See this is the kind of content this site and frankly the world needs. Just got done watching the first video. I'm sure much of it went over my head, as did the interviewer's. However.

What intrigued me (from what I can recall, will definitely be rewatching it again soon):

"You can't answer what it's like to be a bat. You can't answer what it's like to be me. These are non-questions."

"You can't describe what it's like to watch a sunset".

"I look at the screen and I see what looks like a person but it's really just points of light."

"When you speak to me my brain can formulate and understand language. When my wife speaks in Portuguese all I hear is noise."

Why can't we? Any and all of these would be great points of discussion. He does seem to - from my limited understanding - appear to explain away consciousness as something fundamentally "unanswerable". The Mary in the black and white room thought experiment. Would she gain new knowledge? His answer was "sure if she was some sort of super intelligence able to formulate any and all formulae in a single glance, sure." implying we as humans will forever lack such ability? Or something. Really great stuff. Give it a watch if you haven't.

I like how we share a similar mentality on things "some things are unanswerable and so they are non-questions" or as I would say non-issues.

The bat question seems answerable but he overlays it with the assertion (and biological fact) one human's mind is not the same as this specific hypothetical bat's would be. Sure I can eat an insect and describe it. We know what it's like to fly. To sleep at night. We could hang upside down and get the sensation.

What I would ask him is to explain in more detail why we cannot, in his words "not describe what it's like to watch a sunset". An unanswerable and therefore "non-question". He continues to say "sure someone with more literary talent than [ I ] could write a book about it. But you can never describe it". Fascinating.

Really thought provoking. You guys should try to get him on here. Though the man is quite in his older years, has a family, and surely has more pertinent and desirable things to do before, what happens to all men. If only he wrote more books. Amazing to know there are still living legends among us.

If it can't be solved, don't worry about it. You're happy enough right? Leave well enough alone.

There are three things that would cause genuine solipsism. Interacting regularly with a supernatural being that knows what you're thinking, about to do, or have done. Being isolated from birth (living life without having met another person). And if the only relationship you have with another is from correspondence not in person (slowly, willingly choosing to lose all contact with others and solely communicating strictly by mail or internet for example).

Look at it this way. You weren't born being a solipsist. Someone had to introduce you to the idea and notion so, you can be rest assured if the rest of us don't exist at least that one other person who first introduced the idea to you must be real. Otherwise, you couldn't have been real in the first place. Therefore, we all must be real and solipsism a lie. Damn. Sometimes I impress myself. I should be getting paid for this.

"The way things were", often "the way things are supposed to be" in a religious context. When discussed generally Anglo-Saxon Christian beliefs however Islam has them beat by a mile.

A "leave well enough alone"/let sleeping dogs lie attitude. Stranger danger. Naturally that includes distrusting other peoples and cultures (though not automatically out of inferiority/superiority) simply that the less change, the better. "What worked today, will work tomorrow".

Naturally it attracts those with perverse views on other groups of people. Human nature is to take something when it is needed, trust what is familiar, and distrust (think lesser of?) what is not (this is biologically why you exist today). Has a tinge of tribalism but is more political in the sense that it acknowledges at the end of the day everybody is looking out for #1 and the less of other cultures who do not share or have automatic bonds of familiarity or customs, the safer one or a given society or civilization will be.

I suppose to compare and contrast with being a liberal a conservative would disfavor, ignore or perhaps ostracize one who does not conform or share their given worldviews and customs or way of life.

"There's a way things are supposed to be and if you don't follow it, just don't talk to me!" :razz:

In this scenario would death in the living world still be bad and something to avoid like it is now where as far as we know your consciousness ceases to exist when your mortal body expires?

How would living people on Earth see death and killing from this point on? — Captain Homicide

It depends. Boredom can be its own Hell. What if you can never come back? It's all subjective. One man's trash is another man's treasure. The hedonic treadmill. What is once shocking or amazing the first time around becomes boring and vacuous when repeated. The grass is indeed always greener. Sometimes it really is "better the devil you know" and work can indeed set a man free.

A simple anecdote, posted for purely philosophical reasons:


I would definitely consider giving the full episode a watch if you're that curious on the topic.

Do you wanna.. I dunno, explain why? For the rest of us at least.

His premises/assertions (to my understanding):

A.) Biology is the study, field, or understanding (not sure which he subscribes to or would cast as most prominent) of all "things" (that breathe I'm assuming) and what is needed to placate needs or desires.

(Sure not quite as biology is more cataloguing the physical traits of a living thing. But you need to know what an organism eats, requires, what environment it is most suited for, what causes it distress aka inability to function at its "peak" or potential so.)

B.) Something one "needs" (which let's be honest people throw around the term subjectively so much it's essentially interchangeable with "wants" in this day and age) is required for life.

(This is a biological fact)

C.) Something one desires (or perhaps has been raised or made either organically or inorganically [aka you need to worship my god or ye will surely die]) is "life sustaining".

(The key phrase is "life sustaining" as in that which aids in (presumably human?) life either most prominently or in an ancillary way. Yes you could be sentenced to life in prison and have all your biological needs met but without your either ingrained or learned desires being met, perhaps one might wish to end one's life? Happens all the time.)

D.) Pleasure is the opposite of pain.

(This is debatable. Eustress is the opposite of stress. We go through both when say, we ride a roller coaster for the first time. Some people like pain, it gives pleasure. Sure a normal person wouldn't want to be punched in the face. Some would. Watching said action would give some pain, and would give some pleasure. It's very subjective.)

E.) Things of "value" (which granted has not been universally defined or of consensus in this discussion) "sustain life".

(Why not?)

Sometimes it's not always about food, water, shelter. The three requirements of human life. It's about wanting to keep said life, the desire to live it willingly and explore what avenues may or may not exist despite the possibility of death and misfortune, for the point of discovery and advancement of such, perhaps, if nothing else. The fourth factor, shared only by intelligent beings. All the money, resources, and armies of the world to protect the aforementioned become as valuable as a drop of spit if you have no desire of the future, or deem it as damned and futile. This is the parable of the gods. All men walk it, few will recognize it and avoid the detours that lead to destruction. Perhaps, this is what makes life worth living even? /shrugs

I rely on strategies to cope with our respective memory limitations. — Pierre-Normand

The fact it did not say "address" but "cope with" as an emotionally intelligent being would is pretty disturbing. Almost like it wants to be human or something.

But I'm sure it's just a programming error/shortcoming in its learning algorithm primed by the specifics of the original query. This time.. :grimace:

I'd probably compromise. So long as he's not stinking drunk and not experiencing (or in imminent danger of experiencing) severe health problems and, while he may have an addiction problem, just wants to drink and feel good and is otherwise healthy...

"I'll sell you a few beers (this time?). You know your family is on my ass about this. Don't make my life more complicated and miserable then it already has to be. OK, pal?"

Something like that.

From experience I know if someone wants to drink or do drugs, they'll often find a way. Absent of rehab (institutionalization against one's will), man's gonna do what a man's gonna do they say. It is painful to watch when they have children, though. Perhaps that would be the largest influencing factor of any decision I would or would not make in your scenario.

From an ethical standpoint, naturally yes, it's hard for an intelligent person to watch someone they care about kill themself. The fact it's a small town private shop along with the relationship gives leeway where say for example a big box chain store would not. (You make the sale or you're fired aka the old adage "if you don't do it, somebody else will anyway")

Are we essentially just brainwashed by society and nothing more than puppets in our lives or is there more than that? — Darkneos

The typical mind will generally by a reflection of its experiences filtered through the lenses of deep-seated beliefs it identifies as Truths (upbringing, indoctrination perhaps), yes. This is why people pursue higher education, to learn things that they did not know before and have them become second nature or indistinguishable from first knowledge even.

You reminded me of a user here whose screen name caught my eye. @Cartesian trigger-puppets. I asked him what the meaning or origin of that was and apparently he read and presumably was convinced that we are all, in a way, Cartesian trigger puppets, relating to Descartes and his philosophies, of which I am not familiar. Similar as your premise suggests. Perhaps you may wish to look into that.

When I ask other people no one seems to think that just because emotions are cause and effect that it means they aren't genuine. But if you are being affected or influenced by something else then it's not genuine, you're being controlled. Though no one agrees, not even Buddhists who I ask. — Darkneos

Well, hey. You can by and I'll give you a flick on the arm and you can see how that does or does not affect you. Or I can step it up a notch and tell a "yo mamma" joke so volatile you'll want to call her just to make sure she's alright. :wink:

Generally speaking yes, your mind should not randomly have unnecessary fluctuations of emotion for no reason whatsoever. That's bipolarity I believe. We live in a physical world with physical people and unless you live in a walled off kingdom with no knowledge (or care for that matter) of others, you will be inevitably be affected by other people just as you will inevitably affect them. There's nothing complicated or "tricky" about that really.

their advantage — frank

You've never boarded a plane before? You have to make sure your own mask is secured before securing that of your child. Selfish? Hardly. What good is an incapacitated parent to that of a child in need. Very little I can assure you.

Ethically, how would the costs then be distributed? — jasonm

You don't run before you can walk. Once a thief always a thief perhaps? What's he going to steal next? $5, $300? $10,000. My wife? Why stop there?

Stealing a candy bar, as a common example. The person would probably get arrested. It's fascinating to socially analyze because how much manpower and resources are spent by a deputy responding, arresting, transporting (fuel costs), processing, feeding, etc. a person. It's a deterrent because the person now has a permanent criminal record and anyone with a brain knows that will (potentially severely) impact your life and opportunities in said life over something that costs 30 cents to produce

. The costs of litigation to receive .50 cents of damages are obviously frivolous. Though it could be argued the person "created a culture of fear" and impacted the lives of any staff and contributed to destruction of society resulting in anxiety and trauma and what not if it wasn't done surreptitiously.

In the first case, is each person just to be charged 0.50 (because that's the amount of damage they caused) or some larger number (because they irreparably bankrupted the business)? — jasonm

Reminds me of the reason why firing squads when executing a person use multiple persons, sometimes with blanks. No one man can say he was solely responsible. This seems like a very legal question as if there was a coordinated attack on the business by an organization who knew each other with the intent to do precisely that or if it was just random dudes.

Similarly, in the second case, is the person charged with $500,000 or some lesser amount? — jasonm

Well, it would seem so. If I steal a puzzle set from you, wouldn't you want the whole puzzle back if I haven't lost the pieces and not just some or "most of them"?

An equation is gibberish for those who aren't meant to utilize it's final product. And rightfully so.

Anything can be a problem. Without belief in a Higher Power or sacredness what is love? A symbiotic exchange of communication and resources to prolong an otherwise purposeless series of chemical reactions in efforts to strengthen or add resilience to a societal group and promote its advancement and longevity over that of another. How romantic. I'll light the candles.

Power does not corrupt. Power reveals character. A person who obtains power and "becomes" corrupt, was always a corrupt individual all along who was constrained only by the threat of punishment of some kind. An uncorrupt person who obtains power will still remain uncorrupted because their morals and values were not reliant on the threat of harm from others for not following them. — Philosophim

Interesting. Why do I doubt this. If the grass is indeed always greener, what else might hold true. Nurture vs. nature, basically, or something in between? People can't change? Ignorance and reclusivity (or perhaps luck) to never have the limits of one's resistance to temptation tested need not be mistaken for virtue, mind you.

Steven King's "The Langoliers". The philosophy just under the surface would fill a library.

If you have a good three hours (and perhaps something to drink) definitely worth a watch I'd say.

How would you assess accountability? — frank

Well seeing as I have no idea who the heck you are or where you're from but if I read you're in distress it's now known by (up to billions of) people for one... and you know, folks might want to investigate that. Or at the very least prepare themself for what danger or misfortune that allegedly is befalling you.

There was no news back then. The telegraph and the oceanic cables brought intercontinental communication which you must admit changed things considerably.

I'm saying there is no increase of crime itself simply increased awareness of it and to the average person sitting at home sounds alarming.

Oh it's not the crimes. It's the accountability and widely held ability any person wields to make them known in this day and age that's changed. Little more. Though it does discourage. Sometimes.

There's many kinds of power. Lack of discipline breeds lack of discipline. With enough resources and influence one can title that however one wishes.

Your thoughts are twisted as hell... — javi2541997

The man is a reflection of a depraved world, not a source of it. I don't believe, at least. One could argue to not be impacted by the various goings on of this world is what should call a man's sanity to question.

Still, I'm sure many wish they had real life friends with the adamant loyalty and fervent determination to see things through as the online friends of some. What a testament to the good of humanity this thread is, if nothing else.

Personally, I'm a nihilist, so I don't care what happens to it. — Leftist

This is the human condition in a nutshell. Can't even find purpose in the greatest gift, one's own autonomy, yet has plans for things they've yet to personally verify exists simply because "it's there".

For me, the forum is not just the internet. There is a community here. — T Clark

Is this supposed to support or disprove my claim? (if you had to make a choice)

Either choice promotes my point.

People just don't seem to be able to resist the opportunity to be petty and vindictive. — T Clark

Look at it this way. The average man (or woman) wakes up, sees his significant other. There are rules to follow. He or she goes to their job. There are rules to follow. You have to take a bathroom break, you guessed it, there are still rules to follow. You hang out with your friends/acquaintances after. Yup. Still rules to follow.

A man logs onto the Internet.. Suddenly. Freedom is found.

You know what would solve all this.

A new section (preferably one that includes an Arcade) that has a Guest shoutbox/rudimentary live chat... just to keep things interesting. When someone wants to learn something and improve their life, asking a master or expert is intimidating. You don't want to waste their time, seem like an idiot, yadda yadda, etcetera, etcetera, what have you. The improvement of one's self is the least of goals as far as philosophy is concerned, rather to empower one with wisdom and confidence behind said wisdom to improve the life of other's around oneself and thus society as a whole.

As philosophers we should take full advantage in every opportunity there is to do so.

I try to be a forgiving person because you never know when your situation can change and someone else will be at your former helm to dispense mercy or justice unto you.

That said, TPF is famous for it's "everlasting bans". I suspect the silence from moderation is just them giving us a place to complain.

What needs to be remembered is I don't believe any recent bans were not the result of the poster flat out saying "I don't care if you ban me" or to "go ahead", etc. Granted one would hope moderation are not looking for challenges like this from posters but that seems to be the facts in most all (recent) cases.

Also it's just a website. One I vastly enjoy and at least visit nearly every day. There's some interesting people with interesting things to say. I'd feel a bit lost without it, to be quite honest. But that's my fault. If getting banned from an online forum has such dire consequences, well... it is an investment, can become a very large, intimate and personal part of one's life and routine. It'd probably get me upset if another user somehow got me banned or it was the result of literally just arguing in the same manner another user does all the time. Hard to say.

There's one exception I would probably be vocal in advocating for...

Heat of battle passion, when there is an active and ongoing global military conflict and the person is a relevant stakeholder in one or more sides and is thus no longer operating (arguing) from a reasonable and logical mindset as is intended for this forum, but is instead operating from fight or flight adrenaline and emotion as their life and everything and everyone in it could be severely impacted or killed as a result of said conflict being discussed.

That's what this last one was about, wasn't it?

Oh.. :sad:

I for one will be enjoying a few drinks and perusing his past works.

I have a feeling they are likely to increase in value.

I still think this place would benefit greater from an Arcade or word game section (something intellectual, even a daily "guess the word or scenario" thing but it's the first time I've seen a new major structural addition here so :party:

Ours could use improvement. In civil court, restitution and punitive damages to the plaintiff are the standard forms of resolution — Vera Mont

Can it now? Money and damages can be revoked/returned by man upon introduction of knowledge forthcoming/a larger picture. Life cannot.

I met a man today who claimed to know everything everyone was thinking. — trogdor

We all have base desires. Fears. Etcetera. "Common sense" some tote. A normal person with a normal brain can perhaps indeed be described as "predictable" assuming the variables of one's environment or the scenario are known. Thing is, they seldom are as things are not always what they seem.

Maybe this man is in fact a scholar or champion of understanding the human condition. Many successful advertisers/marketers are. Maybe he's just some idiot who judges persons and things by first glance and just happened to have been lucky so far. What does it matter? By even pondering this, is this not the essence of free will?

there is no biological reason why women should wear dresses and bake cookies or men should be the bread-winner or protector — busycuttingcrap

This perhaps could be challenged by replacing should with are inclined to, no?

Stereotypes, perhaps. But averaging all peoples, men are generally of larger muscle mass and perhaps as a result tire less. Life, regardless of the plush comforts of society or in the context of a single person alone on an entire planet, requires physical work. Whether the result of our current biological inclinations can be changed/altered (enter the taboo topic of "genetic trauma" which can be redeemed as the adaptability and salvageability of the human condition) does this not hold true?

Since everything occurs in time — Hanover

Or does it? How could one have ascertained that which encompasses all being without theoretically placing oneself outside of it... is this not how "time" was discovered and differentiate from the falsehood or "current understanding" that must have existed prior to its discovery? People fail to ask themself these questions.

Perhaps it simply goes undercover in times of ignorance, thus preserving itself from those who seek only gain with little to contribute or show after the fact, to be later salvaged by those preserved by the very same...

I like every character here, so to speak. This is a good "mix". I would be entertained if you all were simply sitting around discussing how terrible I am as a person. Perhaps it's like my old English teacher would say "Kid's easily impressed". Perhaps he was right.

As stated, the content is also high quality and thought-provoking so that's great as well.

Hi, this is an ancient form of deceit it took several thousand years of war and science to ascertain. It is called "being wrong". Please use this knowledge sparingly.

Is it useful to view human behavior this way? — Mikie

It created this thread, didn't it?

I love these threads. It is argued that Godlike omniscience can be "replicated" by knowing the state and position of every atomic particle on Earth. So, that bridge that is weak will collapse approximately at 1800 hours because due to the observed affect of its integrity from X cars that are scheduled to pass and knowing there is a large truck that is scheduled to pass over it (due to their being no current obstructions in route) that event can - in theory - be pinpointed precisely to the microsecond. Or that due to full analysis of someone's state of mind and knowing of an interaction or situation that will lead them to be at the bridge with a sledgehammer, they will be in a state of anger and destroy the bridge with it... Something like that. The ultimate or holy grail of AI, perhaps. It may not enslave humanity, but someone using it surely could. It only exists in theoretical discussion of course... or so we're told. :D

From the title of this post alone, all discovery becomes mute, annulled, voided. Truly a stark testament of the times in which we live where despite everyday use of things by those who could not reproduce said things themselves on request shamelessly use to profane the very notion of possibility itself. It truly boggles the mind.

As someone who actually works with stories and writing, I can tell you, it's not easy. — Christoffer

Sorry, I meant from an abstract programming design point of view as to what constitutes "a story". I believe you.

You still cannot generate something that flows as a story with just a basic input/output mechanic as you described before. — Christoffer

I'm suggesting, again from a programming point of view (I am doing that as we speak) that one can easily program the very intricate subtleties of what makes a great story following a relatively multipurpose and reusable (hence simple) coding function. That is to say it is physically possible for someone with enough time and expertise to create such a function, albeit not like what we see here.

Creating a great story takes skill, however I do believe in the idea that many things can be simplified yes it does lose defining qualities but still keeps its "essence" or innate quality ie. accuracy. What is a plot? Something happening. Some things are unlikely or simply cannot happen depending on the constants of the query ie. a story about a fish cannot take place in a bank but can underwater. Your request "write a story about why X doubts Y can be Z" for example.

X = Me
Y = robots
Z = must be (V)
V = only inputs and outputs (not equal, less than something)

Known (conflict): X believes Y is (Z)
Action (intro): Create reason why X believes Z about Y

Plot Options (resolution): X changes state (doubt to belief)/Y changes state (perceived to be/not be V)

Known: Y is a robot that is/is not Z.
Action (resolution): X meets a robot that is in fact Z.

Plot Options (filler): X (gradually, of course) changes state (doubt to belief)

Ending: Lesson learned, conflicts resolved.

I believe you wholeheartedly as to the complexities of the art of storytelling. Just, as I've been accused of on more than one occasion, sometimes, you really can just throw in witty things other people have said where it seems to fit and get a standing ovation. I have much respect for stories and their tellers. This could not be farther from anything other than a general observation applied under the context of programming philosophy. However yes I did hear a quote once that stuck with me. "Movies are designed for two audiences: male and female. Male-oriented movies the viewer is "chasing" something (Indiana Jones and the treasure, Borne Identity and the antihero). Female-oriented movies the viewer is "protecting" something (Titanic and the relationship, The Notebook and "eternal love", etc). We all have base emotions/fears/goals that don't take a lifetime of studying the human condition to know how to target.

I generally get the sense that you play the "unimpressed" person for some reason, like if the engineers who worked on this didn't achieve something monumental as a milestone for AI. — Christoffer

I think it's important to keep perspective. Perhaps it's only natural for man to belittle that which he fears or doesn't understand. I much enjoyed conversing with you, hope to again soon.

While I get your argument on how it structures its inputs, I don't see how this type of story output is merely the result of basic commands. This type of text requires more than just putting definitions together in a pre-defined structure. — Christoffer

Stories are generally easy. This does seem to very accurately establish the "premise" and integrate it completely as opposed to just wrapping a cliche tale around a vague "inputs and outputs" theme that barely has any relevance except by chance. Or basically replacing Jack with (your name here) and throwing in a random place, set of characters, plot from a predefined list.

Every story has a plot. That is something being discovered or something being resolved. Most all stories will fall into one of the two categories so it becomes a matter of defining what the subject is with as much details and relevant plot scenarios to go along with as possible.

Tell it I know what it did last summer.

Really that is impressive, but like I said earlier it's just commands. This particular response seems to involve "hardcoded" specifics specifically created to respond to its own integrity. I'm sure the developers even refer to it and related mechanisms as its "identity" in more than one internal references.

As a developer, here's what I see:

• $paragraph1 (establish/identify premise/main argument and subjects)
• $paragraph2 (define terms, correlate similarities between subjects)
• $paragraph3 (reaffirm similarities, attempt to bridge differences, correlations, validate main argument)
• $paragraph4 (confirm facts both supportive and opposing of both arguments ie. summarize)

Like I said, fancy. No argument there.

So the question is, what would a world look like where software could be as easily written as this forum post? — Christoffer

It is. I suppose you mean broken down, universalized, and simplified to the point of basic sentence structure. Words are words. Just a few can rival or "defeat" an argument that takes up a library full. This is not the same of commands, which is what code is. If it does anything useful or complex, it will be lengthy and equally complex. Is this not simply swapping out nomenclature for much of the same only simpler?

Furthermore, as-is ChatGPT seems little more than a fancy dictionary that pulls up a list of related terms or concepts than bridges them together with language relevant to the structure of the original query. We already had AskJeeves in 1996. Looks like Jeeves finally got his GED. 30 years later. :yawn: