If you ever wanted to pick a time in the past million years, now is good in terms of what we will make of ourselves. — apokrisis

Eh I'd wager they say that every millennia. :grin:

Well rest assured both religion, science, and history reach a single conclusion that cannot be avoided. The planet, society, or "the world" can end in a moment's notice. All three state this as fact. Religion via God, science via a multitude of ways (climate change, gamma ray bursts, death of the Sun, too many to name really), and history in obvious ways such as politics, war, invasion, plague, etc.

Probably seems more doom and gloom than I claim to try and be but, none of it's happened yet! One could even say it's unlikely. Point being it shouldn't be "this debate" that suddenly gives what was always possible a "zing", though it may bring things from the back of the burner for a few minutes. Be prepared. I guess enough to be confident you have no reason to live in fear (or to be fair less reason than the next guy) as a result. Ignorance is bliss I suppose. But you wouldn't be here if that was your style.

Not exactly my point and though I wouldn't say so it's not like I could or even would disprove it. I'd instead assert there is a unique quality about the human mind over self-awareness that is evidenced in animals. Usually lol.

It appears the human body and most animals require a brain (which generally requires a head) to function in an intelligent way. Interestingly enough cockroaches can live without a head for a week or more. Lizard tails wriggle for quite some time after detached but we wouldn't call this intelligence or awareness or consciousness or a mind rather just nerves and impulses. A starfish can regenerate it's entire body from a limb. My point is since humans cannot do any of these things, this places the human brain and so mind above others. For obvious reasons. That's why we're not being hunted by killer starfish or dolphins using infrared technology, for example.

Perhaps the only answer would be "nothing".

Best keep that under wraps though. I often wonder if the majority of the thinking world ever starts thinking "nothing exists" the entirety of the universe and all existence would just vanish into nothingness.

Reminds me of an old episode of "Tales from the Darkside" called "Effect and Cause".

Thoughts on this?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mirror_test

If only it were just my own. You feed a cat or dog wet food they often won't easily go back to dry. Unless they're starving of course. Folks are the same way. And just like animals, they will fight and kill (or at least vote, heh) for whatever they perceive will ensure the continuance of life in the manner of which they've become accustomed. If I double your salary or income today, you would become accustomed to it. And if you found out there's something or someone that may force me to have to return it to what it was... you'd get to thinking. We'll leave it at that.

Sure, social animals cooperate with each other and don't go around murdering one another. They prey on smaller animals. Which is exactly my point. If the irrational (or even rational provided they convince themselves they'll have a guaranteed position of leadership) convince the rational (or anyone) to "follow their mindset/vision/belief" (religion) then those against it could become the minority and are now subject to predation. Fortunately these days that just means being outvoted. lol (usually)

Define "the mind". The brain does. We know that.

Say I need a cave to sleep in so I don't get soaked and can have a fire that lasts during a storm so I don't succumb to exposure or hypothermia.

My cave family or whatever have lived there for a generation or two now. We have very epic cave paintings we all enjoy on the walls.

If I don't "own it" what's to stop someone else or rather many persons from entering it and perhaps they don't quite know all we do about fires and dangerous plants or just otherwise bring some contagion in perhaps one we happen to be allergic to. Or decide to draw all over our epic cave paintings.

That'd be annoying if not fatal for one of us. What solutions would you propose that would be mutually-accepted? Again, if there's more people who want to do whatever they want in the cave we've lived in for generations, a "democratic" vote obviously screws me over.

Come up with an answer and please write it out before you unhide the following statement. No peeking.

So what protects us from the state? — NOS4A2

Sheer number. Free press. Open society. Gunzz. Though I'm hesitant to admit, instant online communication and sharing.

Probably the most important fact being at the end of the day public servicemen and women are just people too.

What are the differences and similarities between information and communication? Intent?

Dang. This is a neat topic.

Curious as to what both debaters think about the following statements.

As a child, pain is objectively bad. So is suffering, starvation, dehydration, neglect, abuse, etc. Any who disagree well I'm frankly curious. As I'm sure others would be. Basically why is what is bad for you, not bad for someone else? Because they're not you? Because they look different?

The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few. Excluding the obvious question of 'why are they the few'. Is the idea without value? If a town of 10,000, with 9,000 infected with some sort of lethal contagion with no cure but who don't think they are, not worth erm.. neutralizing to save the 1,000 who would have perished otherwise?

Curious. Thanks.

Information seems like it may or may not have any intrinsic value unless there is something to perceive or interpret it. DNA has information. Morse code has information. So does a text in a foreign language. But if we have no familiarity or understanding in how to interpret or process it, it's just a bunch of nonsense.

Information seems to have something in common with art that thing being it generally involves some conscious input. Back to perception. A bird (hopefully several) can crap on a windshield in a way that happens to resemble "2 + 2 = 4". It has no more or less information than if an esteemed math professor wrote it on a chalkboard.

Neat topic.

But why isn't there an update when a new shout is posted across the site that can be read by whoevers on wherever they're at? That's... whatever the opposite of something people want to participate in is.

Edit: Omg. Nvm.

Try reading it aloud or perhaps if it's just a casual copy of a book you own- consider highlighting or bookmarking pages that really speak to you.

Philosophy is.. complicated. Some say it's the pursuit of truth. Some say it's merely intellectual defense for views we have that may or may not be objective.

I think the problem would be if the teletransporter had a glitch and spat out two copies of you at once. Lol.

Now that's a debate.

Presumably the neurons in your brain are precisely configured ie. it's your exact "memory" or "consciousness" ... you literally enter it and exit it like walking through a door. You remember entering it and see you have now exited it.

Very metaphysical. What of the soul? Frightening to think about really. Best avoided imo.

There's a difference between teleporting an atom (or atoms) to another location and simply reproducing them in a new location. The former being something I don't believe science will ever be allowed to truly do, perhaps masking it as the former while it's truly the latter.

I guess I'd have to say you're probably better off not willingly allowing your body to be atomically disassembled. Call me crazy.

Just as it is to stop people from competing. Especially when money (resources) or women are involved. It's just human nature.

Two men work at a data processing firm. One makes his quotas and just kinda loafs around. The other goes above and beyond with his nose to the grind and makes every minute count. Who do you think would or should get promoted and how could that not potentially be the difference between the company reaching Fortune 500 status, ensuring all its employees are basically set for life and the company going bankrupt and having to lay off everyone?

If you had to have open heart surgery who would you want? The more experienced doctor or the less experienced one? Gotta throw 'em both into the gauntlet to find out who's best.

Fan of subjectivism, basically. A kind of moral solipsism, if you will.

I think contentness is a far more realistic goal in life than bliss, especially if you mean often or constant. Everything gets tiresome and vacuous after some time. Going by your premise, if you let it that is.

As to the metaphysics of suffering and why it's "allowed", well if you ask around here you'll get a familiar answer. Things just happen because they can. Which is not perfectly opposed to my own. A world without the possibility of suffering or misfortune is a world without risk which begets a world without passion, purpose, or excitement. Long story short you'd get sick of it. Which admittedly seems rather unlikely if one has been through much hardship. But you would. We suffer because we have the freedom and ability to make another suffer if we choose. It's whether we allow the suffering we experience brought on by another to infect us and allow it to spread like a cancer toward others out of anger, spite, or even simple indifference. This is what I believe a rational definition of "evil" could be defined as.

He takes nothing from the state and receives nothing from them. — Brett

Well considering all it did to ensure his residence and very existence and all it does toward his continued survival and security doing so when of sound mind and able body would be pretty egregious come to think of it. What are we going to do next? Start clapping and jumping up and down for joy when our 10 year olds don't piss all over the seat? It's an unfortunate fact that that part was actually worth mentioning. And it is. Again, unfortunately.

You think. Enough to share it. Therefore there is. For you at least.

Everything we call amazing today is because it was thought of as impossible at one point or otherwise embodies some sort of rarity. Otherwise it would have no value like a single blade of grass from your lawn or a drop of rain from the sky.

As was how we're communicating now. Precisely as the thought of what allows us to communicate now before it became reality.

nor his general thinking the ultimate Truth. — Xtrix

Do you feel it leads you toward it or away from it? Not much more you can ask for these days really.

And thanks to those who lived there now we can.

Not a necessity now sure, but there's something to be said about the life, society, and culture of a period that inspired the art, idea, or creation in the first place.

These days we just have things like "Duchamp's Urinal" and "Work No. 837". If that's fine then wonderful. But don't act like you didn't or don't appreciate what was. Rather how it came to be for our own use and vain enjoyment.

I only chose this avatar because I enjoy Hedy's imagery here. — Azimuth

Right. Fashion as dictated or defined rather by the society of that time.

"Reality" as we believe we know it, is dynamic, in constant fluctuation, and is therefore unknowable. Circumstance is what we often mistake it for. And in doing so, open ourselves to manipulation, bewilderment, and ridicule when changed.

How about just 50 then. Your avatar suggests there's something you value about that time.

Another reason could be as far as why entrepreneurship has declined in general... is that some believe something along the lines of "everything that can be invented already has" and the same with thoughts, words, concepts, and ideas.

I don't think there are many strip malls or plazas I could visit today that, assuming they keep everything in stock, wouldn't be able to keep me alive, happy, and then some for several lifetimes. Of course, for all we know they said the same thing 2,000 years ago...

Seems to be the future is technological innovation. Advancing medicine, computers, science, all that. Not so much neat trinkets or personal devices. Though it will produce plenty.

The idea of a philosopher using his knowledge and insight to "set up a company" and earn money in a way that becomes exponentially easier after the initial hard work up front is what we're talking about I gather.

Well aside from the fact that competition and variety for the consumer is needed to spur innovation and be a natural guard against price gouging, there's always gonna be hard or at least constant work to stay ahead or even afloat. It can be done. With patents. But unfortunately logic alone won't guarantee a successful and profitable business, especially in today's moneymaking fields of technology, science, medicine, defense, etc. You need technical "nitty gritty" knowledge as well. Gotta either learn it all yourself or find someone who does you can trust (which is the real challenge) and go from there.

I don't think you misunderstood anything it's just called reading some dude's opinion and finding it to not make much sense. lol.

Let's try to answer the premise though. Let's name some unquestionable answers and unanswerable questions, if you may. Some I would say are...

What happens if your heart stops? Your body dies.
What happens when an ignitable substance is introduced to a flame or spark? It ignites.

Etc...

Compared to unanswerable questions.

Is there life after death in a realm that is undetectable to us here and now?
What is the item in a box that someone placed there that we cannot see or open?

Unanswered vs. unanswerable is something to factor in.

Good points made in the thread already. It's a matter of subjective views on an ideal that should be objective. Seems to me there's two groups of people who believe in it. Those who want to maintain and restore values (courtesy, politeness, equality, just general non-toxicity) and those who want to subvert or change them and society from longstanding, time-tested tradition (Christian holidays, ideal gender roles, importance of the nuclear family, etc.)

And as some replies suggest, then there are those just putting on an act. No one in government or any position of anything should be using slurs, bigotry, or anything that makes the place or group they represent seem like a toxic nightmare world. Now perhaps they'll go and be as PC as can be at work, then go home and use slurs in private. Not unexpected.

As was mentioned there's a big difference between using and not using hurtful racial or ethnic or other slurs compared to saying or not saying "spokesperson" or "Merry Christmas". There is free speech however. In and of itself it cannot be illegal for a random citizen. Now the stupidity is dangerous and punishable by social measure. See the FedEx driver who fatally assaulted a man in Oregon after being called the N-word. All charges were dropped. I'm telling you guys this equality thing is working.

You can't know what is fiction without knowing what is fact. So what is fact? If there are none, how can we be sure fiction even exists?

Safe word here is 'perception'. Either backed up by enough to compartmentalize it where the at this point theoretical 'fact' goes or just you calling it as you see it.

Oddly solipsistic if you ask me. Which may or may not be detrimental to advancing the philosophical thought process.

Perhaps it's not overpopulation in and of itself.. but of those who are unable to offer a humane solution ie. technology either by super efficiency in resources or colonization of planets. lol.

Of course. Neither matters if everyone still keeps trying to destroy each other. Might as well be contained here than be allowed to run amok elsewhere.

So is it the thought that counts, basically?

Pretty much summed it up. Depends. lol

I'm sure we could all think of a thousand scenarios where one view holds water where the other doesn't.

Moral philosophy you say.

Well thanks to freedom of thought you're free to choose you're own way.

Let's think of two inversely relevant examples.

You try to stop your neighbor's house from burning down and though you have a hose outside that can reach it is small and the pressure is low and so you instead reach for the phone to call emergency services. Say for some reason there's a bee on it which you happen to be allergic to and perish.

It burns down. No one was home and the pad was insured for a cool few million. Your neighbor collects, moves, and goes on to start a business that turns into a large global chain and ends up benefiting your home town beyond anything anyone could have imagined. Whereas if you had extinguished the fire, the house would have remained, let's say continued to lower property values and the area would've became a financial and investing wasteland leaving both you, him, and everyone else in financial ruin.

Unlikely? Yeah. But possible. One consolation is if a large enough perception of a well-intended action can not only null but reverse a negative effect. Say people see it decide to start a funding raising campaign that does exactly that. Of course, it falls on perception. Meaning literally none of the aforementioned needs to have happened only people need to believe it did,.

Public opinion rules the world and therefore is reality. Only religion can say otherwise.

Visually or logically? There's a distinction. Perhaps not a great one.

Would seem to me the mind seems to prefer complete shapes mixed with open accent patterns. Say a marble column accented by a wreath.

Could be wrong but that's just what it would seem based on the prevalence of pattern and design that seems to have gained popularity/stood the test of time.

The deeper mechanics to that (if correct) are at the moment an enigma.

Aesthetics. Ornaments. Etc. Very interesting and worth delving into full discussion about.

Pretty for one. Perhaps mentally invigorating or even occupying for another. Perhaps the concept of "balance" or even symmetry plays a role. Who could say.

Non-visually as in logic or math. Well it's just what happens when your brain connects two and two together. That's, after all, how we advanced so far. Is it simply trying to find shortcuts mentally or something greater? Now there's a debate.

1. what does having made a simulated universe say about the civilisation that made it?
2. given that the simulation is, or should be, undetectable by those inside it, how, precisely, does its existence communicate anything to anyone else? — Kaarlo Tuomi

That it knows how to turn minerals into circuitry, at least. Most civilizations are diverse, just because someone from somewhere did a thing doesn't necessarily represent the society.

What do you mean by "those"? Is my World of Warcraft character it's own person now for some reason? Getting into AI/trans-humanism otherwise. Very controversial. Is it like a memory transfer thing where I exist outside of it and a character with (assuming it could be possible- my exact memories and persona per se) is in this simulation and so can develop itself further and become someone else? How would it be tied to me, here?

Show me something that I cannot call nothing and believe it as such.

For that matter, show me nothing that I cannot call something.

A non-reply could be a shunning and carry greater message then many replies could.

Lots of people do lots of things for lots of reasons. Usually it's because they either have seen both society and culture both with and without faith. Or they want you to think or behave a certain way and view them as something elevated above this world and naturally yourself. It's probably 50/50.

The intellectual argument is simple. People want what benefits them here and now and if there is a later, later- and want to be on the winning side. Which alone begets a society of immoral leeches. So. You change things up. Suddenly faith has value. Not being a degenerate suddenly doesn't pay out automatically. It's pretty solid. Say you have a family business and have no heirs. Who do you want to look after it? Someone who thinks it's essentially without value, who you met as a literal nobody and has no reason to believe otherwise and convinces you they truly love the business for what it is, or the first prick who responds to a crap load of dollar signs if the paperwork is in order? Common sense, really.

There's flaws in every system. Decency can be abused and good intent turned into something of greater detriment than ill will. It's not perfect. That's why it is. Get it?

Less to worry about. Simple enough. Though some will write books to argue otherwise...

Can't help but want to label this as a good and productive thread. Even though some concepts, unbeknownst to the purveyor, can have insidious qualities.

If you "enjoy" something, does it not make sense to ensure you have ample time and resources to do so? Absolutely. But that's not what philosophy is about. It's about experience, perception, "viewing things from all angles" especially the most common and even at times the most undesirable and from there rationalizing and so and so forth new or forgotten avenues of thought one can use in life. Usually with the goal of benefiting a society, people, or perhaps even yourself.

Does philosophy make money? If you're a highly paid professor at a top university, it sure will. Or an author with an interesting and original enough premise. Or just the go-to guy who always has something intrinsically useful, beneficial, or at least interesting to say, will get you ahead in life. On a cynical hand, some may say something along the lines of if the doctor is too good the hospital will close. You'd want to hope most don't think like that but like it or not the logic is there. Many applications that philosophy has, sciences particularly theoretical fields, counselors, therapists, business analytics, trends, there's hardly a field that doesn't have at least a tangential use for philosophy.

As far as the entrepreneurship part goes, one view is that the logical man seldom gambles. He can. And may make a fortune. But it's a risk. Granted the more planning and fail-safe-esque procedures and mechanisms you can employ reduce it. But some just don't live life like that.

Erm..



Little late for that.

In a way people know this. You don't walk out from the theater after seeing a superhero or an alien movie wondering if it was a documentary do you?

Society of monks, hermits, or peoples who otherwise avoid eachother for whatever reason. Or perhaps, the go to example, a society of open slavery are examples of a society engaging in antisocial or otherwise subhuman/dehumanizing behaviors are they not?

Fantasy becomes reality all the time. An early society of homogeneous peoples discussing the idea of "other people just like us but different" somewhere in the universe. Traveling the ocean. Space travel. Instant communication between peoples halfway around the world. Too many to list. You're using a floor as a ceiling by reducing the idea of society or reality-inducing change as "fantasy" in order to preserve belief.

You're confident in its value, correct? Why not just turn it into cash then. Shouldn't be a big deal.