It seems to me that a sense of duty is powerful given the nature of duty, but at the same time a sense of duty is becoming harder and harder to find. Duty is powerful in a practical sense because it concerns precisely what ought to be done, but I find that a lot of people no longer experience a sense of duty, and this is especially true as familial ties continue to weaken. — Leontiskos

Yes, I agree that people don't feel nearly as much of a sense of duty as could be expected or desired, but I don't think that it is all that difficult to instill something resembling it in people. In the OP I said people crave it, and I definitely still believe that - even if they do not know it.

I think contemporary philosophy is generally averse to duty and normative morality, and I wonder if this explains some of the motivation behind your "open letter." — Leontiskos

It occurred to me that I rarely, if ever on this forum, hear about the kind of duty I define in the OP or see people prescribe strong, traditional moral obligations towards leadership in a plain way. It is usually just so-and-so is evil, too extreme, too centrist, too censorious - and no one provides practical solutions, even if those solutions are just favorable tradeoffs. The principled leaders I have in mind are not perfect, but they are our best chance.

I don't really pay attention to what contemporary philosophers have to say unless I have to engage with what they have written directly. So, even though I would like to say my open letter was also intended to excoriate those philosophers who challenge the necessity of normative morality and duty and encourage the discussion of such concepts in good faith among them, it wasn't.

I did know, however, that the OP would be equivalent to throwing the gauntlet down against people like Banno, who seem to be staunchly opposed to any sort of strong, traditional moral convictions, specifically those convictions rooted in something other than the typical self-righteous, leftist dogma people dunk on all the time.

Heh. I suppose I'd say that it's only us chickens that have to step up, and that's the real problem. We're the leaders we have been waiting for -- we're just not as good as we want our leaders to be, so we feel inadequate to the task. — Moliere

No one would follow me, I'm afraid. But people will always step up when they think they need to. I just hope it is enough.

Yeah, I wouldn't mind hearing from some more soldiers either. There seems to be a paucity of them, oddly enough.

These all sound good to me. I'd even be able to point to some examples of people that fit. — Moliere

Me too.

I suppose I'd just point out that we have quite a few leaders. But I don't recognize your list in many of them. And so this is the cause of doubt: it seems that we already have leaders who believe themselves to be all of these good qualities, but we're lamenting that they don't possess them. — Moliere

We have lots of people attempting to lead and influence, it's just not the right people? Is all that's stopping them is that they don't realize what their duty is? — Moliere

When one is actually given a measure of power and is exposed to the kind of game politics is, I think it is easy to become afraid of misusing that power and to play it safe. Furthermore, it is less a problem of vision than many people think, as many people have favorable ideas of what they want for the country, but rather an issue of not being spineless when you finally get to the point at which you could make a difference. People would throw their lot in with the pre-election Obama of 2008 nine times out of ten over a more principled leader merely because he expressed a fantastic vision in addition to magnetic charisma.

Is all that's stopping them is that they don't realize what their duty is? — Moliere

I'm not totally sure what it is, but I gave you my best guess. I'm just trying to appeal to their pre-existing feelings of duty because that seems to the most direct route to getting them to step up.

"We need good outcomes. X is a strong motivator, therefore X should be manipulated for the sake of good outcomes," in fact has nothing to do with the nature of X. X can be anything you like so long as it is a strong motivator. The idea is more truly about the manipulation of strong motivations for the sake of good outcomes, and is only about X in an incidental way. — Leontiskos

It is not quite as incidental as it seems, because I am making an appeal to the duty of certain people to lead because they would do a lot of good in doing so - and appealing to their pre-existing ideas of duty is the best way. That has less to do with how effective duty is as a motivator and more to do with perceived ethical obligations. It is somewhat incidental, as you note, that a sense of duty would be what the leader tries to foster in those they lead, however.

using duty as a means to an end is rather ironic given that duty is supposed to be intrinsically contrary to such use. If a leader believes that someone has a duty to do something, and he tries to convince them of this, then he is being honest. If a leader believes that someone has no duty to do something, but he tries to convince them that they do, then he is being dishonest. He is being dishonest even if he is lying to them for a good end (good outcome). The dishonesty arises because he uses the word or concept 'duty' in a false sense, and he wishes them to falsely believe that they have a duty so that he can achieve his end, which he considers to be good. — Leontiskos

if duty is being recommended independently of what ought to be done (in a rather intrinsic sense), we are on shaky ground. — Leontiskos

Read my reply to :

If you follow a command- even an ethical one, you have to do it for a reason. Well, how do you know if that reason is "good" or not? Generally that more meta-ethical question has to do with issues dealing with universal principles. These universal principles, in turn, have to do with something more though. Simply being universal doesn't confer
— schopenhauer1

the meta-ethical root of ethical action and sensibility is the emotional component of compassion. Compassion applied to ethics, is not violating the content (dignity) of others. Violating this dignity would be things like not respecting autonomy of others, not respecting the suffering of others, etc. So that is how I think deontology is rooted. It can't simply be duty for duty's sake.
— schopenhauer1

Probably the best reply yet.

I agree with you. Duty is at best a vehicle for (likely deontological) moral convictions and an outlet for action, as duty for duty's sake is not sufficient to provide a meta-ethical base. Duty, I would still say, is the keystone of putting together a moral world, however, but must be guided by compassion and respect for the dignity of others. — ToothyMaw

In light of this, I would argue for authenticity and candor on the part of a leader, and, even if people are being cleverly controlled, there must be good reasons for doing so and, if the leader can supply these good reasons for one to throw their lot in with them, there will be no myth-making or noble lies.

The thing that is interesting about duty is how powerful it is, not that it is intrinsically moral as an end. One might argue that it is also a useful adaptation, but that kind of thing is far beyond my understanding.

In fact, sometimes we agree to give words new meanings without negating the other meanings those words have in order to discuss philosophy better.
— ToothyMaw
Of course you do. It's an insidious habit, leading to all sorts of problems - see Wittgenstein. Here, you think that you have explained how important duty is, when all you have done, as I and others have pointed out, is to say that leaders are manipulative.

You think you have done something profound, when you have only done something silly. — Banno

Look, Banno, it is easy to send these little snippets of sarcasm and ill will at people trying to argue their point of view in good will. If you want to engage in cynical drive-bys, be my guest. But if you actually want to engage, even if you believe it is below you, you would stand to benefit too, I think.

I actually don't think I have done a very good job of arguing for what I'm arguing for, and do not believe I have said anything particularly profound. But I'm trying.

That's more than you can say, isn't it?

all you have done, as I and others have pointed out, is to say that leaders are manipulative. — Banno

No, I said the right leaders should use everything available to them to rally people to their cause and instill a sense of duty in them. I might have used the term "manipulate", but that doesn't always mean unscrupulousness - it can just mean controlling something cleverly.

If you follow a command- even an ethical one, you have to do it for a reason. Well, how do you know if that reason is "good" or not? Generally that more meta-ethical question has to do with issues dealing with universal principles. These universal principles, in turn, have to do with something more though. Simply being universal doesn't confer — schopenhauer1

the meta-ethical root of ethical action and sensibility is the emotional component of compassion. Compassion applied to ethics, is not violating the content (dignity) of others. Violating this dignity would be things like not respecting autonomy of others, not respecting the suffering of others, etc. So that is how I think deontology is rooted. It can't simply be duty for duty's sake. — schopenhauer1

Probably the best reply yet.

I agree with you. Duty is at best a vehicle for (likely deontological) moral convictions and an outlet for action, as duty for duty's sake is not sufficient to provide a meta-ethical base. Duty, I would still say, is the keystone of putting together a moral world, however, but must be guided by compassion and respect for the dignity of others.

Perhaps one's notion of duty might be a simplistic mythical ideal that doesn't correspond very well with the way things happen in human societies? — wonderer1

...

Perhaps it says something about how comfortable humans find it, to feel like we have a role in our social primate band?

Perhaps duty is a reification humanity came up with for discussing the strong impulse to take care of the family? — wonderer1

Those are undoubtedly good questions. I'm more concerned about how to go about getting the right people to step up and give the people who want change direction, as I think a dutiful, loyal leader can make the difference.

No, I'm saying that said it was slavery to give a fetus rights in another post. I don't think it's slavery either, and thus tried to call him out on that ridiculous comparison. I'm pro-choice too, I just think we shouldn't go overboard and say dumb stuff like that.

180 said women should have abortion on demand even in the third trimester, and that it is basically slavery to give the fetus any consideration other than that it can be terminated at will. He said it in a post on another thread. Unless I'm misinterpreting what he said. And thanks for the correction, I thought there were legal consequences for giving your child fetal alcohol syndrome for some reason.

for example, it might have been the case that the people who joined the movement were just extremely bored at the time, with nothing better to do, or even that some other incentives for joining were offered, that are undisclosed to us. — Metaphysician Undercover

Would you say that we should take into account boredom when discussing why a nazi became a nazi? Or would you attribute the joining to a mental weakness that is exploitable by charismatic leaders heading up (not so) righteous causes? Maybe we should consider whether or not they joined because their favorite uncle said he would buy them a case of beer if they did?

Well, I think there is two basic problems with the conclusions you draw from the experiment. First, is that you cannot necessarily say that it was a sense of duty which lead those people into that movement. — Metaphysician Undercover

Maybe so, but once they joined the movement, they had some idea of the duty they had to the movement and its leader; the expectation was that they would do their part, whatever that might have been, to serve the cause, and they clearly relished it. If that isn't duty, I don't know what is.

even if all those people were moved by a sense of duty, this does not validate your claim that duty is the "single strongest motivator for action", because there is no other motivators offered for comparison. — Metaphysician Undercover

Do I really have to go through all the different motivators humans have? My contention, if you have been paying attention, is that duty can override just about anything - not that it is the most prolific motivator.

Do you think the Spartans could have existed without their incredible elevation of duty above all else? It takes something powerful to get a mother, or wife, to tell her husband or son that they should die if they find defeat, and it takes a lot to get a man to fight until he dies merely for the benefit of the state or the tribe.

Love, you might say, is as powerful. It is certainly more pervasive, but I think it is too capricious. Ambition? No one who is motivated by ambition solely would make significant sacrifices for the less fortunate, or give their life, as it doesn't serve to further their own power or rank. So, what does that leave us? Self-righteousness like Hanover mentioned? There is a risk there, that you become so blind to certain other considerations that you lose yourself and your good intentions over time. Duty is always in context, always able to be revoked and applied elsewhere - and it never loses its edge so long as one avoids becoming cynical.

There is no indication of what percentage of the people exposed to the movement joined the movement, and there is no indication as to what other type of motivators those people were exposed to at the same time for comparison, to show that they chose the experimental movement out of a sense of duty, over something else. So for example, it might have been the case that the people who joined the movement were just extremely bored at the time, with nothing better to do, or even that some other incentives for joining were offered, that are undisclosed to us. (The followers were students, and the conditions were of course set up by the teacher who was carrying out the experiment, so he might have set up conditions of extreme boredom in the classroom, then offered the students 'something to do'.) — Metaphysician Undercover

Once again, I think the people joined for myriad reasons, including just feelings of obligation rooted in that the people in the movement expected other people to join, but quickly adapted to the movement and felt intense feelings of duty and a desire to serve once they joined. I mean, they delegated a bunch of different jobs that were carried out with fervor, including assigning the guy who started the experiment bodyguards.

And, once again, the important thing isn't the percentage of people who joined that were exposed to it, it was that anyone at all was able to be converted, let alone hundreds, and that those who joined were so zealous. As for the classroom being boring: any teacher who would do an experiment like this is probably an entertaining teacher.

Ah, OK, so you are not actually talking about duty on your thread of that name, but instead about manipulative leadership, and pretending that we call this "duty".

I'll leave you to it. You have enough problems here already. — Banno

Maybe you don't know this, but when we do philosophy sometimes words are used differently. In fact, sometimes we agree to give words new meanings without negating the other meanings those words have in order to discuss philosophy better. Fascinating, isn't it?

OK, so now it's your turn to demonstrate why you believe that this particular flower, the one you call "duty", is more prolific than all the rest. I don't see how the Third Wave experiment demonstrates this.

The article says "As the movement grew outside his class and began to number in the hundreds, the experiment had spiraled out of control. " There are millions, billions of people in the world, "outside his class", "hundreds" does not represent a majority. This is more like Trumpian logic, 'I have thousands of people at my rallies, therefore the majority supports me'. You might say 'I see hundreds of people motivated by duty, therefore duty is the single strongest motivator'. You have not provided the premises required to produce your conclusion. — Metaphysician Undercover

The point of the experiment was that he quickly formed a fascistic super movement. That it was localized at a school means nothing. It didn't have to grow into the millions for the point to be made: it is easy to manipulate people into acting like Nazis, who largely had an incredible sense of duty to their country, even if they were the epitome of evil.

If we can easily recreate the conditions that gave rise to the militaristic, hyper-nationalist Nazis, doesn't that say something about the power of duty to country and leader?

Also: I wasn't saying that the majority of people need to have a sense of duty for duty to be the most potent motivator. The flower comment was not meant to be taken so literally.

I still don't see how that is a lie. They aren't brainwashed; they are convinced that there is a good cause and that they should take it up. I would say manipulation is not always via unsavory means, although it has that connotation.
— ToothyMaw

That's at least pretty close to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Noble_lie ? Or not?

It's not brainwashing. It's myth making. — Moliere

It isn't, because at no point is there a requirement that a falsehood or myth be propagated. To say it plainly: the leader shows through duty to a cause that the cause is worthy and the people pick it up if they agree that this is a good cause led by a suitable leader. The causes one might propose could actually compromise social harmony in the short-term, but, if this leader is at all moral, it is unlikely they would spread a myth to gain power, as that could have all kinds of bad effects.

Maybe "manipulate" was the wrong word.

One should lead by example, demonstrating that a cause is worthy even without such an appeal.
— ToothyMaw

Seems like it would apply to Donald Trump and to Joe Biden, for instance. At least we can see that there are people who follow either leader, and so believe those leaders to be demonstrating their cause to be worthy. But you're blaming the leaders -- so it's not them.

In fact I think it's no one, if I'm reading you correctly.

So how am I to know this duty when I see it? — Moliere

Consistency, authenticity, candor, good intentions, competence, dedication to achieving clear goals that align with your own. The ability to listen. I think it is easy to recognize when someone is showing you the way to what you want, or what you think your nation needs.

the easiest leadership role one can be put in is one where one's followers all operate out of a sense of duty. One whose motivation is that of righteousness isn't someone in need of leadership. He's going to do as he's going to do and he's going to tell you to fuck off if you violate his sense of righteousness.. — Hanover

Righteousness is intertwined with duty; some of the most driven people feel duty to a righteous ideal. If you can get a man to airdrop into a jungle deep behind enemy lines with nothing but some basic navigational instruments and a rifle out of a sense of patriotic duty, you are playing with something powerful.

I don't know how aware of it you are, but you're rattling off many alarmingly convenient oversimplifications. — Judaka

I'm aware I'm simplifying things, but I wouldn't say that they are oversimplifications.

The immoral billionaires and their evil corporations are manipulating and abusing the innocent, who need a bold, righteous leader to rise. A hero who can lead us, the many, to a new, great future". Yeah, that's not what you said, it's my interpretation as a cynic, but how off is it really? — Judaka

The public is quite complicit in supporting the system that creates the conditions you're (probably) referring to. — Judaka

I have said in this thread that the people need to be redeemed because we very much are complicit in the current situation we find ourselves in, that we support the systems that keep us down, and that a leader needs to come along and help us start helping ourselves.

Philosophers often seem to overly rely on interpreting problems through a moral lens. — Judaka

If we didn't view it through a moral lens there would be no impetus for change - or any recognition that such a paucity would even matter. You might claim that it is not beneficial to be so intensely judgmental of corporations and billionaires...but I don't know why you would.

It’s probably just a fantasy, but I enjoy picturing a world where social conditions are not twisted to the extreme like taffy, and citizens are not stuck like flies in the sticky morass. — 0 thru 9

That's a good way of putting it. Maybe some day, right?

I probably have a different sort of ‘patriot’ in mind: Bernie Sanders lol.
Yeah, he lost, he’s too old, he’s not a reeeeal genuwine patriot, etc. (Some may say). — 0 thru 9

Yeah, Bernie is great. I would call him a patriot and would vote for him if he ran again.

Interesting, but I don’t see why a person’s sense of duty needs to be controlled, redeemed, or influenced by some kind of ideal leader. “the right people in the right position to lead”, as you write. — 0 thru 9

Well, are you prepared to be the president of the United States? Do you think I am? Would you trust, for instance, a bigot to do a good job? Or a career criminal? Some people are objectively more prepared than others.

And yes, I think the right leader can help us make things the way they should have been a long time ago; if the people could do it on their own it would have happened by now.

And who are these “right people”? Any examples? Are they ‘true patriots’?
Are you referring to the USA and its upcoming elections, or any country?
Some further description might help. — 0 thru 9

I think that if you are asking those questions you already have some ideas of your own. I'm not going to name anyone, but yes, I would like a genuine patriot to be in office - even if they have some less than excellent ideas.

Or they just another politician? — 0 thru 9

Definitely not. They cannot be another politician.

. If one is genuinely trying to instill a sense of duty for a good, substantial reason, then no.
— ToothyMaw

I think that's pretty much what a noble lie amounts to: it's technically a lie, but it's for a good, substantial reason of drawing the people towards what's good. Since your account asks leaders to instill goodness in others through manipulation it seemed to fit. — Moliere

I still don't see how that is a lie. They aren't brainwashed; they are convinced that there is a good cause and that they should take it up. I would say manipulation is not always via unsavory means, although it has that connotation.

A cynical exploitation would not be a noble lie, but just a lie. — Moliere

It could be a noble lie if one subscribes to the definition of duty as merely what one "ought" to do, exploiting whatever pre-existing sense of duty there is in a person or people, even if it is to good ends. That, I think, is the wrong way to go about it. One should lead by example, demonstrating that a cause is worthy even without such an appeal.

These concepts can be real to one person and not another and it doesn't diminish the importance of duty to those who are attuned to it.
— ToothyMaw

I'm going to try and do a little philosophy with this sentence, if you don't mind.

Something that's confusing to me here is "concepts can be real" -- not the relativism, but just that sentence alone. My guess is you're saying duty is not a noble lie because duty is real, in some sense. So duty is real for some people, and not real for others. Is that correct? — Moliere

Yeah, that was directed at other people. My bad. It doesn't relate to what I was saying to you, and I wasn't going to say something ridiculous such as that duty is such a real concept for some that it exists in a way such that it cannot be a lie. However, go ahead and say what you want about it. I kind of want to know what you were going to say.

So duty is a kind of noble lie, then? — Moliere

Not necessarily. If peoples' existing sense of duty is cynically exploited in the way Banno seems to think it is, then yes. If one is genuinely trying to instill a sense of duty for a good, substantial reason, then no. Also, what said. These concepts can be real to one person and not another and it doesn't diminish the importance of duty to those who are attuned to it.

If the "Third Wave experiment" supports what you say, then maybe you need to describe it. — Metaphysician Undercover

Third Wave

I contend that duty is perhaps the single strongest motivator for action I can think of, whether it is duty to the tribe, an ideal, a spouse, etc., and should be nurtured wherever it exists to good ends.
— ToothyMaw

As others have indicated,↪Banno, ↪T Clark, this is really incorrect. I would characterize the motivator for action as "ambition", or even "spirit", but that's just my personal preference of words. The important point is that the motivator has personal a base, not a relation to something external like "duty". — Metaphysician Undercover

When I claim that duty is the single strongest motivator, I do not mean that it cancels out every other motivator, or even that it generally prevails over other motivators. Furthermore, according to the way I define "duty" it is personal, as it involves both expectations and how one internalizes those expectations. I contend that what makes duty powerful is that duty leads people to put themselves in all kinds of horrible or uncomfortable positions and situations more than anything else. For instance, a man might get inundated with motivational messages about how positive masculinity can be and how he needs to be able to personally protect his family, which he might view largely as pushback against whatever modern feminist arguments might be cited. This could lead to a man adopting any number of life-changing, traditionally masculine activities, like martial arts or lifting. And if you think that getting up early in the morning and getting strangled over and over again in myriad, potentially painful ways doesn't require the suppression of some basic human instincts, then you haven't hit the mats.

I suppose it could also be viewed as a modifier for more basic motivations. For instance, one might love their child and feel they have a duty to do right by that child, but I would also say that those two things - the parent's duty towards the child and the parent's love - are inextricable, as the parent has certain expectations for themselves, such as that they must provide for the child and be emotionally present for them, that are derived from love. These expectations don't have to be external and still give rise to intense feelings of duty.

"Duty" is better described as a director of action rather than a motivator of action. A person with no sense of duty might still be highly motivated to act. — Metaphysician Undercover

That some people are highly motivated without feeling duty says nothing about the power of duty, just as the claim that, say, there are more roses in a garden than any other type of flower is not affected by the claim that there are other types of flowers in a garden. That this "garden" could hypothetically have a different composition I grant, but all of the flowers need not be roses for most of them to be.

What do you think "everyone craves duty" actually means? People crave things, and this may or may not influence their ambition. It "may not" influence their ambition in cases of people who are lazy, or something like that, and so they still do not act on their cravings. But how would you say that "duty" relates to what people crave? Not only do I see no necessary relation here, but I see no relationship at all, due to the subjective nature of individuals and cravings. It's just like as if you are saying 'everyone craves chocolate ice cream'. It's really wrong on multiple levels. — Metaphysician Undercover

But if everyone really did crave chocolate ice cream whether they knew it or not, would it be wrong to say so?

duty is a conceptually odd critter. Your duty is what you ought to do; and what ought you do? Your duty, of course. It doesn't get us anywhere. Indeed, looking at how "duty" is usually used, it's more about what other folk think you ought do than what you think you ought do. "It's your duty" is used to cajole folk into acting against their own better judgement. — Banno

I literally define how I use the term, and you redefine it and complain that I'm trying to advocate for cajoling people into acting against their own better judgement? Nowhere do I say that duty is what one "ought" to do, but rather is a subjective motivator that can be manipulated by good leaders to good ends - which is what I'm actually advocating for here. I do, however, say that some leaders have a more specific obligation - which is the result of the tremendous amount of good they could do if they tried. If they want to ignore that, then so be it; I'm not telling anyone what to do.

I think you guys misunderstand - and this is not a call to militarism or nationalism. I'm saying that the leaders who can make a difference in the fight between two or more bad options, in a situation in which people are sick of choosing the lesser of two evils, those leaders who recognize their duty to the people they can benefit can inspire others to also do their duty - which I believe is to shrug off the mantle of US hegemony, a disregard for the working people, general befuddlement caused by the oligarchs' emphasis on the distraction that is the culture war, and the blocking of efforts to preserve the planet.

I'm calling out the leaders, not the people. And yes, I do maintain that duty is the most powerful motivator, as it can override just about any other consideration if the human is manipulated correctly. Remember the Third Wave experiment? In that instance it was used to harm, but such manipulations can be used for good. Many, if not most, of us have grown complacent, and good leaders with the peoples' best interests at heart need to intervene - before a nasty, fascistic one does.

duty ... exists only as a meta-construction - as recursive and a sum of its parts
— ToothyMaw

I'm sorry, but I won't die for a meta-construction, even a recursive one. — BC

I'm not suggesting anyone sacrifice themselves. I suggest that we organize strikes and consolidate our efforts around some good prospects and vote them in to effect change. No dying required.

A laughable OP. Only, it's no joke. — Banno

I see you stopped by to offer absolutely nothing, as usual.

If duty is such a strong motivator, and one such duty is to do good, why are the current circumstances so in dire need of "rising up"? Has that duty of good-doing been inactive until now? Was it impotent? — Judaka

The people are distracted, disillusioned, and misled in a system that presents false dilemmas and destroys any attempts the common people make to better their lives. We live under the yoke of the corporation and the billionaire, both of which have disproportionate impacts on policy such that getting anything off the ground is a tremendous effort - and just when we think we might win our prospects get shot in the back of the head by corporatist, career politicians. So, I say that duty has been here all along, it has mostly just lain dormant - but it flares up sporadically, giving us insight into what could be if the right man or woman came along.

You aren't the only one here being stupid, but you are the worst offender.

You appear to argue here and elsewhere that abortion should be a right for any woman for any reason, at almost any time, anywhere, regardless of the potential personhood of the fetus they carry. This argument is absurd.

First off, the freedom to kill seems to imply the freedom to harm in this context; after all, you go so far as to say a woman is a slave to the fetus inside her if we give said fetus any of its own rights. If the woman’s bodily autonomy totally overrides the rights of the fetus then why isn’t she allowed to drink alcohol while pregnant? Is it because the fascists seek to control women’s bodies?

No - it is because it is deplorable and would make you a fucking asshole, as does killing a genuine philosophical person for no compelling reason.

Others in this thread have pointed out that we do indeed regulate what goes in and out of peoples’ bodies. What about forcing people to get the vaccine? How many of you were in favor of that? Many of you, iirc. I actually agree that mandating the vaccine would be a good, but according to some of the specific logic applied to abortion no one should ever be forced to get a vaccine - even if it would save lives. How do you guys square that?

I concede I’ll never have to worry about getting an abortion, and women should indisputably be able to get abortions for rape, incest, serious psychological reasons, etc. at any point in a pregnancy, but the bodily autonomy argument is not so great unless one follows it to all of its conclusions. Or one can just continue to tilt at windmills, saving women from fetal slavery one grammatically impenetrable post at a time.

I said it was a foundation, not all you need. — NOS4A2

You are being slippery. You claim that with just this foundation one can see through "the propaganda" and that this foundation is a prerequisite, which could mean that it is necessary and sufficient, or just necessary for forming beliefs.

If it is merely necessary, you have not provided the rest of what is required to form the right beliefs.

How does that provide any sort of dialectic or guiding principles towards forming beliefs? All you need is logic, grammar, and rhetoric? Isn't everyone on this forum endowed with an understanding of such things, yet we disagree fervently on what to believe? Surely not everyone who disagrees with N0S is a purveyor or victim of propaganda?

"How to choose what to believe?"

Can we "choose" what to believe? 95%, no; 5% yes.

"Beliefs" are derived from experience — BC

WHAT WE FIND BELIEVABLE and WHAT WE FIND NOT BELIEVABLE will be largely determined by the multitude of experiences we have had.

Maybe as a mature adult, one will actually decide to reject a previous belief or accept a new belief. An adult raised in a sexually repressive household who discovers he is gay, may have to make an effort as an adult to believe gayness is good and live accordingly. Or a career criminal may decide to go straight.

But mostly we don't decide. — BC

Your position seems to be virtually deterministic, and I don't think you are giving chosen belief enough credit. I'm going to try to reframe the discussion because I think we are headed towards a wall.

Many beliefs might be derived from experience, but one usually has a choice at some point in their lives to shed the beliefs that were instilled in them in favor of new ones, if we are talking about incompatible beliefs. It is interesting that the tradeoff in beliefs you give as examples are beliefs that might revolutionize one's life. I would say that the small percentage of beliefs one might choose, even if it is as low as 5%, can be the most potent, as they are likely to induce large and often positive changes in the way one lives, if the person so desires it.

I would say that if one wants to change one's life by adopting new beliefs, one can really effect some serious change depending on how sweeping those changes in beliefs are - regardless of one's unchosen beliefs.

Thus, even if you are right in terms of percentages, this discussion of how to choose one's beliefs is still very important imo, and shouldn't be dismissed merely because it is impossible to determine exactly why, for example, one prefers salty snacks to sweet ones. Or the color blue to yellow.

WHAT WE FIND BELIEVABLE and WHAT WE FIND NOT BELIEVABLE will be largely determined by the multitude of experiences we have had. — BC

Or one could apply rational thought to come to the conclusion that, say, a fetus is not a person, and that a cow is - regardless of their prior beliefs. Most people who would believe such a thing have probably read some ethical philosophy, because most people aren't brought up to believe that a cow is more of a person than a fetus. This conclusion is actually pretty radical and opens up a lot of potential avenues for action. These kinds of radical, and often logical, conclusions, are relatively common, and I think people use valid reasoning to reach them more often than you claim.

For instance, the intense hatred for corporate media among some is concurrent with a rejection of what they claim is propaganda. How would they determine that it is propaganda if not by some sort of dialectic they apply or see someone else apply? This dialectic need not lead to correct conclusions to make the point, but rather merely result in the selection of certain beliefs over others.

You might say some people are sheep who just blindly accuse corporate media of being propaganda, but I tend to think they applied at least some sort of reasoning to come to that conclusion.

Welcome to the forum.

As far as beliefs go - I think one will naturally form beliefs and morals if they stay true to some core principles while practicing skepticism and speaking truth to power. One can't help but be informed by their upbringing, but I think anyone, if they try hard enough and are capable of some introspection, can transcend that and be something greater than a product of circumstance.

As far as being bullied by the government goes: don't give an inch. The government should serve, protect, and be accountable to its citizens above all else. Wherever it oversteps is a threat to our freedom and wellbeing. We shouldn't let the government tell us what is good or right, and we shouldn't desire a nanny state.

I would argue that sounds like a performative contradiction. You say you believe one thing, but you act like you believe another. — Echarmion

I just act. I don't act like a I have free will, or anything like it. You seem to think that acting and setting goals indicates free will. I don't. I say it is just biology and environmental stimuli. But even if I don't have free choice I still have choice. All of this is entirely coherent. The contradictions come in when you consider the legal system.

The problem is that you can't abdicate that ability. — Echarmion

Give me a counter-argument that says one always has the freedom to choose even in the presence of constraints that allow for only one choice given you want to maintain some ongoing condition.

furthermore, there's the problem of setting and evaluating goals. Even if you have a perfect utilitarian algorithm, it can't set and evaluate goals. — Echarmion

Maybe not, but can we not generally seek to maximize the fulfilment of preferences, or maximize happiness, or minimize suffering? Doesn't such an algorithm presuppose such a goal? Couldn't this general goal guide us to create and evaluate more specific goals? Maybe it wouldn't be as clear as a deontological sense of justice or something, but it could give rise to such efforts.

Technically they did. Of course they may be inspired by what someone said or wrote, but taking an argument from someone else still involves understanding and interpretation, and what results is always your take. — Echarmion

There is usually a clear, intended meaning in philosophy - despite what you might think from reading some of the stuff on this forum. This isn't literary interpretation. And this meaning originates outside my mind, presumably on a computer screen or a piece of paper.

It could be easily dismissed if it wasn't for the fact that you constantly assume that you have free will whenever you act - even when you're just thinking and deciding. — Echarmion

I actually don't, really. I make decisions but I don't think that I truly have free choice. That I act like I'm making decisions and setting goals freely does not necessarily presuppose that I have free will.

You might argue that it is absurd to believe that I don't have free will because it looks like I do in every regard.

Your argument is that making a decision with a definite outcome doesn't involve free will. — Echarmion

No, it is that if you want to be a rational rule consequentialist, or perhaps even deontologist, you must abdicate your ability to choose because of the very nature of some of the laws in place, along with premise (2). You don't have any meaningful choices sometimes if you fall into the same trap as the good-intentioned act-utilitarian.

Assumptions are not external though. Fundamentally they're only in your head. — Echarmion

These particular assumptions did not originate in my head. I don't even know why you are going there, unless it is to make the point that the laws I make up don't matter because I said something like that about your made up laws earlier.

We can only have such a debate with ourselves in the first place via the impression of free will. — Echarmion

I hate it when people say this. Perhaps a paranoid person has an impression they are being watched. Does this impression grant any weight to her assumption that there is a conspiracy against her? Certainly not, and that goes for free will too - even if this impression is almost universal.

I intentionally didn't define exactly what utility is, as the thing being maximized might vary according to each relevant law. But for the rule consequentialist utility would probably equate to welfare most of the time, and that is most relevant for that portion of the OP.
— ToothyMaw

And so my question would be, are you "choosing" to use welfare here or is this value somehow pressed on you by externalities? — Echarmion

This is pressed on me by the assumptions most consequentialists make. I do not particularly think we should only take into account welfare, as there might be other meaningful things worth maximizing.

Well, I have issue with saying that laws can be only based on consequences because no one knows the full consequences of their actions. — I like sushi

You might not know the full consequences of your actions, but one might know that following a certain law when it applies will generally maximize the consequences the law is shooting for.

it seems like I have to assume there is some hypothetical law that can be seen as unquestionably ‘the best’ law. If so then why would anyone question it. Point being rules are questioned and the kind of ‘laws’ I believe you have in mind are not ever brought into examination they are just accepted. — I like sushi

I'm saying that if a law selects for consequences, and you grant (2), you end up with the conclusion that you must follow certain laws exclusively. You can question those laws, but the intent behind those laws remains, and, thus, they are prone to this extrapolation. They could be changed like any other law, however, and not all laws are obviously based on consequences, so my argument is somewhat specific in this regard.

For comparisons sake, we do not question whether or not a ball will drop if released, we bring this inot question only when experience shows otherwise (ie. in outer space). Obviously we are talking about ethics here so there is far more to question here when it comes to human biases and subjective opinions soak with human emotions. — I like sushi

Why not question a law - even if it is one of the laws I mention? Certainly, the outcome of following any law would be less certain than dropping a ball near the surface of the Earth.

It seems to me that the act-utilitarian, for instance, always acts rationally when bringing about the best outcome - something I argued must always be attempted if one is to have good intentions - as the best outcome, which has the best consequences, is the only good outcome if all other outcomes have deficits of good consequences. So, the act-utilitarian must also relinquish their free will if they are to be a “good” consequentialist.
— ToothyMaw

This seems to be implying that free will must somehow involve you doing things at random, or for emotional, short sighted reasons which doesn't seem like an obvious premise. — Echarmion

Not what I'm saying. I'm saying that in terms of making choices about how to act in moral situations, one can only choose the decision with the best outcome if they want to be a good utilitarian. Choosing a second best outcome is not always emotional or short-sighted, although I do argue it is wrong.

If one acts according to what is rational, even if what is rational to a given agent is not rational from other perspectives, does one truly have free will in a meaningful sense, given people are inclined to act according to supposedly rational rules and laws?
— ToothyMaw

The obvious counter-question to this is what "free will in a meaningful sense" is supposed to be. There are people that argue that the essence of free will is the capacity to act rationally. — Echarmion

If freewill is acting rationally, and the act utilitarian has only one rational choice, would you still think that that is meaningful free will? I certainly don't.

Alternatively, you might list deontology or rule-consequentialism as examples in which one can be rational by following rational, impartially defensible laws. But did you make those laws?
— ToothyMaw

I don't think anyone else but me can make the laws that are in my mind. — Echarmion

You have no means of imposing those laws on anybody probably, so those laws don't matter much.

Given this argument holds, it appears that rule-consequentialism does indeed become more and more like act-utilitarianism as the laws get more specific, as premises (1) and (2) are granted by probably every rule consequentialist and some deontologists, too. So, if you want to make consequences matter, you have to grant that it is rational to only act in one very specific way - maximizing utility - in certain circumstances, and if you don’t like this, you have to deny premise (1), (2), or (1) and (2).
— ToothyMaw

The problem is that utility isn't defined here, so while this kind of reasoning is useful if you have a given value you want to maximise for, it doesn't give you that value by itself. — Echarmion

I intentionally didn't define exactly what utility is, as the thing being maximized might vary according to each relevant law. But for the rule consequentialist utility would probably equate to welfare most of the time, and that is most relevant for that portion of the OP.

Would you like me to try and explain it? What specifically didn't make sense? And yes, premise (2) is basically saying that if we form laws based on consequences, we ought to act according to those laws such that we gain maximum utility (in other words follow the appropriate law whenever it applies, something established in (6)), as the consequences mattering is crystalized in those laws. Even a deontologist might create a law that prioritizes consequences solely in order to bring about the desired consequences in the form of utility. If the law doesn't do that, then it is irrelevant to my argument.

And I never said all rules and laws are rational, or that people think all rules or laws are rational. The ones they might claim are, are the ones I'm concerned with, however.

I still disagree. I specifically say:

If one acts according to what is rational, even if what is rational to a given agent is not rational from other perspectives — ToothyMaw

This is the act-utilitarian, essentially. If they want to be good act-utilitarians they must grant what I write later - even though most people don't agree with them. The same goes for rule-consequentialists.

The main point of your paper is that rule-consequentialism becomes more like act-utilitarianism no? — Philosophim

You didn't fully understand it. Not only does rule-consequentialism become more like act-utilitarianism, it has serious implications for supposedly impartially defensible laws that are actually based on consequences for anybody. But yes, I emphasized that angle because I consider rule-consequentialism to be a serious challenge to act-utilitarianism.

Furthermore, the quality of human pain doesn't affect, say, whether or not it is wrong to slap someone because one lacks empathy, except insofar as that pain is undesirable. There is nothing about pain or a lack of empathy that dictates that slapping someone is inherently wrong from a consequentialist perspective.

Utility is inextricably related to consequences, so I would say this: honor might evoke a certain universal meaning when used, but it cannot be quantified and measured like consequences, and thus the process of deciding what decision has maximum utility is often apparent when one considers consequences. Alternatively, you might say it is obvious when an action is honorable, but it is only honorable according to an existing code that varies from one person to another, and from one culture to another. There are undoubtedly some common threads, but predicating decisions to what is "honorable" is like saying you will make a decision based on some sort of maximizing calculus. Such calculi exist, but what are you maximizing?

Also: if the two of you would just read the formal argument you would realize I stipulate in (1) that only the subset of those laws that are formed by reasoning about consequences are relevant.

I'm going to second T Clark here. This is twisting the idea of rationality into something its not. People are often not inclined to be rational at all. They'll smoke, they'll drink, etc. People rationalize, but that's not being rational. Many people don't even go that far. — Philosophim

With philosophy your argument starts with the very first premise you put forth. Your entire thesis statement starts with this assumption. The only thing which should be assumed is that most people are not going to let assumptions pass by without asking you to prove them. You may want to see if this assumption is unnecessary for the rest of your OP and remove it if possible. If not, I would re-evaluate your entire OP. — Philosophim

Ethics as a school of philosophical thought exists. That's my proof. I suppose I could preface my OP with the caveat that this intense thinking about morality is directed at other people who desire to think about morality rigorously; I'm not saying that everyone always tries to act rationally, but I think that creating a system that allows us to act rationally according to some reasonable ethical principles is the ultimate goal of ethical philosophy, even if many or most people don't care about anything like that. If you disagree with that, then you aren't really interested in ethics.

It's important to me that I treat people honorably. Sometimes I don't live up to that aspiration. The source of that isn't some formal, codified, "rational" ethical code, it's empathy and fellow-feeling. How does that make me directionless or irresponsible? — T Clark

I could talk in vagaries about honor and "fellow-feeling", two things which I think should exist as concepts because they are useful, but I'm more interested in drilling down to find some more certain things. Also, I don't think you are directionless or irresponsible as my comment wasn't intended to be an aspersion on you.

I wouldn't put it up here if I didn't want it to be picked at.

edit: I see you genuinely wanted to know. The premise everyone is up in arms about is solved when you recall that people philosophize about ethics, and that there are even scientists that are appointed as ethical advisors by the government and corporations and such.

I'm going to second T Clark here. This is twisting the idea of rationality into something its not. People are often not inclined to be rational at all. They'll smoke, they'll drink, etc. People rationalize, but that's not being rational. Many people don't even go that far. — Philosophim

I think most coherent people provide reasoning for their beliefs and the laws and rules they want to follow and impose on others - even if that reasoning is garbage. If I were to believe you and T Clark, everyone is just directionless hippies and/or irresponsible pleasure-seekers with absolutely no designs on being ethical in any substantial way.

Reason also does not mean an indisputable truth. Reason simply means we have derived a conclusion from a set of premises that is certain or highly probable. It does not mean the premises used are true, and consequently, does not mean our conclusion results in an indisputable truth either. — Philosophim

Yes, you are correct - but this is a quibble. I was wrong; I should have said that the rules people try to follow often come with some sort of reasoning, even if that reasoning has logical flaws or faulty premises. And reason doesn't give us indisputable truths.

I didn't expect people to attack the assumption that people often try to justify the laws they want with some forms of reasoning.