We harm this planet and each other and we can't contribute nearly enough to justify the harm. — TiredThinker

There are people who can- and you should listen.

Can we properly examine life while still alive? — TiredThinker

Based on your premise of there being no evidence of another life, this would be the only time we can. As you did just now.

If there is no afterlife can we assume life had no meaning? — TiredThinker

That would only give it all the more meaning as a matter of fact. I mean. What else is there? Something valuable or rare is only valuable or rare because it exists but in such few numbers. Right?

I was itching to post something like this. :grin:

Yes, because all the actions done by the production and lottery company, and the store, and all the workers, and shipment, lead for that lottery ticket to be there, and his conditions, his inability to control his wants, his past experiences and actions lead him to buying that specific lottery ticket. — Augustusea

Done by human action using their free will... somewhere down the line there's some guy doing what he wanted to just because. The guy who created the lottery company chose to do so? The workers chose to work in said store versus another? The shipping company founder chose to start up the company?

Well, and I can gather the response already, say he literally flipped a coin one day and decided to either spend his last extra entertainment money either on renting a movie or buying a lottery ticket. That coin flip- and nothing else- literally determined him buying the lottery ticket. I suppose we'll say it's literally the exact amount of force used as determined by whatever circumstance determined his mood at the time of flipping... that determined precisely how many times the coin would flip and what side it would land on, yeah?

I dunno... sure. Every cause has to have an effect. We're getting into the territory of refuting Newton's Laws of Motion at that point. But human will generally determined things again if not somewhere down the line. I think that's what we're forgetting.

Other people's free will determines other people's choices. Agree or disagree and why?

Bonus: Thoughts on the butterfly effect concept and resulting book and later movie?

My argument is, that you don't make the choices you think you do make, you have an illusion of choice, of free will, but it actually is none existent for life,
you have the illusion of two roads you can take to school, and the illusion of choosing road A for example, but you in reality didn't choose, you were determined to for the reasons I explained above. — Augustusea

If I understand correctly, and agree with much of it, our circumstances in which we make choices or otherwise determine what choices can be made is largely if not entirely outside of our control?

I get that. The average person has an average job and isn't a millionaire. He cannot go on crazy vacations more than a few times a year or splurge on things like second homes, boats, Rolex watches, etc. And- even if he does "randomly" win the lottery and all that changes, you'd insist on saying it really was not random and he was simply determined or dare I say "destined" to win the lottery. Right?

I guess the question that needs to be asked is what would you say would need to happen/what circumstances would a reality have where there is your definition of free will and how does that compare to the one we live in now?

point is, you don't choose your own breakfast,
that was pre determined by many factors before it and affecting it, — Augustusea

So along this line... there's truth here. You or I can't choose to have a 50-egg omelette the size of a truck tire with a side of caviar every morning... we can't afford it/don't have the ingredients.

The choices we have for breakfast are limited to what we have available and is a result of other circumstances. When we went shopping, what we bought, what we can and cannot afford or otherwise can and cannot eat or simply prefer to eat. It's not impossible to have nearly anything for breakfast, after all circumstances can and some even say- when undesirable- are meant to be changed.

So where does that leave us as far as determinism? Who knows, a friend can stop by with McDonald's or something on a whim and that ends up being your breakfast. Everything is determined by something. What I think that determinism doesn't properly include is that everything can change. The Earth could lose it's gravity one day. Some things (circumstances or "realities") are simply less likely to change than others.

If pessimism is the result of having to watch two people go back and forth, each time refusing to have their core beliefs challenged- it's looking more and more likely...

The two arguments presented for and against determinism present examples that make each true- yet leave out some examples or scenarios where each can be made less true ie. circumstantial to the other.

We don't have a choice in not feeling hungry. Unless you get drunk. Nevertheless our body will still "be" hungry. Does that mean you have to eat? It means you should. But if there is nothing or say you're not eating for some social purpose like a hunger strike. You can choose what to eat. Or you can choose to literally just starve if you really wanted to for some odd reason.

Biologically we're all slaves to hunger, thirst, the elements, etc. This is not unique to human beings. However to solely use these as the arguments for determinism does the philosophy a disservice.

If I was driving home one night after working double overtime and I was just so tired and dozed off, hitting another car and messing up my shoulder as well as my car and the others' and lose my license and job- there are two ways to look at what happened. I simply had to work that job as it was the only thing available to pay my bills and provide for myself and I needed the extra hours because I splurged on a few things last week- or rather something important came up. Ergo, some would say, nothing could have prevented what happened. A common statement during hard times ie. "it was just his time", etc. There's the obvious counter argument- "no it wasn't" lol. Saying it was preventable, etc.

That's the thing about arguing and getting upset about things that already happened- especially misfortune. It becomes tediously irrelevant. As long as lessons are learned that is..

Faith - the belief in something one desires believes is [or could be] true, despite there being no evidence of it, or even evidence that contradicts its existence. — Philosophim

FIFY.

Furthermore the discussion of anything that profoundly affects a large portion of society and related discussion is very philosophical.

Also, you kinda just described the scientific process lol. That's why theories are theories before they become scientific law. It's a search or quest for answers when they're are none- or as you said- some that would suggest the opposite.

I don’t think expertise and “eliteness” can be measured by formal credentials. Rather, I think positions of power and influence should be open to anyone of any class, so long as they possess the abilities and competence. — NOS4A2

So... what makes something an ability. Competence is basic coherence. Why is it an ability of any use if everyone can do it. That makes someone elite- in a way. So you want, and I'm going to hope you're from whatever country we're talking about and not acting under the auspices of another, the most qualified and crucial positions such as medicine, defense, technology, science, education, etc... to be replaced with just anyone who knows how to get dressed in the morning? Erm... yeah that's a big no. lol

Edit: Factoring in your argument that the majority of a country (everywhere btw) represents the most successful positions with your assertion (that is common knowledge) people prefer their own, you're saying they will systematically turn down or otherwise favor people of their own color or creed over equally qualified minorities? Yeah.. see now it's a debate. Reminds me of the whole immigrant fiasco. If there's all these problems and this is such a better place... let the army go in and clean it up so it's good and then they'll leave. Cover minimum costs, just enough to break even (gotta feed the boys somehow), and that's that. But no somehow solving a humanitarian crisis would now be a humanitarian crisis in and of itself. Somehow. It's crazy man. It's either better here or better there and if you want to come here while not wanting it to be better all around or in your homeland at least it's.. kinda selfish really. That said. Dunno how bad the corruption is here. These other places could be the last bastions of freedom and we should want to be there. lol, it's a toss up really

Anyway, let us continue. What are the arguments given from the former debater and what are yours? Again seperate the art from the artist. Let's hear it. Eager to continue. Be advised though, I may be even more opposed to your view than the creator of this thread! But I'll still debate with you unless you walk out also.

The elites are watching their power wane. — NOS4A2

That proves there's nothing "elite" about someone who.. just happens to be more fortunate than you lol. It's called circumstance or- hopefully- hard work paying off. So. I realize it's human(?) nature to hate another who has more regardless of why but I mean let's watch this video and hopefully chill out some. Otherwise just follow the law and you'll be fine. Or at least not invoke the true Law. Any further.



And beyond that. Do you really want 100% of your effort to literally be worth nothing as far as improving your livelihood? You'll say that on a computer in a nice house with a doctor nearby but I doubt you'll trade what you have and the way you live now for living like cavemen did? You signed up for it dude get over it. You literally wouldn't exist without the system that lets you criticize it so. Perhaps you should appreciate it more.

The US has never been the paragon of moral rectitude it's claimed for itself — tim wood

Lol. Sure. Just let subversives redefine everything and other people do what they want to control your whole life. See this is the cancer- no offense personally just the idea. The Constitution is simple, irrefutable. Doesn't matter if people who are diametrically opposed to the American ideal have controlled. directed or still control and direct the United States. People die, things get better. Unfortunately this pandemic is precisely what people need to realize this truth. "Accept reality" people will tell you. Yet- they will never accept that reality (what they refer to is really circumstance as a matter of fact) can change! And always has. Why would it not continue to do so? Because people tell you otherwise, usually in a threatening manner? Your choice guy. Always has been.

Lol. It's a global pandemic. I mean I'd be the first to say there's problems here but.. come on now.

If everyone in the playground has the flu the bigger guy is still gonna be stronger. Again strength should be used properly however that's a discussion for another day.

When we grow up into racist grandpas — fdrake

Are we going to publicly denounce and revoke all relationships to them while using/keeping/and abusing everything that's now yours as a result of their action and act like that's supposed to mean anything to anybody?

It's not even black and white there's people and groups who don't even exist anymore. I mean, it already happened. No reason to add hypocrisy to the list.

You don't have to literally devalue everything and anything in life to be a pessimist. Tangentially (i like that word), becoming disenchanted with (the joys of?) life and/or living in near-constant acknowledgement that terrible things can, do, and will happen doesn't make one a pessimist.

Also worth mentioning, just being rude is a separate thing altogether.

Pessimism seems to be an internal way of thinking aka a philosophy that a mentally sound person who does not have a mental complex can choose (or is otherwise forced to) embrace. I imagine the two get confused often.

And anyway, being too happy can lead to suicide too lol. Albeit at much lower rates but- yeah. The afterlife ie. "why am I wasting time in this dump?", etc.I gather you define suicide as a sudden and willful action to stop one's heart but there's plenty of other ways. A life of drugs and drinking, etc.

Give it time. If it ever becomes popular enough.

One of the many pacifist ("look we are good people") groups with the age old cosmic justice motif. Nice. Who started it and what are members told to do and where? Who calls the shots basically.

I'd imagine never. The parallels between comfort and boredom become quite evident for a highly intelligent person. So I'd imagine.

Probably right. Someone with a high IQ more than likely has an enjoyable and profitable job ie. is a "success" and would rather support the system than destroy it. Especially compared to someone with a menial minimum-wage job.

I don't think the hyperintelligent behave better or have any less inclination to misbehave than the rest. They just know how to get away with it more.

Racism can be solved by removing all depictions of ethnic minorities — fishfry

There we go. That's what you meant. As they say in forumspeak "FIFY".

Numbers are meaningless. It's about who and why. Obama mostly — Benkei

Mostly? Numbers are meaningless.

Now... am I saying go conquer it all and burn it all to the ground? Of course not. — Lif3r

The fact that this is even a warranted statement explains why we're all here and probably will be for some time.

Am I saying our plan should be to just ditch the planet we are on after we trash it? Also no. — Lif3r

Again, wow. Call it a proving ground, call it a correctional facility. Neither functions have been fulfilled so there's much more learning and progress to be made. Inward, not outward. You make a bed, you should lay in it- basically.

Well if we're gonna be religious about it perhaps it's worth keeping in mind God had to "give dominion to man over animals". One could deduce many things from this.

Basically, yeah. Again this is more of a historic injustice thread so I wouldn't have been so blunt.

Unless you're vocalizing a presumption about me? I'm a religious philosopher. You can give a man a fish and he'll eat for a day. But if you teach a man to fish... Poseidon might show up and invite you to party in Atlantis.

Anyway it's just human nature. Sometimes out of intelligence, sometimes out of laziness. You learn to work or invent something that works more efficiently... your time and efforts are maximized. And so will those of others. I mean, come on, is anyone who uses something that's not a virtual Rube Goldberg machine foolish or lazy?

I've thought about it. Unfortunately (or perhaps even fortunately) you tend to get less interested in the vain and materialistic dreams we're presented with 24/7. It'd be nice to take some cool and decent people somewhere nice every now and then. Few gifts maybe. Folks who deserve it. Though money, power, and influence are a trio seldom seperate, I just think there are more important things then mansions, yachts, and vacations that surpass the average teacher's salary in cost. Of course. These are not temptations that I have the opportunity to resist or indulge in so, who knows lol.

Myself, I'm fine with edible enough food (seasonings and spices can turn something ok into something great), place to stay, beer to drink, a car that's not a clunker, and a few folks to talk to. Anything else is just anything else. We all like nice things though.

I understand this discussion is more about historic injustices but my thoughts when I read the title before clicking....

"People confuse privilege with reward earned through effort."

Basically yeah, why would someone have invented the polio vaccine, the steam engine, the lightbulb, or the computer if they could just sit around all day. One should be careful in the pursuit of equality not to devalue human effort entirely.

How did you grow up, fdrake? You're a mod so you're open to more scrutiny of course. Did you enjoy it? Eitherhow, others who did, usually do.

So you like to let people sit in darkness when you say you have an answer. Don't knock your own creation. It might knock back.

Because if you did care about equality and "education" you would share your belief- "cold hard facts", sorry- with someone less educated. Yet you don't. Which shows your attitude is far worse than your presumption of any so called elite you speak of. See. You're no different. At all. Perhaps no one is.

the interests of the financial/corporate elite over and against those of middle and working class Americans. — Enai De A Lukal

Why do people work? So they can be rich like them. You can set a negative example or a positive one. Which would you prefer?

He can be pretty abrasive. But "that's why people like him" apparently it's "real" lol. Never know though... never know. Perhaps one day. But not now.

Wow. Then again when diplomacy fails... long live politics!

...at first I was trying to be concerned, allegedly. But the fact that semi-unique word is used by him only an hour after I suggested you should... is interesting. Politics, man. Game of Thrones. Good people can be controlled by emotions, by those without. Trust no one. Especially on the internet.

Or to put it in meme speak. I'm in ur inbox eating ur PMz.

Fight battles of spirit not flesh. Or mind not matter. Of course, spillover can always occur.

Who or what stop someone from trying to get ahead or perhaps even steal. Who controls them? This is perfectionist, idealist, utopian... wrongness. Lol.

Everything we eat turns to shit. — Frank Apisa

Which turns to fertilizer. Which in turn grows more food. Ergo, buying groceries is a scam. :wink:

These 10 words not only served to delay my response, but also required me to temper my response a number of times. For that, I thank you. — Scemo Villaggio

Just more of what I was saying. Gotta be right. Gotta have core beliefs protected and unchallenged. Until. Well. Let's not worry about that.

Shouldn't take much. It's already the majority view- by far. Summed up by the repeated use of "my". What works for me vs. thee, essentially.

Not quite so nuanced and black and white though. You seem to at least recognize the difference in an intellectual manner which already places you far above the actual majority. God speed. And good luck. Not that you need it... then again, not that I know your situation, perceived or not.

That's the paradox. One leaves another comes in. Why not just say the way to prevent death is for life to leave. Lol. Everyone has to make it worth their time or at least cover expense. Difference is, some won't bother with wellbeing of others. Unless they know they have to. Open media they say. Do the most powerful countries not have persons who care nothing about others and just want to smash and grab while keeping a clean image? Absolutely. Instead of being unrealistic, it's best to be discerning. Educated. Connected. And open. Options weighed. Like they say, better the devil you know.

Only chaff likes to see others complain and in misery. With or without cause. Crab mentality in a nutshell. Of course, the best chaff knows to appear as wheat, which can at times fool even the wisest of folk. And of course, no one knows what circumstances fathered a person and their mentality, views, attitude, or mannerisms. Someone awful could have secured much wealth and prosperity for a sibling who now lives in perfection that interacts with someone whom it was stolen from that now lives in anguish. You judge using a simple observation of the two you may miscategorize.

It's not something folk are meant to do. That is, your judgement is of your own and for your own. The ultimate process is something that takes far more than any one lifetime. Besides. If it were of such urgency, the amount of chaff would be in numbers where complaining is far from their first option.

Eliminating ie. de-incentivising via education and enlightenment versus fascist suppression of human thought and free will in a person's own mind for goodness sake is a world of difference. You can create a system like that, but you won't be able to control it for very long.

"Unexplained neologisms, distorted grammars, contradictory phrases, unusual meanings of words, endless sequences of ideas without conclusion, unstructured texts..."

Any of these from someone well known.

In a word, no. That's why it's not science and total enslavement. Lol. As some would say... always when they do harm to others never when it's done to themselves though. Then all the hands folds and knees bow.

Post some examples of short passages that encapsulate what you mean.