Yes, good point and I see that. But it’s not enough is it? That a country beset with racism was founded on egalitarianism might prompt us to wonder if there’s something wrong, or at least deficient, with that founding idea. — Jamal

A politics which took this seriously should therefore not propagate even the idea of the abstract equality of human beings. They should rather point to the bad equality of today … and think of the better condition as the one in which one could be different without fear. — Adorno, Minima Moralia

We address matters of unworkable complexity by limiting the number of factors involved and simplifying those factors further by establishing a sole purpose and importance. The criteria for what is unworkable complexity is low. To express one's self, in thinking or communication, there needs to be a concise message. Of all the points of possible relevance that could be brought up and used to reach some type of conclusion, it is not feasible to use more than a handful.

The limitation of logic lies in our limited capacity to deal with more than this handful of factors, and that each factor must be limited further still by meaning. — Judaka

How many choices must be made to reach one's conclusion? To eliminate the number of potential factors to a manageable amount? To give each point the meaning necessary to justify its relevance? The very process of thinking precludes the possibility that one hasn't created a circumstance with parameters resulting from the prerequisites of simplifying for limitations of expression. Maybe an AI that could send millions of bits of information in a second to another would have a chance to go beyond that, but for humans it's impossible. — Judaka

Using the tools at one's disposal to create their truth, one's thoughts should only be evaluated by what one produces with them. Unreasonable arguments that bring a person happiness, therefore, produce happiness. Well-reasoned, intelligent arguments that bring a person despair, therefore, produce despair. Happiness is preferable to despair, and so the illogical and fallacious perspective is correct. — Judaka

It's one's goals, and what's being aimed to accomplish that should be used to measure the value of the perspective or position. The methodology for measuring the various pros and cons is what matters, rather than evaluating the logic or truthfulness of the ideas. Those goals might be personal, social, financial, or for the sake of producing competence at something and so on. — Judaka

The alternative is to make choices without thinking about them, or pretending like they're done for some nobler reason. Influenced by what you've been taught by your culture, your upbringing, family values, performing gender roles and whatever else. Instead of having an unrewarding loyalty to such influences, isn't it better to instead aim to produce something valuable? — Judaka

For the first time in my life, I am able to spell his name without copying and pasting from a Google search. — Jamal

Seems reasonable. Before I do it myself, can anyone see how to save my original analysis? — Jamal

It's not just writing — Judaka

There's a difference between saying certain religious beliefs are less preposterous than others and saying all religious beliefs are preposterous or saying all religion is preposterous. — Ciceronianus

I never said that religion is preposterous. — Ciceronianus

I think that certain religious beliefs are less preposterous than others. But I doubt believers care whether they're more or less preposterous to others, and will be unimpressed by any argument that they're beliefs are unreasonable regardless of whether they're told there is no God or that particular beliefs about God are unsupportable. — Ciceronianus

The undeniability of progress is easily overstated, especially by those who believe they have made the most, - 'that surely cannot have been accidental?' — unenlightened

Then someone figures out a new farming technique that further boosts productivity, and humans are able to store knowledge and teach future generations about this improved technique. It's an inevitable consequence of our ability to learn and teach. — Judaka

If we just look at claims about God and about QM, the claims themselves may see equally preposterous. — Art48

When it comes to the crux, the attribute I dislike most in any field (politics or faith) is the gatekeeper who thinks they can tell ordinary people how they should live their lives and judges others for making different choices. — Tom Storm

An ad hominem is a kind of explanation for the inconsistency I guess. — praxis

Curious that I find that surprising. Maybe it’s because he stated that “religions are experts in causing harm” and historically you seem to look down on that sort of biased statement towards religion. — praxis

I have problems with many practices in politics, atheism, religion, science - any belief system that causes harm (as I see it). Now I happen to think religions are experts in causing harm (based largely upon personal experience and familiarity with their works) but religions are by no means alone in this. I don't just think it's a question of being large. I think there are plenty of small organisations that commit abuse upon their adherents/members. I do hold antipathy towards institutions. I don't think this comes out of atheism, more out of skepticism and perhaps nascent or inchoate anarchism. But that's for a different thread. — Tom Storm

There's no shame, TC, in admitting you were mistaken aboth both comparing QM to religion and suggesting that QM is the kind of thing a great scientist like Einstein could believe in or not believe in. — 180 Proof

That's a classic equivocation fallacy. Who is saying religion is the only source of evil shit on earth, just one of the main players. Certainly that would be my point. I have no more love for politics than I have for religion. I am a political bigot too. — Tom Storm

Actually, projection is "bad philosophy". — 180 Proof

Religions actively shape world politics and nationalism and supports legislative change which impact on millions of people - everything from gay rights, the rights of women, capital punishment, euthanasia, contraception, abortion, what books which can be read, etc, etc. It's not just America and stacking the Supreme Court. Pernicious social policies and practices are rife in places like Modi's Hindu nationalist India and Saudi Arabia through the impact of Wahhabi Islam. — Tom Storm

In fact, I said nothing at all about QM being preposterous. — Ciceronianus

If that's what you believe, so be it. I merely think QM and religion are not analogous. — Ciceronianus

QM is a matter of knowledge, not (make)belief like religion. — 180 Proof

If you have anything specific in mind let me know, or not. — praxis

I'm perfectly willing to go into more depth but I can't tell exactly where you want to go. — praxis

I'll just add that I was motivated by the both of you to re-read the Yeats poem, and the hair stood up on my neck. Hasn't happened in awhile. — Noble Dust

I suspect that those studying QM approach things a bit differently than religious believers. — Ciceronianus

I'm not mean to believers; I'm critical of religious organizations.

Yes. — Vera Mont

Yeah, but QM is the kind of "preposterousness" that works whether or not anybody "believes in" it, unlike any religion. — 180 Proof

I don’t think much depth is needed to point out progress, at least where religion is concerned.

The separation of church and state for instance. Good progress, yes? — praxis

I think "useful" is the wrong way to think about it. People are brought together by communally held beliefs (communism, for instance) because they give life meaning, from which value is derived. This isn't unique to religion. — Noble Dust

But certainly, technology seems to be the most obvious form of real progress, and therefore the form that we question the least. I don't think this is a good thing. — Noble Dust

In this post I'm just looking at a small excerpt, not really to criticize the book itself but to dig out the meaning of the narrative of progress which we find at work, not only in Pinker's thinking, but more widely in the culture. — Jamal

Which only underscores the superfluousness of religion. — praxis

I think "useful" is the wrong way to think about it. People are brought together by communally held beliefs (communism, for instance) because they give life meaning, from which value is derived. This isn't unique to religion. — Noble Dust

I think that certain religious beliefs are less preposterous than others. But I doubt believers care whether they're more or less preposterous to others, and will be unimpressed by any argument that they're beliefs are unreasonable regardless of whether they're told there is no God or that particular beliefs about God are unsupportable. — Ciceronianus

Many people have a deep need to believe in God. They need the comfort of believing their deceased loved ones still exist, that death isn’t the end, and that one day they will join their loved ones in heaven, that there is a protector who they can turn to in times of need, etc. They will not easily give up such comforting beliefs. So, when an atheist criticizes their religion, the believer may feel they have two choices: 1) give up belief in God, religion, and all the comforts that go with it, 2) or reject, ignore, or explain away what the atheist says. — Art48

Eugen may get scolded by the mods. — Joshs

Those are not ''my terms". — Eugen