They can't create them for real — Ludwig V

But we are talking about simulations. It doesn't have to be real.

Car crashes are a great example of this, a far more cost effective method of testing automobile designs than crashing actual cars. — noAxioms

I'm not sure I fully understand. Forgive me, but are these simulations not the ones where they put crash test dummies in a model of car and ram it into a brick wall? How is that not crashing actual cars?

Or do you mean studying thr aftermath of incidental crashes on the road? Not sure how often this actually happens as there would be a lot of legal red tape with ongoing investigations into real victims.

Perhaps I am wrong about determinism tho. I always figured if variables were fully predetermined then the outcome would be invariably predetermined and fully predictable.

Like 1 + 1 = 2.

I figured that nothing is fully predetermined in real life experiment because there is almost certainly extraneous variables interacting to make the outcome for example 1+1 + X variable + Y variable + Nth variable = 2?

Minds/consciousness can't come from matter, therefore simulation theory is false. — RogueAI

How do you prove that? It seems at the very least, matter is the carrier medium of consciousness. A necessity. If not the source.

But being that the simulation is a program, it should be deterministic, and therefore consistent; — Lionino

Who says? If a simulation is wholly deterministic, there is no added value to run it in the first place. For all variables throughout the simulations play are already known by the creators.

Perhaps an ultra advanced simulator can harness randomness and chaos to generate a simulation that is generated "live" in time based on randomness and subsequent unpredictable evolution.

If you think about it, not only is such a simulation far more insightful for the creators, but it requires less control and therefore less programming. All that need be made is the initial function and then the system evolves in it's own way thereafter.

Like a mandelbrot set. The initial function can continue infinitely creating various fractals whose emerging chaos and variables would be much harder to simulate entirely as one determined instantaneous entity.

Another argument against the simulation hypothesis might be this:

A simulation is a representation, and a representation is selective and asymmetric relative to what it is a representation of. — jkop

How does this prove we aren't a simulation though? All it asserts is that should our existence indeed be simulated, it is imperfect when compared to the "original" or "real world/source of simulation".

That doesn't prove we are not in a simulation. At most it suggests that there is a fundamental unknowability of the authentic world that we as simulations could never grasp fully.

Therefore, everything cannot be a simulation. — jkop

True. But 99.99999999% of things can be simulated with one singularity type entity running the show. If we take "everything" as the set for which one phenomenon is "real" (ie the simulator) then the odds are very much against most things we know being actually "real".

Perhaps there is some universally conscious god like entity and we are all merely a fever dream in its mind or "programme". There's really no way of knowing. Everything "objective", all scientific "proofs" would be merely be one minds "subjective" decisions in this case.

Finally, in an even more wild hypothesis, perhaps such a highly advanced simulator would be non local. Simulating different parts of itself from different temporospatial points. In this sense nothing is "not simulated" it would just mean the simulation is relative at any given point to some other simulating component elsewhere. Mind fuck I know.

Maybe quantum phenomena simulate us and we similarly simulate them in some strange mutually recursive iteration, and to avoid a cancellation or violating opposition of entangled simulators, when we observe quantum events they automatically collapse into a singularity thing to maintain our ability to "observe them" (simulate their existence).

Ofc I'm on some fantasy rant here. But I enjoy dabbling in wild metaphysical speculation

If this world is simulated, the "real" world must be very like this one - as in the "Matrix". — Ludwig V

Why so? Surely the programmers can create whatever physics, chemistry and phenomena they like.
Perhaps the passage of time is exclusive to this simulation and that the higher dimensional beings that created it exist at all times simultaneously.

Perhaps our simulated physics is created for the very reason that they may wish to study how a universe would unfold under different properties and circumstances to their own.

What reason would an advanced simulating civilisation have for recreating an exact carbon copy of their own universe? Very few reasons other than maybe prediction? Which is unlikely if they're already far more advanced and evolved than us.

Maybe it is to witness first hand how their own universe played out. To gain an insight into history -the programme we are running right now. Maybe AIs great great great grand reiteration wishes to witness the birth of itself.

However, given these two reasons to simulate an identical universe, there are infinitely more reasons to simulate a non identical one.

why don't its 'designers' simply 'pop out' at times and leave us with some trace of their existence? Guidance through such a virtual world might be helpful, and yet there is no trace of anyone 'programming' or 'guiding' us anywhere. — jasonm

Perhaps it's a game. Maybe the hints are all around us; in philosophy, perhaps in various scriptures spanning many cultures and times, Easter eggs hidden all over the 'map'. We at least know whatever type of "nature" we live in it seems to enjoy competition.

Similarly, why don't we sometimes notice violations of the laws of physics? — jasonm

We see inconsistencies at the frontier of science and discovery all the time. "Paradox" exists as a concept with dozens if not hundreds of examples spanning linguistics, physical principles such as time . The Hubble constant appears to be constantly contested due to vast discrepancies in several independent attempted measurements. Gravity has not been resolves with the standard model. Glitches? Perhaps?

Third: what type of computing power would be required to 'house' this virtual universe? Are we talking about computers that are bigger than the universe itself? Is this possible even in principle? — jasonm

All that is required is to generate one's immediate surroundings. The entire universe does not have to be simulated to the same degree of resolution. Also resolution is relative, perhaps for a highly advanced super computer, what we experience requires very low CPU - a highly pixelated version of what could be generated. How would we know any better? How could we ever imagine a world woth higher definition than that humans are currently capable of perceiving.

Perhaps many players are philosophical zombies - only simulations of people. NPCs.
Maybe you Jason, are the only real players in the simulation. Then again, perhaps you are designed only to believe you are.

Fir the record I don't actually believe we live in a simulation. I just enjoy playing the devil's (simulations) advocate. It's not as easy to discredit as one might think.

My daughter's generation (she is 27) were very much given a discussion/debate/discourse model of education. But as I hinted above, different countries do different things.

What we probably need to do is cite specific educational approaches as implemented and then subject them to some evidence based scrutiny rather than just present untheorized opinions on 'education'. — Tom Storm

Well I'm also 27 and from the proverbial "west". And my education in school was heavily based on fact and rote learning. With the exception of English - in which we had to develop opinions and comprehensive analysis of a literary work by our own accord.

The opinion may indeed be "untheorized" on a global scale. I can concede to that of course. But in my nation as with my neighbouring one, the concensus is that rote learning is alive and well in many "big players" of the west. And this I based on personal experience having undergone that education system along with many friends from other not too dissimilar western countries.

I am however delighted to hear your daughter benefited from a more nuanced and discursive method of education. I would have loved this format had I had the opportunity myself.

Rather than making me MORE susceptible to Nazi, racist, imperialist, settler colonial thinking, reading about the appalling behavior has strengthened bias (antibodies) against these ideas. — BC

Well you answered your own qualm. My OP on the virality of thoughts is not explicitly about being indoctrinated by them. As you said we have a "mental immune response" so to speak and can actively reject the idea we come across. Or accept them.

I was focusing more on the point that any idea we come across must invariably be processed and dealt with in the sense that "one cannot unsee what they have just seen".

The concern here is between passive attention and active conscious decision making. I am suggesting that if we are unaware that viral ideas may affect us, if we do not maintain alertness to them, it is possible we will unintentionally assimilate the idea and allow it to warp our views. Thus there is am importance to maintaining a certain level of active critical approach.

Is anyone on earth an expert on global education? Who would even know 1% of what takes place in the realm of education on the planet? — Tom Storm

I think the point here was not having a global education oneself. One does not need to know the intricate details of every item on every syllabus across the globe to establish a general comparative study of international education systems. This is somewhat a strawman commentary on a point I never actually made.

Your argument is analagous to saying a "linguist" ought to be fluent in every human language. When in fact they usually study the different frameworks for language and their grammar, and how they compare to one another.

Lots of propaganda masquerades as "critical thinking" where the sole purpose of the "thinking" is to cast suspicion or doubt on the facts, e.g. to undermine the possibility to criticize false or nonsensical claims etc. — jkop

I agree. For if we can assume nothing (ie have no trusted facts) and apply "critical thinking" to every shred of knowledge we are offered, we must go back to first principles again and again in an exhaustive and inefficient cycle.

In an ideal world, facts stand as the ever continuing basis for fresh education upon which we can grow, develop or build a greater level of knowledge.

Unfortunately not all facts remain accepted as such. And some facts are likely erroneous to begin with. Science is in a forever fluctuating paradigm shift.

So without the 100% certainty of fact, one must at least lend some credence to the ability to think rationally. To apply logic. Which is another set of skills beyond mere fact absorption and assimilation.

One would imagine a refined reasoning ought to lead to the same "facts" if such facts are indeed true.

I agree. I think context is almost everything in education. For a true knowledge of any subject the who, what, why, when, where and how's of said subject must be addressed to fully contextualise the education.

Sadly I think arbitrary fact recycling and disconnected informational points are the method of choice for too many educators. That's why I suggested philosophy as a doorway to allowing students to develop their own frameworks, apply them, familiarise themselves with criticism and rebuttal, allow them to defend ideas or acceot new ones and overall to develop a sense of discursive enlightenment, not mere fact learning.

Context is the existence we live in. Association is the way we position individual facts within that context and form practical or insightful relationships between information.

So perhaps philosophy is a prophylaxis against propaganda; it's just that we will never be able to agree on what "philosophy" should mean. — Leontiskos

Perhaps that us the crux if the issue itself.

Am I right in thinking of you, Ben, as an Englishman? — Banno

You would be incorrect.

Here's some data that might be reassuring. More folk are better educated than ever before.

Critical thinking is more of a middle-class concern, perhaps, on the global scale. — Banno

Surely critical thinking is best exemplified by those at the elite end of the system for one reason or another. Otherwise how do they trump the rest of us in the power-finance struggle?

Moreover, you say more folk are better educated than ever before. Where does the dunning-kreuger effect play into this? Absorbing misinformation and calling it education does not an educated person make. Flat earthers were a non-issue in the previous century. So it's clear something within the endeavour to become better thinkers has gone awry. And that invariably comes down to the quality of education and the reliability of sources.

. People are not stupid, but depth takes sustained effort, which is difficult for many people. Killing saber toothed tigers, domesticating wolves, figuring out how to get agriculture started, milking cows, mining coal, greeting every "guest" who walks into a Walmart... it all keeps us busy. No time for Plato and Aristotle. — BC

Well... "distraction" has maintained a stable status as an effective way to disarm people. Especially if you have an underlying dogma or agenda you wish to incept slowly and gradually into the target audience.

What I'm saying is that the spread of thoughts can be viral in that they need not gain acceptance, merely seed the kernel of doubt. After that the skepticism can build and warp or mould minds who are especially vulnerable....ie the "impressionable"..

I would argue that few people on this forum are impressionable or easily persuaded. But this is not a fair cross section of society as a whole. Not everyone seeks out philosophical discussion nor hones their critical thinking abilities.

That in itself lends importance to fostering philosophy as a basic educational tenet. I for one cannot understand how so many education systems overlook this subject. As education is not just facts, it is also a form of resilience to malicious yet effective propaganda

↪Benj96 If it's that simple, that hearing a phrase infects my brain with a meme or idea, then I can stop this discussion in its tracks by saying, "Don't think that viral ideas are bullshit."

Still think that ideas are viral? — BC

You missed the point. The point being made does not regard what you do with the ideas or memes you're exposed to. Simply that the idea or meme is often not ignorable and thus requires automatically to be accepted or rejected. In your case "rejected" through the reactionary development of a counter-argument or rebuttal. In any case that reaction requires that your mind invariable acknowledges or absorbs the ideas and thoughts presented to you. Otherwise how can you reject them?

The issue here is not that you can't reject what you hear or see. It's that you see and hear so much that you cannot maintain awareness of every micro-indoctrination you receive. Some are simply subconsciously integrated under the radar of your conscious attention but are no less effectual on your sum outlook/perspective.

If an idea is repeatedly and subtley presented for a long period of time, its unlikely it won't effect your reality framework eventually.

This is a basis for the development of prejudices, cultures etc. The passive absorption of some thoughts and ideas you weren't actively analysing upon receiving them.

I just noticed this. What means would you use to bring this about? — fishfry

Constructive or healthy modes of competition. We cannot eliminate our desire to win or outcompete one another. We like reward, acknowledgement and status. All we can do is steer the compulsion away from competition that worsens the the wellbeing or basic rights of the losing group.

There is always a problem about excessive competition. There are usually systems in place to control it and they are at least reasonably successful. — Ludwig V

Who makes these systems? Is power and authority not a trait of the "winning faction" of any competitive environment?

Make everyone an impoverished slave and feed them all the same bowl of gruel everyday.

That's the problem with "equality." — fishfry

I agree. Competition is healthy. People love a game with a lucrative reward at the end for the winner. If we didn't, games would not be such a huge source of entertainment for us for millenia.

Furthermore competition is a natural phenomenon within and between species, and the basis for natural selection and evolution.

That being said, competition can be upheld without detriment to the quality of life of the loser. We are an animal with a sophisticated ability to not only communicate but also to imagine. And it is through these that we generate healthy competition - think the Olympics, video games, arcades, art and literature competitions etc. All ultimately arbitrary forms of reward and loss that don't directly threaten our survival.

We must subvert our tendency to compete so that we do not do so in a directly oppressive manner to society and human rights. Entertainment is the opium of the masses.

Without it, we would become toxically bored and engage in competing directing with and oppressing one another for our entertainment needs. To feel superior. A healthy society can have universal healthcare and universal income so long as we are happy consuming healthy competitions so we don't create unhealthy ones out of a desperate need for purpose and flexing our competitive prowess.

Should it come down to people who have a lot, having most of their lot taken away to support those that don’t? You know, the greatest good for the greatest number. — Rob J Kennedy

I fear taking away the wealthies money is equivalent taking away their ambition. If they're super talented and hyperintelligent yet never benefit from applying those gifts, they may resign themselves to letting lesser able people to flounder without their assistance.

On the other hand, because money and assets are material, for one to have much, another has to have little. That is a problem indeed.

In an ideal world, everyone is equally talented in diverse and complimentary ways, everyone has equal opportunity to demonstrate said personal talents/gifts, everyone has the resources they need to do so, and everyone is equally supportive and encouraging of one another rather than ruthlessly competitive.

Sadly that simply isn't the case. Some people cannot access their innate talents through education and opportunity, some are unambitious/lazy, some are easily dissuaded/highly doubtful and others are psychopathic - lacking all compassion and willing to destroy if they cannot be on top.

Society's goods (material and cultural) are not fairly and evenly distributed -- and they never have been. — BC

That's because they're material. Materials can be hoarded. Ideas and personal natures cannot.

It seems what you're saying is merit-based privilege is acceptable (the wealthy hardworking surgeon that saves countless lives), innate privilege is not (a lottery winner that "showered with cash" blows it all on drugs, sex and gambling for example).

The issue with a purely merit based privilege - is that the most unremarkable people - the lazy, the unambitious, the highly social welfare dependent or even the societally deviant - criminals could be argued as not even deserving the innate privilege of life itself. And that is rather eugenic or a "culling of the weakest links".

However in doing so we created an infinite regress of the "worst person" . And that is not sustainable because taken to its extreme it leaves only one highly meritable "perfect" example of humanity. The irony there is that I would expect such a person to not wish this system to be the case. They would obviously be generous charitable people.

Compassion for those we don't identify with but no less value - is the way forward I think.

Would you be willing to accept a set of principles that increases the prospects of others, even if it means having fewer opportunities yourself? — Rob J Kennedy

It depends whether I am already at an advantage or not. As I would say is the thought of many facing the question.

I have self esteem. I don't want to be further trodden down and walked over. Similarly I'm very uncomfortable with the idea of being born with a silver spoon in my mouth that I didn't earn, especially when it means more disadvantage for it others.

If I'm perfectly in the middle, my opinion doesn't matter either way.

Moreover it is interesting that there are people that don't mind not knowing the meaning of life, some that constantly crave knowing and those that believe they already do with such determination they're willing to die to uphold their belief.

I do wonder what it is that divides them, fundamentally.

Very true. A thought that is so horrifying or harmful it makes the holder commit suicide instantly wouldn't be able to spread very successfully. Think Bird box - except the agent isn't witnessed but rather whispered from one person to another

In this case how would you say they evolve to survive?

I would propose that they evolve to either:
A). Empower the holder of the thought (ie education or knowledge
B). Personalise themselves to the holder of the thought - ie make themselves a part of your identity or become highly relatable.
C). Play on emotions - if they have an ability to polarise your emotions ie make you fear, worry or feel threatened or on the contrary alleviate stress / make you feel happy and at peace or feel love etc they will stay in your conscious attention.

This list is not exhaustive but I would say simply put, whatever makes a thought of ever greater value or importance to a person is unlikely to be forgotten and more likely to influence one's behaviour: ie be spoken to others. Or demonstrated.

It seems to me social media algorithms are tailored to these principles of highly personalised, highly relatable and outrage or community invoking sentiments.

That "flavour of characteristics" is what I call ambiguity. Your use of this word conflicts with the idea you expressed above, about using well defined words with less baggage. — Metaphysician Undercover

Your whole argument for less ambiguity is based on an impractical desire for words to be absolutely concrete and defined.

That's simply not how human languages work. This isn't binary code nor mathematics. Poetry isn't based on exacting definitions.

More so, no one uses the same words in the same personal context. They have nuanced differences in meaning for literally everyone. So my suggestion would be to accept that language is and always has been inherently flexible in meaning and definitions and instead just try to understand how another person uses the words rather than complaining about ambiguity.

We cannot ignore that some words are inherently more ambiguous than others and many of those ill defined terms reside in metaphysics.

Ambiguity is the product of 2 different people using a common language.

I can even reduce all this wordy response above to a simple, well defined rebuttal: Ambiguity exists. Get over it.

Btw, it is strawman, not strawperson. — Lionino

Did you just assume that straw persons gender??

This highlights the absurdity that can result from misrepresenting arguments and how it can lead to a situation where the original discussion is lost entirely. — Echogem222

Welcome to global politics.

information" in this case, so that the unintelligible is adequately hidden within what is proposed as intelligible, and it will appear like you are saying something intelligent. — Metaphysician Undercover

I'm not convinced this is the case for people that use seemingly ambiguous words. There is nuance and often careful selection in the language used to express an idea. And many time the popular terms are so heavily loaded with assumptions that people prefer to use newer or more alternative ones to approach the topic with less baggage.

For example: I often avoid the word God and use "entity" or "being" with X, Y or Z characteristics if im approaching a theological or cosmological discussion. So I don't end up in a death spiral debate about "fairy sky daddy" or "walking on water" or get instantly labelled as a theologist or an atheist due to my choice of language.

I use the term "information" myself because I think it is useful and has its own flavour of characteristics outside of just energy transfer or material arrangements.

Perhaps it's better to ask someone to clarify how they use a seemingly ambiguous term- because the ambiguity rarely comes from the user of the word. They usually know exactly how they're using it. Therefore ambiguity is more based on the interpreter which may not be sure what thr details of their definition are.

of course. I know this is not a knew thought in academic philosophy. However I think when "all limits are gone", all arguments fall so so short of what such a proposition would actually mean for us. Imagination is afterall, infinite in scope.

Yes, I think it's an idea worth entertaining that this universe we find ourselves in is a bubble, in a sea of other unique non interacting bubbles. — flannel jesus

It's very meta to be able to even imagine that.
Because in an existence where everything is possible - there would be universesor bubbles that never consider the multiverse theory in the first place. Those that do but don't have any interaction with other multiverses, and yet more that somehow find a way to interact with them or even transmigrate between them (like the film everything everywhere all at once).

To imagine an existence with pure potential for absolutely any form or variation, any possibility, is one where imagination is essentially someones, somewheres "reality". Ie anything you can imagine already exists in some alternate reality.

That lends itself to an interesting approach to imagination and fiction. Perhaps instead of being pure imagination and fiction, it is instead the ability of creatives and artists in our local universe to somehow perceive the realities of other universes. Every dream in this case would be a sort of out of body experience of another world. An impart of information about one of the other bubbles.

Perhaps each of us has a unique imagination- or access to any given number of multiverses

the different possibilities don't necessarily have to interact with each other, do they? — flannel jesus

Precisely what I'm saying. Really nice to get this concordance from another philosopher.

Perhaps they are - by virtue of being contradictory -isolated from one another, not influenced in any capacity by what is happening in the other reference frame.

That itself is a seismic thought because it means that we could be existing in a reality completely separate from 99.99999% of all possible realities. A bubble in its own path of "existence". Luckily for us it is one of ...well...who knows how many... where the opportunity to discuss this, to be aware, exists.

I really enjoy reading your posts. They're very broad and you've taken the time to ruminate over several possibilities that we - as interlocutors - have proposed. And further to combine them into a sort of affront - here is how you guys see it and here is how each of your views differs.

Just wanted to take this time to commend you style of contribution to the discussion. Its very refreshing and takes great skill, but most importantly its engaging.

Well, given that THIS universe is possible, then there must be at least some part of THAT universe which looks exactly like this one.

So... at least for a brief moment... such a universe would look like this. — flannel jesus

I agree. If everything must be possible. Then existence must include the current reality we experience.

Interestingly though, it must also include the possibilities of the physics and chemistry as we understand them, to remain constant for the duration of the universe, as well as the case where they do not.

Because both are seemingly contradictory, it lends itself to the multiverse theory.

The question then is, with separate alternate timelines of possibilities, what does it mean for such multiverses to "play out/occur" "simultaneously?"

Especially when for example, in an existence woth every possibility, time ought to run at all possible rates relative to one another. Ie multiverses that occur at the pace of a slug and ones that are over and done with in the blink of an eye. Maybe even universe states where nothing happens at all because time in this case doesn't run at all.

I think the inference I'm driving at is that to bite this bullet would be to say something impossible is also possible — AmadeusD

You haven't factored in the important influence of time. Is the passage of time, ie the "change" that occurs in the system not what divides "the possible" from "the impossible"?

Simple example: 500 years ago, were iPhones possible?

I agree that contradictions ought not occur "simultaneously" (that's the crux) ie that iphones could both exist and not exist in 2024 (the same time period).

In a similar way a manifest universe can never not be "said universe." But, because the possibility of a non-existant universe is fundamentally out of reach for those that already do exist, that isn't to say a state of non existence isn't achievable by the system. It would just mean that we could never use any existent proofs to prove the non existent state.

Just as we can't use imagination to imagine the unimaginable. Because it's circular. The outcome is contingent on the premise. Or as you said incoherent.

But I don't think incoherence is sufficient enough to determine what's possible when you take the system as a holistic whole.

It's like the proverb "if a tree falls in a forest and no one is there to hear it, does it make a sound?" No, it makes a vibration/air pressure wave, because "sound" is intractably linked to "an ear" (an observer/witness). Ie. The outcome (sound) is contingent on the premise (an observer).

In the same way, if a universe doesn't exist and no one is there to witness this, can it truly not exist? Again, I'm sure it can, but we as existent beings are outside of that particular set in the Venn diagram of possibilities.

Just because existent things cannot measure non existent states, doesn't mean they do not occur. Possibility must extend beyond our bias towards that which can be recorded/documented.

Enter Greek Mythology cause this is how many of them thought? Time is a Circle that repeats all things have happened all things will happen — DifferentiatingEgg

Yes indeed. It seems that there are a few options for the "everything possible universe" to exist.

Either A). The same universe continues to such a long duration that all things can occur within it eventually.
B) The same universe repeats as a cycle but each time fulfills a different possible path from beginning to end.
C). Multiple universes occur simultaneously branching from ever possible point of change

It seems to me that a universe where everything is possible entails a world with multiple, causally isolated sub-universes. So there wouldn't be a beginning nor end to this universe as a whole, nor would there be a "conclusion" to it. Every possibility is actuallized in one or more sub-universes. — Relativist

It would be possible in the "everything possible universe" that multiverses exist - perhaps as you said in order to achieve most of the possibilities without overt contradictions. After all, if everything is possible, then multiple universes must exist.

Of course one possibility is that no multiverses or alternate universes exist and this possibility must also be achieved. How this contradiction exists so that both opposing states can be manifest is Perhaps along some schrodinger cat type superposition.

Perhaps like overlapping superpositions of possible states which gradually collapse into optimally configured forms? Oh wait, that's this universe.... — Pantagruel

I anticipated this comment. It is possible that we could exist in such a universe playing out every single possibility and "collapsing" from 'all possibilities' towards the final possibility (which may be the most defined or strict state).

Is the Universe not existing a possibility, in this universe? ;) — AmadeusD

I would say yes. As one state (perhaps the first state) in all possible configurations would be just the potential to 'be' rather than actually being (existing). Once such a state is achieved, all other possible states involve some form of existence.

If everything is possible, then one possibility is such - a lack of being manifest.