Comments

  • “Referendum democracy” and the Condorcet theorem
    Probably there is no big difference, but I am not sure these two systems will always produce the same results. For me, the system I described is evidently optimal.Linkey

    Millions of people in dozens of jurisdictions disagree with you.
  • “Referendum democracy” and the Condorcet theorem
    This is a good idea, but maybe I don't fully understand the principle from your quote.Linkey

    The quote describes it simply and clearly and it's easy to understand. You should read it again.

    It is quite unclear how to solve this problem;Linkey

    For me, the best system can be as follows: if we have e.g. 3 candidates, each voter ranks each candidate with 1-3 numbers, and rank 1 means 10, 2 means 5, 3 means 0.Linkey

    Why would we possibly bring in a new system when there is an existing one, ranked choice voting, that has been in use for a long time and works well?
  • “Referendum democracy” and the Condorcet theorem
    A am sure that the best political system would be a “referendum democracy”: if an online referendum will be performed at least each week, and these referendums should cover not only laws, but also decisions within the competence of the judiciary power (fines and punishments).Linkey

    This would be a monstrous, horrible, monumental disaster.

    Theoretically, this problem can be solved as follows: the voter does not just vote for one of the candidates, but gives each candidate a score on a ten-point scale.Linkey

    There is already a better system than this in place in a number of jurisdictions. It’s called ranked choice voting. This from the web - https://campaignlegal.org/democracyu/accountability/ranked-choice-voting

    Ranked choice voting is a process that allows voters to rank candidates for a particular office in order of preference. Consider a race where four candidates – A, B, C, and D – are running for a single seat such as Governor. In an election utilizing RCV, voters simply rank the candidates 1-4, with the candidate ranked as “1” being the voter’s highest preference for Governor. If a candidate is the first choice of more than half the voters, that candidate wins the election. But if no candidate gets the majority of the vote, the candidate with the least amount of support is eliminated, the second choice support for that eliminated candidate are redistributed, and this process continues until a candidate wins more than half of the vote.
  • The Empty Suitcase: Physicalism vs Methodological Naturalism
    Published in 1924, Burtt's work explores how the shift to a scientific worldview in the 17th century was underpinned by (often unstated) metaphysical assumptions.

    I find the metaphysics of science interesting, so I bought it. I’ve only just started reading, but it looks pretty good so far. I especially like that he has been very specific about what’s included in the metaphysics of modern pre-quantum physics as well as medieval and ancient science.
  • The Empty Suitcase: Physicalism vs Methodological Naturalism
    But I don't understand how anything Anderson says refutes a potentially physicalist understanding of the world. He refutes reductionism very well, but my attempt to invent a "best we can do now" version of physicalism was not meant to affirm reductionism, quite the contrary.J

    I think the only way the kind of physicalism you described can be tenable is if we buy into reductionism. I can easily identify phenomena that are obviously not physical, e.g. the mind, society. The only way those can be reasonably considered physical is if you could support the claim that they are reducible to physics.
  • Currently Reading

    I read the first issue online. I don’t think I’ll read anymore. Thanks for the quick summary. A little too creepy for me.
  • Currently Reading

    So they don’t live happily ever after?
  • Can we always trust logical reasoning?
    There is a conceptual understanding of "me" operating in the world. But the direct, first person realisation of being conscious precedes any other knowing, and is "absolute" in the sense that I don't need anything else for that.Carlo Roosen

    This is an argument we have here all the time - the hard problem of consciousness. As I see it, there is no hard problem of consciousness.
  • Can we always trust logical reasoning?
    I was wondering, even while I do agree with the premises to some extend and it seems logically correct, I do not agree with the answer.Carlo Roosen

    Here's my take. Neither of the premises is true. Neither is false. Whether reality is deterministic or we have free will can not be verified or falsified empirically.
  • The Empty Suitcase: Physicalism vs Methodological Naturalism
    The author's argument against scientism doesn't claim to show science is irrational, but rather that it's core principle (that the scientific method is the only way to render truth about the world and reality) cannot be established with the scientific method - which he asserts makes it self-defeating.Relativist

    He said more than that. He said science can not be shown to be a rational method of inquiry. My post was an attempt to refute that. We don't have to take this any further. I just thought his argument was sloppy and wanted to express my disagreement.
  • The Empty Suitcase: Physicalism vs Methodological Naturalism
    Indeed, that science is even a rational form of inquiry (let alone the only rational form of inquiry) is not something that can be established scientifically. For scientific inquiry itself rests on a number of philosophical assumptions: that there is an objective world external to the minds of scientists; that this world is governed by causal regularities; that the human intellect can uncover and accurately describe these regularities; and so forth. Since science presupposes these things, it cannot attempt to justify them without arguing in a circle. And if it cannot even establish that it is a reliable form of inquiry, it can hardly establish that it is the only reliable form.Relativist

    I don't think this argument holds water. Or maybe it's nihilistic. To start, I don't think science is the only valid way of understanding the world. Is it valid? Yes, I think so. Is it rational? Yes, I think it is. What standard would we apply to determine rationality? Here's a first shot.

    • It's a formal system of study with established and documented methodology.
    • The assumptions and presuppositions underlying that methodology are understood and acknowledged.
    • The results are documented.
    • Procedures for data reporting, reduction, verification, and interpretation are included in the system methodology.
    • The results can be compared with observations in the real world and predictions made before the study takes place.

    As I indicated, that's just off the top of my head. Looking at this now, it strikes me this is really just a description of the scientific method. The position described in the quoted text is just Hume's problem of induction. It's always seemed obvious to me that the perfect refutation of that position is that induction works. Beyond that, it strikes me that if the scientific method is not rational, then there is no rational way of knowing the world.
  • The Empty Suitcase: Physicalism vs Methodological Naturalism
    I have a number of friends who would, if pressed, probably deny that there's anything out there except the physical world. But nor would they claim that you can use the fundamental entities of physics to explain macro-phenomena like economic behavior.J

    I think there are a lot of people out there, probably mostly physical scientists, who do think psychology, sociology, and economics are nothing but physics.

    Not necessarily. We can construct a sort of "best we can do right now" position that would go: "Sure, we have loads of unanswered questions about how physical realities interact, and how they can be causally effective. But at the end of the (scientific) day, I'm betting that the answers will still fail to reveal anything beyond the physical. We have to wait and see, but my money is on physicalism."J

    As I see it, this is not a "best we can do right now" issue. It's not a question of inadequate theory and technology, it's that it is not possible. Here's a link to one of my favorite papers - Anderson's "More is Different." Written in 1972, but it always gets brought up when this subject is discussed.

    https://www.tkm.kit.edu/downloads/TKM1_2011_more_is_different_PWA.pdf
  • The Empty Suitcase: Physicalism vs Methodological Naturalism
    there are good arguments for the involvement of us humans in the establishment of reality,
    — T Clark

    Such as?
    Wayfarer

    I first came to this realization through the Tao Te Ching. "The Tao that can be spoken is not the eternal Tao." It has become a central part of my understanding of how the world works - reality is not objective, it is a mixture of an external non-human existence interacting with our human nature. Kant described something similar when he talked about aspects of reality, i.e. space and time, that we know a priori. Recently I've been reading Konrad Lorenz who connects Kant's a priori with evolution. He says that we have evolved to survive through an interaction between objective reality and our biological nature. In his understanding, human nature is a reflection of objective reality. I don't see it that way, but I think his understanding of the mechanism is correct. Here's a link to an article of his.

    https://archive.org/details/KantsDoctrineOfTheAPrioriInTheLightOfContemporaryBiologyKonradLorenz

    I have some other ideas about this too, but I haven't got them put together enough to go into them here.
  • The Empty Suitcase: Physicalism vs Methodological Naturalism
    an Aeon essay by Evan Thompson, Adam Frank and Marcello GleiserWayfarer

    I don't remember participating in the discussion five years ago. This time I read the essay you linked. I was disappointed to see it was the same argument you and I go back and forth with every month or so. First off, any philosophical discussion that brings in quantum mechanics is immediately suspect. They trotted out the old QM interpretation that reality is dependent on observation while ignoring the fact that those interpretations are unfalsifiable. Their other prime example was the hard problem of consciousness.

    My biggest gripe is that there are good arguments for the involvement of us humans in the establishment of reality, but they ignored them.
  • The Empty Suitcase: Physicalism vs Methodological Naturalism
    the real challenge for physicalism is to explain the lawlike behaviors, if there are such, of the entities studied in psychology, sociology, history, literature – in short, the human sciences.J

    That's why I mentioned reductionism. For many in the physical sciences, the disciplines you listed can ultimately be reduced to physics. That's not how I see it.

    And if you responded by telling her that her discipline did not produce objective facts and theories, was in short not scientific, she would laugh at you,J

    It's not clear to me that, when we get to that level of organization, we are still dealing with phenomena that are deterministic and comprehensively and ultimately law-given and law-abiding.

    So in order to defend physicalism, I think a philosopher has to argue for why physicalism is not reductive in the sense just described.J

    I would guess that most people who agree with the physicalist approach also agree that a reductionist approach is also correct. I think the argument could be made that they are the same thing.

    [edit] in last paragraph changed “is not also correct” “to is also correct.”
  • The Empty Suitcase: Physicalism vs Methodological Naturalism
    But I think that can be problematised by pointing out that while physicalism does provide a background context that is inviting towards scientific inquiry, none of the successes of science required physicalism– the scientific method and its accompanying tools being enough to do the job.Baden

    Method will get you only so far. Once we've collected it we have to process it, validate it, interpret it, and fit it into existing or new theories. Does methodological naturalism tell us how to do that? Can it be done without physicalism? I'm not saying it can't, but I'm not sure.

    So, wherein lies the attraction of physicalism for scientists? The majority associate themselves with the doctrine, but why? Why not simply maintain metaphysical agnosticism? Is it simply because, as above, physicalism resonates with the idea of scientific inquiry? Is it just an honorary badge to display anti-idealist credentials? Do scientists generally even know or care what they’re committed to?Baden

    This is all metaphysics, which I don't think many scientists care about or are aware of. They, along with most people here on the forum, think that the underlying basis of their understanding of reality is self-evident and eternal.

    My central criticism is not that physicalism is wrong—it's unfalsifiableBaden

    Yes, it's unfalsifiable, you know, metaphysics and stuff. This is true of the isms you've discussed in OP and all those we discuss every day here on the forum.

    2. Physicalism is unscientific.
    The core metaphysical assumptions of most metaphysically naturalist / physicalist positions may be summarized as follows:

    A. There is only one substance, that substance is physical and that substance encompasses all known and all potentially knowable phenomena
    B. The universe is deterministic.
    C. The universe is comprehensively and ultimately law-given and law-abiding.
    Baden

    To keep it simple, I want to talk about physics here, not all science. Isn't it true that physicalist questions are the only ones physics is capable of answering? As we move up the hierarchies of scale, then maybe it makes sense to talk about non-physicalist answers, e.g. what is the nature of the mind. We have a lot of arguments about that here on the forum, e.g. every consciousness discussion ever. This is the place in the discussion where reductionism raises it's ugly head.

    The consequences of this apparent circularity are somewhat jarring. Physicalism does not really do away with the supernatural, but must presume there is some, in principle, discoverable law to account for it, and simply redefine it as natural as necessary.Baden

    It seems to have worked so far.
  • Can we always trust logical reasoning?
    Pragmatism over all.Banno

    Guilty as charged.
  • Can we always trust logical reasoning?
    This is presumably non-trivial. What empirical inference made from observation of the real world is involved?Banno

    Good question Mr. Hume. I'm not sure where it comes from. I'm not sure if it's something we figure out from seeing that certain things seem to recur in certain situations or if it's something more built in. But it certainly is justifiable based on observation and by the fact that our species continues... for now.
  • Atheism about a necessary being entails a contradiction
    it's a description made possible by those distinctions and observations.Hallucinogen

    That's what justification means in this context - empirical evidence. You're just playing with words.

    How many do you have to have observed for your premise to be justified?
    — T Clark

    Just one.
    Hallucinogen

    Sorry, no, that's not how it works. It's clear your premise is nothing but a "seems to me" proposition, i.e. an unjustified assumption.
  • Can we always trust logical reasoning?
    There are things you can know independent of the 'real' world.

    "I am conscious" is one.
    Carlo Roosen

    Of course my consciousness is an aspect of the real world that I know by observation.

    therefore 1 + 1 = 2Carlo Roosen

    I see two ways of looking at this. First, arithmetic is directly related to counting, a human activity involving observation and requiring learning. Second, looking deeper, there is scientific evidence that humans have an innate numerical ability. Very young babies seem to have an ability to understand quantity. I have been touting a book by Konrad Lorenz, "Behind the Mirror." In it, Lorenz claims that this kind of innate ability is a direct result of evolution. He even makes the point explicitly that, even though the ability is built in, ultimately it results from our and our ancestor's interactions with the world.

    If we say "if 1) reality is determistic and 2) we have a free will, it follows 3) we exist outside reality". Where does this go wrong?Carlo Roosen

    This seems like a gigantic non-sequitur. What does this have to do with the discussion we are having? Besides that, your understanding of the determinism vs. free will issue is very different from mine. This is not the place to take that up.
  • Can we always trust logical reasoning?
    Is it possible that with solid premises and correct logical steps, we cannot always accept the conclusion?Carlo Roosen

    All non-trivial logical premises ultimately involve empirical inferences made from observations of the real world. Given the obvious uncertainty associated with those observations, there are no “solid premises” in any kind of unconditional sense.
  • Atheism about a necessary being entails a contradiction
    The ontology of causation and contingency don't depend on our epistemology about them, or keeping track of them.Hallucinogen

    In our previous exchange, you claimed your initial premise is justified "...by distinguishing events and observing entities..." How many of those ((10^80)^80)^80 interactions have you observed? How many do you have to have observed for your premise to be justified?
  • Atheism about a necessary being entails a contradiction
    OK, the particles = the objects denoted by the terms. "Starting from zero" = beginning of the sequence. "Moving outward and bouncing off each other" = the transformations of the sequence.Hallucinogen

    Ok, so there are maybe (10^80)^80 sequences all interacting with each other. Or maybe ((10^80)^80)^80. And there is no one except maybe a hypothetical "necessary being" could keep track of even one of those sequences for more than a few steps. There comes a point where causation, or contingency, loses meaning.
  • Why Einstein understood time incorrectly


    Even with my amateur's understanding of Einstein's physics, this is clearly wrong. The whole point of the relativity theories is that there is no objective time.
  • Atheism about a necessary being entails a contradiction
    Alright, could you provide more detail?Hallucinogen

    To vastly oversimplify... According to the internet, there are something like 10^80 particles in the universe. Starting from zero, they've been moving outward and bouncing off each other for 14 billion years. Show me a series of entities and events in that.
  • Human thinking is reaching the end of its usability
    Things get messy when people use the same words within different contexts. I personally see philosophy as being one of those fields of interest that plays a large role in sorting out such messes, whilst often also exacerbating them!I like sushi

    This is one of the songs I sing incessantly and off key in my posts - define your terms at the beginning of the discussion. There is a lot of resistance to that idea.

    Thinking is not "guided." Guided by whom?
    — T Clark

    'Goal Directed' would have been a better way of framing it. As in, merely having a sense of the word "gradation" as possessing the taste of "blackberries" is not really teleologically significant.
    I like sushi

    Maybe that is a good definition of "reason" - goal directed thought. I'd never thought of it in that way. I like it and will use it at least twice a week in my posts from here on.
  • Human thinking is reaching the end of its usability
    keep in mind that some people will not accept that 'thought' can exist without 'words'.I like sushi

    I think you're right. We see some of them here on the forum - people who think that all thinking is reasoning, which does require language.

    Empirical evidence and anecdotal evidence are close enough when dealing with subjective experiences in the real world.I like sushi

    Don't think when I question anecdotal evidence I'm rejecting introspection - self-awareness. I see that as a foundation of philosophical understanding.

    It can be argued by some that this is not 'thinking' though because it does not appear to be guided ...this is precisely the bias some people hold (maybe correctly) regarding what we refer to as 'thought'. Which seems to be more or less what you are saying.I like sushi

    Thinking is not "guided." Guided by whom? I think you're talking about the people whom I referred to above who think all thinking is reasoning. And no, this is not what I'm suggesting.

    There is a psychologist (or cognitive neuroscientist/linguist?) who believes that ALL emotions exist only because we created words for them.I like sushi

    I think there is some truth to that. If I understand him correctly, Damasio makes a distinction between emotions and feelings. Emotions come instinctively while feelings have to be learned.
  • Am I my body?
    Welcome to the forum.

    This means simply that the perceiving mind is an incarnated body, or to put the problem in another way, he enriches the concept of the body to allow it to both think and perceive. It is also for these reasons that we are best served by referring to the individual as not simply a body, but as a body-subject.Kurt Keefner

    Here's how I think about it, based on introspection. As I experience it, my self - my identity, I, me, my soul, my spirit - is my experience of the world. I am my thinking, feeling, remembering, perceiving, imagining, what else? That includes my experience of my body. Does that answer the question? Is that what the text I've quoted above is saying? I'm not sure.
  • Atheism about a necessary being entails a contradiction
    (1) Existence is a series of entities and events.
    — Hallucinogen

    That is an assumption - an unsupported supposition.
    T Clark

    No, it's not an assumption. It's a description made possible by distinguishing events and observing entities appear and disappear as conditions change.Hallucinogen

    I believe describing existence as a series of entities and events is inaccurate. That is based on my own observations and my understanding of physics.
  • Atheism about a necessary being entails a contradiction
    (1) Existence is a series of entities and events.Hallucinogen

    That is an assumption - an unsupported supposition.

    (4) If all entities are contingent, then there’s no necessary (non-contingent) entity.Hallucinogen

    You seem to be claiming, without stating explicitly or providing support, that existence in a series of events implies contingency, i.e. causation.
  • Facts, the ideal illusion. What do the people on this forum think?
    There is no complete certainty, we round the numbers of reality by decimals. Trying to know as much as possible but never can every degree of accuracy be defined. It is simply infinity. Like the title says: "Facts, the ideal illusion". It is an ideal scenario to know things as facts, but calling it facts is the illusion many people tend to base their reality on.Plex

    The point of my post, and Gould's quote, is that you're applying an inappropriate standard of what is required for something to be a fact. There will always be uncertainty, but there comes a time when we have to use the information we have. That's what people, including you, do every day in our regular lives. Questions of truth and knowledge come up all the time on the forum and they usually get all tangled up in this one issue. We humans don't need facts the way you want to define them, we need good enough information to allow reasonably effective decisions.
  • Human thinking is reaching the end of its usability
    you are confusing subjective experience with empirical data.I like sushi

    No, you are confusing anecdotal personal impressions with knowledge of how the brain and mind work.

    I have met several people who cannot think without words. I first became aware of this when my secondary English teacher told the class he could not think without words - had no subjective capacity to produce images and his dreams were purely auditory. Other people I have spoken to like this do have visual dreams but cannot perform the same visualisation when in a waking state.I like sushi

    I have a friend who has, as she says, no minds eye. She can't imagine, remember, or dream visual images, but she has no problem with representing her other senses mentally. That has nothing to do with being able or unable to think without words. Much of anyone's thinking takes place below the threshold of self-awareness - without words. Words come along fairly late in the thinking process.

    A lot of people when pressed on this matter do sometimes 'pretend' to fit in.I like sushi

    My friend didn't "pretend" to fit in, she wasn't aware until late in life that she was any different from other people. Starting from earliest childhood, she just compensated for her handicap without realizing it. No one noticed.
  • TPF Quote Cabinet
    It is wrong to think that the task of physics is to find out how Nature is. Physics concerns what we can say about Nature. — Niels Bohr
  • "More like a blog post"
    So do you think low quality posts should not be moderated? Every time a low quality post is moderated are you going to come along and try to make an argument in favor of low quality posts?Leontiskos

    You don’t seem to have read what I wrote.
  • "More like a blog post"

    I like and respect you and I’m tired of barking at you. So I’ll leave it at that.
  • "More like a blog post"
    What makes you believe Carlo is?fdrake

    Because his posts and discussions are within the bounds that are usually allowed here on the forum. Even if they are low quality, which I don't think they are, a lot of crap is allowed here. Also, as I noted previously, the public nature of harsh criticism by moderators is inappropriate.

    Please bear in mind that this discussion is public, given your prior comment expressing discomfort regarding public airing of related issues.fdrake

    That's not what I said. I said that it is inappropriate for moderators to threaten posters in public. Beyond that, I'm not criticizing @Carlo Roosen, I'm criticizing the moderators.
  • Question about deletion of a discussion
    "Nuclear crisis – 2024 and the strategy of a nuclear war" was not the greatest OP,BC

    Agreed, but it wasn't beyond the pale here on the forum.

    Beyond the pale - Of a person or their behaviour: outside the bounds of what is acceptable, or regarded as good judgment, morality, ethics, etc.

    From beyond + the + pale (“wooden stake, picket; fence made from wooden stakes, palisade; bounds, limits; territory or defensive area within a specific boundary or under a given jurisdiction”), suggesting that anything outside an authority’s jurisdiction is uncivilized.

    According to the Oxford English Dictionary, there is insufficient evidence that the term originally referred to the English Pale, the part of Ireland directly under the control of the English government in the Late Middle Ages; or to the Pale of Settlement (Russian: Черта́ осе́длости (Čertá osédlosti)) which existed from 1791 to 1917 in the Russian Empire, where Jewish people were mostly relegated to living. The first attestation of this English translation of the Russian in the OED is 1890.
    Wiktionary
  • "More like a blog post"
    You haven't provided anything of substance. Lots of opinionated fluff and vague assertions.Heracloitus

    I don't agree. Beyond that, the forum is full of opiniated fluff and vague assertions. I don't know why @Carlo Roosen is being singled out.

    Personal reflection on your own thoughts and experiences is not, on that basis alone, philosophy of mind. It is conversational in tone and almost devoid of philosophical content. Hence, lounge.fdrake

    Carlo Roosen's discussions are no less substantive than many here on the forum. I don't know why you are singling him out.

    You seem to be rejecting the use of introspection as a mode of studying the mind. If so, that is an unreasonable prejudice on your part.
  • Quantum ethology and its philosophical aspects
    ethology (a combination of the game theory with the theory of evolution)Linkey

    Ethology is the study of animal behavior.

    Roger Penrose has suggested that quantum effects are working in the nervous system of living organisms. Currently there is some experimental evidence in favour of this hypothesis:Linkey

    I took a quick look at your linked articles. Most of them talk about quantum biology in general with only a brief discussion of effects on cognition. They point out that potential quantum mental effects are speculative and controversial. Here is a quote from one of them:

    At first sight, it does seem unlikely that delicate quantum effects, such as coherence, tunnelling, entanglement or spin could play significant roles in a warm, wet, brain. However, the Nobel Prize winning UK mathematician, Roger Penrose, together with the American anaesthetist, Stuart Hameroff, made probably the most audacious claim for quantum biology in recent years in their proposal that quantum coherence in neuronal microtubules is capable of quantum computing and is the substrate for consciousness [371,372]. This proposal has generated a great deal of discussion and criticism [4], and it is fair to say that it has not received significant support in either the physics or neuroscience community and so will not be considered further in this review.Quantum Biology: An Update and Perspective

    If this is true, then we can assume that there is quantum entanglement between the brains of related individuals in nature;Linkey

    By what logic can we make that inference?