that is even less clear.
    Banno
    But is it a real counterfeit bill or a real dollar bill? Is it a real illusion or a real observation? The fact is that a counterfeit bill and illusions can make you behave as if they are "real" until you have more information as to the causes that preceded their existence. If you don't understand causation then I don't see how you can claim a difference between a counterfeit bill or a dollar bill as different processes went into creating them (causation).

    Going by what you have said, counterfeit bills appear randomly without counterfeiters creating them and there would be no crime in creating counterfeit bills.
  • Knowledge is just true information. Isn't it? (Time to let go of the old problematic definition)
    The conclusion was that for information to be used, it has to be stored somewhere first.
  • Knowledge is just true information. Isn't it? (Time to let go of the old problematic definition)
    I agree with the first sentence. With the rest of it, you lost me a bit.T Clark
    If you understand the relationship between rationalism vs empiricism then all I am saying is that knowledge is supported by integrating both rather than treating them as a dichotomy. Beliefs are supported by only one or the other or neither.
  • Disambiguating the concept of gender
    I'm sympathetic to this, but when we label someone as "man", along with a physical description of a male (genitalia, chromosomes, etc.) that label also denotes that, on average, men are stronger than women and more violent and predatory. Would you agree?RogueAI
    There is some research that suggests that on average, in European populations women are twice as likely to be blonde than men, but we don't say that blonde hair and not-blonde hair are sex differences.

    Biological sex is based on a combination of five traits (chromosomes, genitals, gonads, hormones and secondary sex characteristics). Using genitals and gonads alone, more than 99.9% of people fall into two non-overlapping classes—male and female—and the other traits almost always occur with these.

    Women can be violent and predatory. So the question is, what is the threshold by which we define which characteristics are sexual differences, and which aren't? The fact that we even have a 99% ratio of different characteristics occurring naturally together must speak to what it means to be a woman or a man independent of our use of language. Everything else would be decided by one's culture.
  • What is real? How do we know what is real?
    The key word here is "communication" and not "gaming". We use scribbles to communicate, not to play games - although we could play games with words and but that isn't the primary use of language.

    The scribbles do not refer to the sounds of a spoken language. It is the sounds and the scribbles that refer to the same thing that is not another sound or scribble, just as the different sounds and scribbles of different languages refer to the same thing and is what makes it possible to translate languages in the first place. Because we often learn the sound before the scribble, we are actually translating the sound to the scribble when writing, but the sound refers to something else that is neither a sound or a scribble.

    "Leia is my seven year old pet cat." is a string of scribbles that refers to something that is not another string of scribbles, but a living entity that both the sounds and scribbles refer to. Choosing to say it vs write it is dependent upon your intended audience, as you have explained, which is no different than choosing which language to say it in, which is dependent upon your audience.

    The scribbles and sounds we use to refer to things that are not sounds and scribbles are arbitrary so we need rules for which string of scribbles/sounds refers to which things and events in the world. That is what we are agreeing on - the rules of reference.
  • What is real? How do we know what is real?
    Manage what - talking past each other? Sure.
  • Disambiguating the concept of gender
    Which is why I said it makes sense to let trans women who have had bottom surgery use the women’s bathroom and trans men who have had bottom surgery use the men’s bathroom.Michael
    Here we go again with conflating gender with biology, which leaves out those that have not had surgery.

    It’s both, which is why the article on gender that I directed you to says “gender is the range of social, psychological, cultural, and behavioral aspects of being a man (or boy), woman (or girl), or third gender.”Michael
    But you just spoke about gender as biology (by having surgery) and now it is back to gender as non-biological. You are being inconsistent in your use of the term, "gender".

    I have also asked for examples of gender as something psychological. I have already shown an example of gender as something cultural (sexist tropes). So I'm still waiting on you to provide an example of what you mean. Just tell me what you mean when you assert you are a man or woman? Why can't you do that simple thing?

    It’s not my argument. It’s what the experts in psychology and psychiatry have determined. If you think that they're wrong then the burden is on you to explain where they’ve gone wrong.Michael
    I'm not even saying they're wrong. I'm asking a question about how they can they reach the conclusions they have when the evidence they provide doesn't include necessary information to reach that conclusion and is contradictory. I asked how it logically follows that these distinctions qualify as sexual differences if they occur across both sexes. This is required information and the fact that it is not included is suspicious. The fact that I cannot find the information is also suspicious - kind of like how that study that showed the negative effects of transitioning children was swept under the rug. I have shown evidence that scientists are not always truthful and can be manipulated by politics as much as anyone else, yet you keep pleading to authority when I have shown that the authority you are pleading to has not provided all the necessary information and has been caught keeping necessary information out of the public view.

    And when we live in an age of disinformation propagated by the authorities on both sides of the political spectrum, why would you not at least question authority than hides necessary information to claim what they are claiming?
  • What is real? How do we know what is real?
    I'm thinking mutual agreement.Patterner

    Mutual agreement about how to use scribbles, or what the scribbles refer to? If the former, then what exactly are we agreeing on using the scribbles for - to accomplish what? If the latter then we use scribbles to refer to things.
  • What is real? How do we know what is real?
    Then there's Kripke's suggestion, that if we must think of essences we can think of them as the properties had by something in every possible world in which that thing exists. This has the benefit of being formalisable and reasonably clear while keeping to a minimum any metaphysical consequences.

    Then you may be suggesting that we can be rid of essences by doing some sort of Bayesian analysis that allows us to conclude that tigers are real. Maybe.

    But you and I might agree that essences have little to do with what is and isn't real.
    Banno
    For me, things are real if they possess causal power. Rocks and ideas are real because they possess causal power. You can use your ideas to change things in the world and rocks can make you feel pain when you drop one on your foot. Essences would be akin to how different things interact with each other. For instance light is either reflected or passes right through objects depending on what the atomic structure of those objects, and which wavelengths of light are reflected or absorbed is dependent upon the same atomic structure.

    When we go to the Moon and Mars we find rocks and mountains. So rocks and mountains seem to be supported by what Kripke is proposing. We also have something called convergent evolution where similar traits arise in similar environments. On Earth, having eyes is very useful as the atmosphere allows visible light to pass right through it. On similar Earth-like planets with a transparent atmosphere we would expect organisms to have eyes.
  • What is real? How do we know what is real?
    Yep. Notice that reference remains intact despite the failure of each description. Hence reference is not achieved by using descriptions, nor by essences.Banno
    There is no reference if the scribbles refer to something that is not the case. One can only confirm there is a reference by making some observation about what the scribbles refer to. If there is no reference then they are just scribbles and not words. It's just that we often trust people are not lying when having a conversation with them so we don't feel a need to confirm everything that is said.

    Scribbles are just scribbles unless they refer to something. What makes a scribble a word and not just a scribble?

    You can draw any scribbles on this page but what makes some scribble meaningful? You might say it depends on how it is used. And I will ask, "used for what? - to accomplish what?" To use anything means you have a goal in mind. What is your goal in using some scribbles?
  • What is real? How do we know what is real?
    Although "99.9%" probably undersells things. Do ants, or trees, or ducks, or men every give birth to tigers? Has anything but a tiger ever given birth to a tiger?

    Even in hybrids, the hybrid's traits are an admixture. Horses and donkeys give birth to mules, not cats and frogs, etc.

    Note that this also defines what humans find "useful." If one tries to breed one's male pigs to one's female sheep, the family will starve.
    Count Timothy von Icarus
    Sure, usefulness is dependent on what is real or true. For something to be useful means that there is some sense of truth attached to it.

    I used 99.9% to represent the fact that species evolve and species cannot evolve unless the present species mutates in some way.

    I think that when we speak of "essences" and "substances" we are referring to those distinct clusters of shared characteristics that occur together 99.9% of the time. Species that share some characteristics of others, or where characteristics overlap are typically the descendants of the other species, or share a common ancestor with another species.
  • Knowledge is just true information. Isn't it? (Time to let go of the old problematic definition)
    The point made is that in order to be said to know something, it's not usually enough to have the information; one also should be able to act on that information.Banno
    The information one possesses could be memories where one used the information before and was successful in accomplishing some goal with that information, and would probably solve the present problem as well being that both circumstances are similar.

    If one cannot know how to ride a bike, then how does one learn to ride a bike? Don't forget that possessing information doesn't necessarily mean ones is conscious of the information as learned information is typically stored unconsciously until needed. Once one learns to ride a bike all the movements required are handled subconsciously. But this cannot be said while learning to ride a bike as one is fully conscious of every movement and one's balance as one observes one's actions and the effect of those actions, and repeat. This is what the learning process is. Once the task is learned most of the actions are governed subconsciously allowing the mind to tend to other things.
  • Knowledge is just true information. Isn't it? (Time to let go of the old problematic definition)
    Can you explain in virtue of what a belief would be "justified" without any reference to truth? How does logic "justify" a belief without reference to logic's relationship to truth in particular?

    It seems to me that this will be difficult.
    Count Timothy von Icarus
    It seems to me that any proof that logic provides must be confirmed by some observation. 2 + 2 = 4 are just scribbles on a page. What do the scribbles refer to in the world to make 2 + 2 = 4 useful and true? 2 + 2 = 4 is true, but why is it true? It's because we observe and categorize similar objects into groups so that there can be more than one of some thing. If everything were unique and there were no categories then there would only ever be one of anything and 2 + 2 = 4 would be meaningless. The idea of quantities is dependent upon the idea that things share a particular "essence" or "substance" to be grouped into similar categories to then say that there is a quantity of that particular "essence" or "substance", like cows, rocks and stars.
  • Disambiguating the concept of gender
    It’s interesting to consider how and why the social and cultural differences between men and women have developed over time. I suspect things were very different in the Paleolithic.Michael
    Which is to say that gender changes over time and cultures. So if a person travels to a different culture or to a different time, does their gender change? The "spectrum" of gender as a social construct exists as the relation between cultures and times, not particular feelings in an individual (and therefore not psychological), so changing genders would require you to move to a different culture or time, not changing your feelings. So which is it, is gender a social construct - a spectrum of societal expectations of the sexes, or is it a spectrum of various feelings an individual has?

    If gender is psychological then provide some examples that are clearly psychological (which would just mean that they are biological) instead of being clearly social/cultural - like wearing a dress and high heels is.
  • What is real? How do we know what is real?
    The problem is the term, "essence". What is an essence? Is it akin to a substance? What is a substance? The issue appears to be a misuse of language, or using words which have no coherent definition which makes them meaningless.

    There are simply characteristics that occur together a vast majority of the time. The characteristics of tigers occur together 99.9% of the time. Female and male tigers make tiger babies, not a mixed lot of various baby species.

    Just Google, "characteristics of tigers" and you will see the AI response of all the physical and behavioral characteristics of tigers. How can so many characteristics occur together 99% of the time if there isn't something real going on that is not dependent upon some agreement?
  • Disambiguating the concept of gender
    We also don't live in a world with unisex bathrooms. Abolishing clothes, or making all clothes unisex instead of having distinctly Women's clothes and Men's clothes, would abolish transgenderism. Your goal for a unisex society would effectively be a society in which transgenderism would not exist.Harry Hindu
    I didn't see any pushback on this. So are we to assume that your ulterior motive here is the eradicate transgenderism by applying unisex policies across the board and to have men physically closer to women when they have their pants down?

    We separate bathrooms by sex because it is an area where we uncover our sex parts. It is obvious why we categorize urinating with sex because they use the same parts. Gender, as separate from sex and biology, does not share those same intimate relations, so would play no role in determining which bathroom you use. Your urinary parts is what separates bathrooms, not how you dress. It just seems creepy to advocate for men to be physically closer to women when their pants are down.
  • Disambiguating the concept of gender
    It's true that I am not as much 'in the thick of it' as you, I also now realize that my comment doesn't exactly fit the situation.
    However, what I wanted to point out was that fitting strictly to textbook definitions and using them as a tool by following them to a T seems wrong to me. However what I previously responded to was not such a situation in this case, but it did seem like that person was trying to put their own definition to the word.
    Red Sky
    It's not that. Michael can't seem to decide which definition of gender he is using - the biological one or the non-biological one. He is essentially making category mistakes.
  • Disambiguating the concept of gender
    Presumably because of their prevalence. If some trait is typical of 98% of biological men but only 2% of biological women then it’s an example of a sex difference, but you’re better off asking a psychologist, not me.

    I’ve linked to the article, it has a list of references, so do the research if you’re unwilling to trust it at face value.
    Michael
    It's your argument. You're the one that needs to support it, not me. You're the one that simply accepts what your told without question.

    There is some research that suggests in European populations women are twice as likely to be blonde than men, but we don't say that blonde hair and not-blonde hair are sex differences.
  • Disambiguating the concept of gender
    limiting the conversation through definitions just seems wrong to meRed Sky
    It seems to me that the conversation is limited when you don't have clear definitions of what it is we are talking about. Without clear definitions we end up talking past each other. Effectively, no communication occurs.
  • Disambiguating the concept of gender
    There are sex differences in psychology.Michael
    And I am asking you how it logically follows that these distinctions qualify as sexual differences if they occur across both sexes.

    As I have pointed out before, biological sex is based on a combination of five traits (chromosomes,
    genitals, gonads, hormones and secondary sex characteristics). Using genitals and gonads alone, more than 99.9% of people fall into two non-overlapping classes—male and female—and the other traits almost always occur with these. If you did a principal components analysis using the combination of all five traits, you’d find two widely separated clusters with very few people in between.

    Do these psychological differences occur with the rest of these sexual characteristics with the same ratio (99.9%)? If so, wouldn't that mean that they are actually a biological woman or man? If not, then how can you say that these differences are based on sex? Are hair color, eye color, and skin color now based on sex too? These differences occur randomly among the sexes so are not considered characteristics of one's sex.
  • Disambiguating the concept of gender
    But, sure, in some idealised society that has no gender roles and where there is never any kind of separation or difference between biological males and biological females (outside of reproduction and reproductive health), and assuming for the sake of argument that sex differences in psychology are explained entirely by nurture and not by nature, then perhaps transgenderism wouldn't occur (although gender dysphoria might) – but we don't live in such a world.Michael
    We also don't live in a world with unisex bathrooms. Abolishing clothes, or making all clothes unisex instead of having distinctly Women's clothes and Men's clothes, would abolish transgenderism. Your goal for a unisex society would effectively be a society in which transgenderism would not exist.