Well written, thanks. The observation that Americans laugh about their crimes in Iraq is a good point; also the one on what a return of Trump would mean.

Is Ukraine becoming part of the EU realistic? — Tzeentch

It will take some time, like a few years. At worst a few decades.

Nobel peace prize auctioned by Russian journalist Dmitry Muratov, editor-in-chief of Novaya Gazeta, raises record $103.5m for Ukrainian child refugees

Muratov, who was awarded the gold medal in October 2021, said proceeds would go to Unicef to help children displaced by Ukraine war.

Tue 21 Jun 2022 01.27 BST

The Nobel Peace Prize that Russian journalist Dmitry Muratov was auctioning off to raise money for Ukrainian child refugees has sold for $103.5m (£84.5m), shattering the record for a Nobel.

“I was hoping that there was going to be an enormous amount of solidarity,” Muratov said after the sale. “But I was not expecting this to be such a huge amount.”

Previously, the most ever paid for a Nobel prize medal was in 2014, when James Watson, whose co-discovery of the structure of DNA earned him a Nobel prize in 1962, sold his medal for $4.76m. Three years later, the family of his co-recipient, Francis Crick, received $2.27m in bidding run by Heritage Auctions, the same company that auctioned off Muratov’s medal on Monday, World Refugee Day.

Muratov, who was awarded the gold medal in October 2021, helped found the independent Russian newspaper Novaya Gazeta and was the publication’s editor-in-chief when it shut down in March amid the Kremlin’s clampdown on journalists and public dissent in the wake of Russia’s invasion of Ukraine.

It was Muratov’s idea to auction off his prize, having already announced he was donating the accompanying $500,000 cash award to charity. The idea of the donation, he said, “is to give the children refugees a chance for a future”

Muratov has said the proceeds will go directly to Unicef in its efforts to help children displaced by the war in Ukraine. Melted down, the 175 grams of 23-karat gold contained in Muratov’s medal would be worth about $10,000.

Of course the 2014 annexation of Crimea can be seen as the Anschluss part — ssu

Good point.

History is repeating itself. People watched on as Nazism grew, and did nothing. — baker

At least, our modern Hitler failed his Anschluss. That's something to celebrate.

"Is Dombas really worth this?"

I think this thread can use a little bit of French love, so here you go with a pic from the visit of Macron, Draghi and Scholz to Kyiv, that's doing the rounds in social media:



Who will find the best legend for it? :-)

Looked at that way, we'd be approaching reality in a dangerously sober manner. The fighting and killing is over whose truth/lies justice/barbarism becomes history. — magritte

Yes, that's perhaps even closer to it.

I agree that it is 'dangerous' in a way: a lot is a stake, in the real world. That too factors in the general acrimonious tone I think.

why the constant put down? It's symptomatic of something. Perhaps just an attempt to protect the banal nihilism or whataboutism of our times against the return of the seemingly clearcut. — Olivier5

If we follow upon the observation made by Collingwood in his Essay – that people are often ‘ticklish’ about their metaphysics, and all the more so when such metaphysics remains unexplored and unconscious in them – it could be that the reason why this thread has so much verbal violence on display is NOT that it is merely a political thread (hence non philosophical) but on the contrary, that we are circling around a deeply metaphysical question, that hasn’t been teased out yet.

Maybe something like: is there justice in this world? Is there even room for hope in this matter? Is some sort of just world peace worth aiming for, and on what basis, or is history destined to be an absurd tragedy without rhyme nor reason?

I wonder if the constant train of insults and snide remarks from the anti NATO camp is indicative of something, some fragility, a fear. Otherwise, why the constant put down? It's symptomatic of something. Perhaps just an attempt to protect the banal nihilism or whataboutism of our times against the return of the seemingly clearcut.

I understand this very post could be seen as a snide remark, but it's an attempt to understand what motivates posters to be rude, some far more than others.

This thread is an unconstructive mess. — Tzeentch

Maybe this thread is a constructive mess, or as constructive as a mess can be. A number of positions have been thoroughly argued for and against. Not in philosophical terms so far, that is true, and with a lot of anger in the conversation. But you are welcome to chip in and help better define the terms of engagement.

Childhood living
Is easy to do
The things you wanted
I bought them for you
Graceless lady
You know who I am
You know I can't let you
Slide through my hands

Wild horses
Couldn't drag me away
Wild, wild horses
Couldn't drag me away

I watched you suffer
A dull aching pain
Now you've decided
To show me the same
No sweeping exit
Or offstage lines
Could make me feel bitter
Or treat you unkind

Wild horses
Couldn't drag me away
Wild, wild horses
Couldn't drag me away

I know I've dreamed you
A sin and a lie
I have my freedom
But I don't have much time
Faith has been broken
Tears must be cried
Let's do some living
After we die

Wild horses
Couldn't drag me away
Wild, wild horses
We'll ride them some day

I just think of law as something everyone is subject to. There's no enforcing body in that sense. — Tate

No universal one, no.

we'd be forced to give the land back to the first settlers. — creativesoul

Neanderthal ?

There's no enforcement of any of that, though. — Tate

Not on victors, you are right, but there is often some enforcement on losers, as was the case in Nuremberg. In this particular case, if Russia loses the war it might well have to pay reparations, if found guilty of starting it by the Hague or some other international court.

I don't think there is any law at that level of action. That would require a global government. — Tate

There is the UN Charter, as well as various treaties and conventions, eg the Geneva conventions.

I am most certainly not a Christian — creativesoul

You spoke of peaceful coexistence with one's enemy, which was understood as a critique of Mr Putin. Hence you must be the enemy, and you deserve to be buried under an avalanche of shitposts.

Do you think the invasion of Poland by Hitler and Stalin was legitimate too?

A 'yes' or 'no' should suffice. — Olivier5

The Germans were encircled on all sides by France, Russia, and the British Empire. Stalin had started war preparations against Germany back in 1926, long before Hitler came to power. Stalin's Communist International (COMINTERN) aimed to create a Soviet-controlled United States of Europe. Invading Poland was the logical step toward invading Russia in a defensive war. — Apollodorus

I take that as a yes.

Ex-PM says Putin 'out of it', Ukraine war could last two years
Issued on: 13/06/2022

Paris (AFP) – He was Vladimir Putin's first prime minister but Mikhail Kasyanov never in his worst nightmares imagined that his former boss would unleash a full-scale war on Ukraine.

Speaking to AFP in a video interview, Kasyanov, Russia's prime minister from 2000 to 2004, said he expected the war could last up to two years but he was convinced Russia could return to a democratic path.

The 64-year-old, who championed close ties with the West as prime minister, said that, like many other Russians, he did not believe in the weeks ahead of the war that it would actually happen.

Kasyanov only understood that Putin was not bluffing when he saw him summon the country's top leadership for a theatrical meeting of the security council three days before the invasion on February 24.

"When I saw the meeting of Russia's Security Council I realised, yes, there will be a war," Kasyanov said.

He added that he felt that Putin was already not thinking properly.

"I just know these people and by looking at them I saw that Putin is already out of it. Not in a medical sense but in political terms," he said.

"I knew a different Putin."

After being sacked by Putin, Kasyanov joined Russia's opposition and became one of the Kremlin's most vocal critics.

He is now the leader of the opposition People's Freedom party, or Parnas.

- 'Complete lawlessness' -

Kasyanov said Putin, a former KGB agent who turns 70 in October, has managed over the past 20 years to build a system based on impunity and fear.

"These are the achievements of a system that, with the encouragement of Putin as head of state, has started operating even in a more cynical, cruel manner than in the final stages of the Soviet Union," he said.

"Essentially, this is a KGB system based on complete lawlessness. It is clear that they do not expect any punishment."

Kasyanov said he had left Russia because of the war and was living in Europe but he declined to disclose his location out of concern for his safety.

His close ally and fellow opposition politician Boris Nemtsov was gunned down near the Kremlin in 2015.

Putin's best-known critic Alexei Navalny, 46, was poisoned with a nerve agent in 2020 and is now in prison.

Kasyanov predicted the war could last for up to two years and said it is imperative that Ukraine win.

"If Ukraine falls, the Baltic states will be next," he said.

The outcome of the war will also determine Russia's future, he said.

Kasyanov said he "categorically" disagreed with French President Emmanuel Macron's suggestion that Putin should not be humiliated.

He also rebuffed calls for Ukraine to cede territory to end the war.

"What has Putin done to deserve this?" he said. "This is an overly pragmatic position.

"I believe this is wrong and hope that the West won't go down that path."

- 'Enormous tasks' -

Kasyanov believes Putin will eventually be replaced by a "quasi-successor" controlled by the security services.

But a successor would not be able to control the system for long and eventually Russia will stage free and fair elections, the former prime minister said.

"I am certain that Russia will return to the path of building a democratic state," he said.

He estimated it would take about a decade to conduct "de-Communisation" and "de-Putinisation" of the country.

"This will be difficult, especially after this criminal war."

He said trust would have to be re-established with European countries, which he called Russia's "natural partners".

Critics have in the past accused the Russian opposition of being hopelessly divided but Kasyanov said he was confident things would now be different.

"I have no doubt that now, after the tragedy that we are all witnessing, the opposition will unite."

Russians will face a huge task rebuilding their country, he said.

"Everything will have to be rebuilt anew. Essentially, an entire set of economic and social reforms should be started all over again.

"These are enormous and difficult tasks and they will have to be done."

1. You may "agree" with that for rhetorical purposes. But you aren't doing it!!! — Apollodorus

You and you love Putin aren't doing it either!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

2. By all means, give Ukraine to the Ukrainians. But not to NATO and America. And not Crimea and the ethnic-Russian areas.

The 'ethnic Russians' are just invaders from previous periods, and Putin is killing a great deal of them anyway. They don't deserve him nor his terror anymore than other Russians do, and would be better off in democratic Ukraine. But you don't give a shit about them. You'd rather have your idol kill more and more of them.

And then you and others whine forever about 'NATO caca'. :vomit:

Again, you're exposing your duplicity and ignorance of history. — Apollodorus

Na, that's what you do. I was just asking a question which you failed to answer. So let me ask again:

Do you think the invasion of Poland by Hitler and Stalin was legitimate too?

A 'yes' or 'no' should suffice.

Do you think the invasion of Poland by Hitler and Stalin was legitimate too?

'm saddened to say that I find the claim that US foreign policies are suspect to be a generally well founded one. However, that fact(and claims about the fact) could also be used as a means to attempt to justify unacceptable aggression for less than honorable aims, and that is what I believe is currently happening. — creativesoul

:up:

give Tibet back to the Tibetans, Cyprus back to the Cypriots, and Kurdistan back to the Kurds, — Apollodorus

I agree with that. And I would add give back Palestine to the Palestinians, Russia to the Russians, and Ukraine to the Ukrainians.

Test 2.

Test.

A court in the separatist-proclaimed Donetsk People’s Republic of Ukraine convicted two British fighters and one Moroccan on Thursday of seeking the violent overthrow of power, an offense punishable by death in the eastern territory controlled by Moscow-backed rebels.

The men were also convicted of mercenary activities and terrorism.

Tucker Carlson probably gives his loyal viewers that they are the shrewd, rational minority on this great stage of fools, and this anti-academic anti-fancy-talk vibe fits right in. — igjugarjuk

I don't concern myself with FAUX News anchors. If I find parts of academia laughable, I'm going to laugh. Simplify your life.

to take what rightfully belongs to Russia, e.g. Crimea, then their "self-defense" is necessarily qualified by their intention to take something that doesn't belong to them. So, it very much does matter. — Apollodorus

Who Crimea belongs to is open to debate.

And, as US foreign-policy makers like defense secretary Robert Gates have admitted to having played a hand in causing the conflict, — Apollodorus

Did he though?

1. Note that I said "purely in self-defense". If other motives are involved, then it isn't unqualified self-defense.

2. You haven't established that it is unqualified self-defense. — Apollodorus

You haven't established that it's not. And I don't see why other motives would matter. If it is self defense, then that's what it is. What else do you need? A pure heart?

Glad I could cheer you guys up.

So you think some administrative units are evil?

Sokal and Bricmont are heroes in my book. They fought the right fight, and even made it fun. What's not to love?

When and where academia becomes an inbred clique of self-serving poseurs, it is right to ridicule them. It's the Voltairian thing to do. The same kind of prank could have been played on the analytic philosophy clique when they were still dominant in anglo-saxon academia.

What are NATO then, robots? — Isaac

For your info, NATO is an alliance, composed of several signatory nations.

What's there to "clarify"??? — Apollodorus

As explained, the question raised was whether your argument is about morality or legitimacy.

If you unlawfully (or unjustly) kill someone, you'll rightly get jailed for murder. If you do it purely in self-defense, or in defense of others, you'll get acquitted or (depending on the circumstances) even praised for doing it. — Apollodorus

Therefore, Ukrainians and their allies are worthy of praise, since Ukraine is acting in self defense. Thank you for recognising this.

Ukraine fires 5,000-6,000 artillery shells a day, says deputy head of military intelligence
by AFP and Le Figaro

Ukraine has exhausted all of its Russian and Soviet-made weaponry and now depends exclusively on weapons supplied to it by foreign allies, including Western artillery, according to several US military sources. In fact, Ukraine's deputy military intelligence chief, Vadym Skibitsky, told the Guardian that his country has been firing 5,000 to 6,000 artillery shells a day since the start of the war. " It's an artillery war now [...] and we are losing in terms of artillery ", alerted the official, indicating to our colleagues that " Ukraine has one piece of artillery against 10 to 15 pieces Russians ”. “ It all depends now on what the West gives us ,” he added.

As soon as Russia invaded Ukraine on February 24, Westerners mobilized to support Kyiv, which demanded arms and ammunition, while avoiding at all costs taking any action that could be seen as a provocation by Russia -- for fear that the conflict will spread beyond the borders of Ukraine. Without saying so, they also feared that their advanced weapons would fall into the hands of the Russian army.

The West therefore turned to the former Soviet bloc countries, which still had Soviet-standard ammunition, to replace those that the Ukrainian forces were firing at the Russian army. But even these stocks have run out, and Europe's Russian-made arsenal " has disappeared from the face of the planet ", a military official told AFP.

This is why the United States and the other NATO allies have decided to ignore the risks of the conflict spreading or technological leaks. Washington began handing over to Ukraine heavy equipment such as howitzers at first, then advanced equipment such as Himars rocket launchers, high-precision artillery pieces with a range greater than those of the Russian army.

The allies are trying to coordinate their military assistance to Kiev, and to synchronize it so that the Ukrainian forces receive a " continuous flow of ammunition ", but also of spare parts and light weapons, another American military official explained.

This is the stated objective of the Contact Group for Ukraine created by US Defense Minister Lloyd Austin, whose first meeting was held in April in the presence of some forty countries in Ramstein, Germany.

After a second virtual meeting in May, Ukraine's allies are due to meet on June 15 in Brussels.

And if Western weaponry seems to be trickling into Ukraine, it's because the allies want to make sure Kyiv is able to absorb it safely and limit the risk of bombing its ammunition stocks. The United States is therefore sending its military assistance in installments, the latest of which, of 700 million, announced on June 1, included four Himars artillery systems, but also 1,000 additional Javelin anti-tank missiles and four Mi-17 helicopters. , 15,000 shells intended for Howitzers, 15 light armored vehicles, and other ammunition of various calibers. “ We try to maintain a constant flow ,” the second military official said.

Asked about the low numbers of Himars as Ukrainians appear struggling in Donbass, US Chief of Staff General Mark Milley said on Wednesday that Washington wanted to make sure Ukrainian soldiers had them under control well before send more. The Himars is a " sophisticated " system, and " you have to certify these boys, make sure they know how to use these systems correctly ", declared the highest ranking American. It is necessary to train the operators, but also the soldiers in charge of maintenance, as well as the officers and non-commissioned officers so that they are deployed where it is necessary, when it is necessary, he explained.

For Washington, this first shipment is above all a trial balloon to ensure that Himar technology does not fall into enemy hands and that the Ukrainians use this expensive and sensitive equipment wisely. But that does not prevent the Pentagon from preparing the next tranche of military aid. Additional Himars and their ammunition are already prepositioned in Germany, and they will be sent to Ukraine if the experience with the first four proves positive, according to another American military source.

On the other hand, Washington has ruled out granting Kiev long-range combat drones like the " Grey Eagle ", whose range reaches 300 km, enough to hit a major Russian city, according to this source.

1. The point made by Apo was about legitimacy, not morality.
— Olivier5

People tend to use the terms interchangeably and he seemed to want to make a moral argument. — Benkei

He was not, from what I can tell. But maybe he will clarify what he was trying to say.

So the SS were fine as far as you're concerned. — Isaac

The SS were only men. There were not 'an institution'.

It was a great prank, and some French thinkers have been guilty of playing fast and loose with concepts from other fields — igjugarjuk

For precision's sake, Sokal pranked Social Text, an academic journal published by Duke University Press.

I would maybe say here though that concepts evolve because we try to trap them. They have a life because we keep trying to put them death. — igjugarjuk

Yes, something like that. We struggle with them, try and harness them or even defeat them. Like Jacob struggled with a god all night and for this reason was called Israel. And that fight altered him and perhaps it altered the god too.

Yes, one can try and approach essences, or point at them for others to see, or connect them to other ones in metaphors, or simply employ them what they are good at, ie communication. I think it is still important to know that there can be no such thing as total clarity of thought and concepts. There's always some residual ambiguity, which is usually fine since a philosophical problem only requires a certain degree of precision to be communicated or treated to one's temporary satisfaction, not perfect precision.

Concepts evolve, they have a life, a vitality which you can kill if you try to trap them.

But this same system makes 'pure' rationality impossible. — igjugarjuk

I see nothing intrinsically impure about faith. All this seems like a pointless direction of thought to me, in search of some sort of ghost, a thought without heart, a philosophical algorithm or as you say, the automation of critical thinking.

Granted that the positivists tried it, as well as the logical positivists genre circle of Vienna. But as Popper and Socrates before him have shown, they were on an unproductive track in search of positive, definite certainty.

The essence of rationality is a ghost. Essences are always ghostly. We can barely watch them, let alone catch them.