I agree that there are atheists who intentionally mischaracterize religious ideas out of prejudice. — praxis

I wasn't talking about intentional mischaracterization. I think many atheists don't think twice when they say things like that.

There are also theists who intentionally mischaracterize atheist ideas out of prejudice. — praxis

But that's not what we're talking about here. I don't think atheists need to be defended here on the forum. Elsewhere they do.

If I'm wrong why you don't try to clarify what you mean? — praxis

All I ever said was 1) Atheists put theist ideas in boxes, by which I meant they mischaracterize their beliefs based on their own biases. 2) Claiming that Christians believe the bible is infallible is a very common example of that process. 3) It is not true that Christians in general believe the bible is infallible.

Everything else you say I said, I didn't say.

Particles of stuff (atoms), as the elementary element of Physics, has been gradually & grudgingly superseded by nonlocal continuum Fields of information patterns, consisting of an imaginary grid of mathematical points with no extension in space. — Gnomon

This is not true.

T Clark seems to be claiming, unless I'm misinterpreting him, that believers only believe in the ineffable, not anything particular, and not the words that are preached to them. Atheists come up with the particulars, all the words, the so-called 'boxes'. — praxis

Here is the argument:

Premise 1: The concept of a designer necessarily requires a starting point.
Premise 2: If the designer was designed, then there must have been another designer that preceded it, leading to an infinite regress.
Conclusion: Therefore, the designer must have been the starting point, and not designed by another entity. — gevgala

Welcome to the forum.

When you say "the designer" I assume you mean the one who planned our reality, the world we see around us. I don't see any evidence that reality was planned by anyone. It looks like it just sort of happened.

I guess we should just step back one step - who created reality? Does that make a difference? Without any specific justification, I've always assumed the universe has just always been here. No beginning and no end. I admit I don't have any evidence for that position, but I don't have any evidence against it either. Let's apply Occam's razor. As you know, that's the principle that, when looking at different but equally effective explanations for the same phenomena, we should accept the one that allows us to forget about the whole thing.

That's my solution. No designer, no creator. It just is the way it is.

And yet that fallible scripture is the source of their belief in sin, Jesus, resurrection and eternal life. Cherry-picking is not a modern practice.
Are there alternate sources for a description of that Christian god, or not? Is there an alternate, more reliable account of the roots of Christianity? — Vera Mont

I'm not a good source to answer questions about the origin of Christian beliefs. I was only responding to your contention that Christians consider the bible "infallible truth." Most don't. That's all I said.

I never called the writers of scripture unlearned. I have no record of their educational backgrounds. Is he not referring to that selfsame Bible? Perhaps the theologians that have come to prominence since the move to Rome had other reference material. I Only said I get my image of their god from that book. I'm not sure what other scriptures Augustine consulted, but I don't remember being more impressed with his god than Matthew's. (Granted, I read him and Aquinas quite a long time ago and forgotten everything except that 1. Aquinas was more literary and 2. neither of them convinced me, even though I was more open to persuasion in my youth.) — Vera Mont

You're arguing with a man who's been dead for 1592 years.

No. I have said that the god most frequently referred-to in discussions is the one depicted in the Bible. Do non-fundamentalist Christians draw their understanding of their god from some other source that I can consult? Then they should cite those sources during the discussion. — Vera Mont

You called God "that jumped-up tribal deity we know only from a big book Christians revere as infallible truth." You can't not know that most Christians don't see the bible as infallible. St. Augustine didn't 1,600 years ago. The Pope doesn't.

Now that I think about it a bit more, I think Clark may be saying something different. Basically that God is ineffable so any dumb atheist that comes along with their boxy reason will be invariably off the mark. God cannot fit in a box. The believers know that. Atheists are too clueless to grasp this wonderous truth. — praxis

Ahem...

I've never, that I can recall, attempted to box or stack a god. I disbelieve in all the ones I've heard of, and the one that is most frequent subject of discussions - and my rejection - is that jumped-up tribal deity we know only from a big book Christians revere as infallible truth. — Vera Mont

Ironically, in denying my point, you've demonstrated it. Probably the most obvious and one of the most egregious examples of atheists putting theistic beliefs into boxes is equating theism with fundamentalist Christianity. Which is what you have done here.

@Wayfarer brought this quote to my attention and I use is whenever I can. It's from St. Augustine, one of fathers of the Catholic Church. It was written in 415 AD:

Usually, even a non-Christian knows something about the earth, the heavens, and the other elements of this world, about the motion and orbit of the stars and even their size and relative positions, about the predictable eclipses of the sun and moon, the cycles of the years and the seasons, about the kinds of animals, shrubs, stones, and so forth, and this knowledge he holds to as being certain from reason and experience.

Now, it is a disgraceful and dangerous thing for an infidel to hear a Christian, presumably giving the meaning of Holy Scripture, talking nonsense on these topics; and we should take all means to prevent such an embarrassing situation, in which people show up vast ignorance in a Christian and laugh it to scorn. The shame is not so much that an ignorant individual is derided, but that people outside the household of faith think our sacred writers held such opinions, and, to the great loss of those for whose salvation we toil, the writers of our Scripture are criticized and rejected as unlearned men.

If they find a Christian mistaken in a field which they themselves know well and hear him maintaining his foolish opinions about our books, how are they going to believe those books in matters concerning the resurrection of the dead, the hope of eternal life, and the kingdom of heaven, when they think their pages are full of falsehoods and on facts which they themselves have learnt from experience and the light of reason? — St. Augustine

That's a serious accusation — praxis

I don't consider people misunderstanding something I've said as particularly serious. It happens all the time. I'm sure it happens to you too.

I’m with you on this. My concern is that the whole thing opens itself to a withering criticism, for instance Bentham’s critique. The project of natural law was never the same since then and with devastating consequences. Perhaps there is a way to reestablish it on better footing. — NOS4A2

Another poem came to mind. This is an excerpt from "As If" by Carl Dennis.

No strollers out on the street today are required
To believe all men created equal, all endowed
By their creator with certain rights,
As long as they behave as if they do,
As if they believe the country would be better off
If more people do likewise, that acting this way
May help their fellow Americans better pursue
The happiness your housemate believes she's pursuing
Sharing her house with you, that the fisherman
Wants to believe he's found in fishing. — Carl Dennis - As If

Atheists don't make up religions. Religious leaders do. They box up God, Gods, or whatever. Atheists question these stories or 'boxes'. — praxis

You have misunderstood and misused my metaphor. You should come up with your own.

I’m with you on this. My concern is that the whole thing opens itself to a withering criticism, for instance Bentham’s critique. The project of natural law was never the same since then and with devastating consequences. Perhaps there is a way to reestablish it on better footing. — NOS4A2

When I read your OP, I wanted to push back strongly against the idea that human rights are somehow dispensable, avoidable. That's what my posts in this thread have been about up to this point. I acknowledge I am making a moral judgement. As I noted previously, human rights are not physical properties of the universe. They represent human action and I would say human nature. Rights are commitments, not laws. We act as if they are laws of nature because they are central to our humanity.

I'm not sure why, but Robert Frost's poem "The Black Cottage" came to mind. Here's an excerpt:

For, dear me, why abandon a belief
Merely because it ceases to be true.
Cling to it long enough, and not a doubt
It will turn true again, for so it goes.
Most of the change we think we see in life
Is due to truths being in and out of favour.
As I sit here, and oftentimes, I wish
I could be monarch of a desert land
I could devote and dedicate forever
To the truths we keep coming back and back to.
So desert it would have to be, so walled
By mountain ranges half in summer snow,
No one would covet it or think it worth
The pains of conquering to force change on.
Scattered oases where men dwelt, but mostly
Sand dunes held loosely in tamarisk
Blown over and over themselves in idleness.
Sand grains should sugar in the natal dew
The babe born to the desert, the sand storm
Retard mid-waste my cowering caravans- — Robert Frost - The Black Cottage

Rather, atheists complain about the untidiness of the boxes that religious leaders put God into. — praxis

You've been talking to different atheists than I have.

Do you mean to say that most of our decisions are too trivial and petty to be measured by the lofty standards of rationality? — SophistiCat

No. I just mean that people don't normally take a rational approach to decision making. I'll go further and say that in many cases, we shouldn't expect them to. For example - this ultimatum game. It would be neither rational nor irrational for me to reject an offer. Any rational decision would have to include underlying assumptions. Those assumptions, e.g. the relative value of money and dignity, are questions of value not rationality.

That's Thomas Nagel. The bridge-laws guy is Ernest Nagel. — frank

I'll take a look.

The Nagel approach says we will eventually reduce a baseball game to quantum theory by way of bridge laws which connect the dots. This is expected to be a matter of vocabulary. — frank

I'm not familiar with Nagel, so I looked him up on Wikipedia. It seems like his position on reductionism relates mostly to it's presentation of consciousness as a physical process. His objection, if I understand it correctly, is that the reductionist approach ignores the experience of qualia.

Anderson's approach is completely different and much broader. It takes in all of science. I don't know but I'd imagine Nagel would not agree with Anderson's interpretation.

Thoughts? — frank

I forgot to mention - the article I linked is a reprint with a new introduction. The introduction is actually longer than Anderson's paper and has a lot more detail on the subject. You should take a look at it too.

The second meaning of reductionism is the assertion that all sciences should reduce to physics (just as Apollo did). The argument for this hinges mainly on the success of physics up to this point. At least methodologically, scientists should continue to stick to what's been working for thousands of years. We should approach all topics available for scientific inquiry as if the goal is further reduction to physics. — frank

This is something I am wrasseling with right now. The source I generally turn to is a paper by P.W. Anderson called "More is Different." He talks about the hierarchy of science and the relationships between different levels. Here's what he says:

…the reductionist hypothesis does not by any means imply a constructionist" one: The ability to reduce everything to simple fundamental laws does not imply the ability to start from those laws and reconstruct the universe. In fact, the more the ele- mentary particle physicists tell us about the nature of the fundamental laws, the less relevance they seem to have to the very real problems of the rest of science, much less to those of society.

The constructionist hypothesis breaks down when confronted with the twin difficulties of scale and complexity. The behavior of large and complex aggregates of elementary particles, it turns out, is not to be understood in terms of a simple extrapolation of the properties of a few particles. Instead, at each level of complexity entirely new properties appear, and the understanding of the new behaviors requires research which I think is as fundamental in its nature as any other. That is, it seems to me that one may array the sciences roughly linearly in a hierarchy, according to the idea: The elementary entities of science X obey the laws of science Y… — P.W. Anderson - More is different

The footer of the quote has a link to the paper.

On the other hand, I'm currently reading a book by Addy Pross called "What is Life" about how life develops from non-living chemistry. In it, Pross claims that the rejection of reductionism is a mistake. That's why I'm wrasseling. I think he's wrong, but I'm reevaluating my position.

Rationality implies certain shared epistemic standards. Those standards have to be at least enduring and widespread, if not permanent and universal, or they would have no meaning. Further, they cannot be inviolate, or else they would be superfluous. It follows then that not every decision is necessarily rational.

Further, "right" is not the same as "rational." Rationality is normative, but it does not represent the full extent of normativity. — SophistiCat

Most things humans do are neither rational nor irrational, they are non-rational.

But I maintain that Natural Rights, like any right, exists only in the heads and mouths of those who are willing to confer them. He observes and reasons about human nature, derives from it a sum of acceptable behaviors, confers the right to perform these behaviors to all people, and endorses and defends them thereby. The whole project of human rights is dependent upon the rights giver, which as already intimated, is everyone. — NOS4A2

I don't disagree with this, but I would put the emphasis differently. Yours is on the tentative nature of rights, their conditionality. Mine is on my judgement that the only way to proceed morally is to act as if it were true. Philosophers do that all the time.

The more and more people believe in natural law, take it upon themselves to confer rights, the more and more we have natural rights. The less and less people do this, the less and less we have natural rights. At any rate, as soon as the natural lawyer disappears or otherwise stops conferring those rights, the rights are no longer conferred. We’ve seen this happen for instance in Germany where legal positivism became the handmaiden to Hitler’s power. Had there been some natural lawyers there I wager it would be a different story. — NOS4A2

Again, a difference in emphasis. It's important that we are committed to the fact that rights to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness can be violated, but they can't be taken away.

But the idea that man is endowed with any rights at all, inalienable or otherwise, is certainly wrong. — NOS4A2

That man is no rights holder ought to convince the natural lawyer to ditch the metaphor of nature or god as legislator and start back at the beginning. Square one: only man can legislate. Only man can confer rights. Man is not a rights holder. Rather, he is a rights giver. — NOS4A2

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.--That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, --That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness. — US Declaration of Independence

I think your statements that I quoted are completely right and completely wrong. It's true that rights don't enforce themselves. They are not built into the superstructure of the universe like the second law of thermodynamics. But they are built into the moral foundation of our human nature. Saying that certain human rights are unalienable is a statement of human value. It's also a commitment to stand behind those rights for everyone. In order to be fully human, we have to stand up for each other.

You're just bringing up the old justified true belief balderdash without calling it that. Pretty soon you'll get to the Gettier problem. JTB is the appendix of the philosophical world. Appendix as in that small, useless organ that is attached to our intestines. It keeps hanging around for no particular purpose and just pops up every now to cause trouble.

Having said that, I won't interrupt your thread anymore.

I think Watkins account in Confirmable and influential metaphysics the better. — Banno

I am not familiar with it. There are many approaches to metaphysics. Given my strong attachment to the views of Collingwood, what does Watkins have to offer.

I thought that it's unproveable like the simulation hypothesis because there's no way to get outside of it to know for sure. — Darkneos

I think you're right. Solipsism is like the simulation hypothesis. If you are correct that they are unprovable, and I think you are, then they're metaphysics, not science. You're fairly new here. I don't know if you've heard my metaphysics spiel, which is similar to that described by R.G. Collingwood in his "Essay on Metaphysics." Metaphysical statements are not true or false. They have no truth value. They are the underlying assumptions, Collingwood called them "absolute presuppositions," that underlie our understanding of the nature of reality. They are the foundations of science.

Secondly God is not ‘based on an idea’. If anything, God is reduced to an idea or a series of propositions, which then are said to have no possibility of empirical validation. But that is a kind of ‘straw God’ in that it refers mainly to the kind of God whose only presence is as a term in Internet debates. In practice belief in God is grounded in community, in tradition, and in a way of living, which opens up horizons of being in a way that mere propositional knowledge cannot. — Wayfarer

I agree with this. Atheism forces God into little boxes and then complains when the boxes don't stack neatly.

Well, there certaintly isn't any corroborable, public evidence — 180 Proof

And shared experience doesn't count? Not sure about that.

or sound arguments for "theism" (e.g. the existence of any "theistic" g/G). — 180 Proof

I probably disagree. Still thinking.

Some theists will point to personal experiences as evidence, but these experiences can be subjective and interpreted in different ways. — Thund3r

Personal experience is evidence, whether or not you find it convincing. I'm not here to make the case for theism, but saying there's no evidence is just not true. Have you had a similar personal spiritual experience, whether or not you identify it with God?

very substantial, life changing amount — Hanover

I think this would be the issue for me. If someone tried to screw me like this, I would be temped to refuse the offer unless it were a life-changing amount. Just think of the joy of vindictiveness!

joy of vindictiveness. — Hanover

Priceless.

I was thinking about this. I assume the responder is not given a chance to negotiate with the proposer. That would probably make a big difference.

I wonder if this is where the phrase "fifty-four forty or fight" came from. [lie] Little known fact - the US dollar was only valued at 94 cents back in the 1800s. [/lie]

By the same token, in writing a bad review I’m providing a service. I’m saying, it’s ok not to read this, try something wonderful instead. — Jamal

I wasn't questioning your decision to review the book, only pointing out a difference in our approach. For what its worth, I thought your evaluation was interesting and worthwhile.

I find I can’t write anything interesting about books I love, or I just don’t feel motivated to do so. — Jamal

It's the opposite for me. It's not just that I want to tell people how much I like the book, I also want to figure out for myself why I do. The reasons I don't like books are generally simpler than reasons I do. Or if not simpler, at least more obvious. To paraphrase Tolstoy - All bad books are alike; each good book is good in its own way.

Alright, it's settled. Put a notice in The Boston Globe informing hopeful recipients that they are officially shit out of luck. — BC

Thank you for this vote of confidence.

But once its more money it seems like there is too much risk. You have done some statistical analysis of your abilitiy to intuit trustworthyness. Or humans' abilities. — Bylaw

For the purposes of this discussion, I'm am framing this as a question of how much justification is needed. More money, more risk, more justification needed. In that regard, a judgement of @Aminima's trustworthiness is part of that justification.

I have lots of doubts about reparations because there are philosophical and practical difficulties. — BC

I'm agin um. They'll make things worse. Maybe even I'd resent people getting money just because of race or some other arbitrary criteria. Plenty of rich people would get reparations. Many poor people wouldn't. There'll be all sorts of fraud. Bad idea.

Depends what that really means. Does self-interest have to incorporate simply monetary gain? Keeping one's dignity can be in one's self-interest, perhaps. Viewing something as unfair and so proving that point can be in one's self-interest. — schopenhauer1

I agree. Also, for most of us, $10 is no big loss. Screwing someone who's trying to screw us is worth lots more.

You got free money, yes? You didn't earn it, but in order to keep it, you have to share it.
By offering a paltry share, you show yourself to be an avaricious and ungracious beneficiary.
The persons - including myself - who reject such an offer are showing you that uncivic-minded individuals like yourself are not welcome in our community; a dollar will not buy you acceptance. — Vera Mont

My sense of fairness is worth more that $1 or even $10. If it were $10,000, that would be a different thing. On the other hand, telling someone to go fry ice when he tries to stiff me for thousands might be worth it.

I wanted to write something about it and couldn’t do that in good conscience without reading the whole thing — Jamal

Yes, I've always thought that if I want to say something about a book, I should finish it. I rarely write negative things about books. There are so many wonderful books out there and I want to point them out to people. There are also a bunch of well-known or popular books that are very bad - either badly written, badly argued, or filled with bad ideas. I'm generally willing to let people take their chances with them. Exceptions - "The Tao of Physics" and "The God Delusion."

Although I said the book was joyless, it’s sometimes delightfully bizarre and funny. It’s not clear if any of the humour was intended, though it did feel like a satire on post-sixties sexual freedom and violence in the media, or else a parody of transgressive fiction or pornography. But judging by what the author himself has said about it, I think it’s meant to be taken very seriously indeed. — Jamal

I haven't read the book. I admire your efforts to give a fair evaluation of a book you didn't like. I would likely have been less generous. More likely, I wouldn't have finished it.

Tort law seems to tolerate a long gap between event and consequence...

...Is this a past injustice or a current injustice? — BC

Civil suits are not the same as reparations, which was what I was talking about. If a specific person was harmed in a specific way by other specific people, they can, subject to state and federal law, sue them. I don't see how that is inconsistent with the position I have taken.