The idea that we need to confirm our subjective experiences in controlled settings or they're not veridical is ridiculous on its face. — Sam26

That's not what I said. Maybe it is true that David Copperfield really levitated that day. Its a given that what we subjectively experience may, or may not be true. Its about whether we have the proper evidence to claim that our interpretation of that subjective experience is in alignment with what really happened. Given that we can duplicate and test NDEs, it is only reasonable that we test and use those findings to figure out what is going on in reality when people have these experiences.

Or, that we need something more than hundreds of thousands of corroborated (objective) reports is so irrational that only someone with a worldview that is set in cement would accept it. — Sam26

We have billions of people that look into the sky and see that the Sun travels around the Earth. The Sun rises in the East, and sets in the West. No one is saying we don't have that unified and confirmed subjective experience. But is our interpretation of that subjective experience true? No. It turns out that the Earth actually orbits the sun. But from our limited perspectives, and can feel like its the other way around.

Your problem is one of epistemology. I encourage you to open up your field of study into it if it was not your original focus. That was my field of study when I got my degrees years ago. I have my own take on epistemology here if you're interested. https://thephilosophyforum.com/discussion/14044/knowledge-and-induction-within-your-self-context/p1

For example, you continue to say that it's just subjective and when I point out that there has been objective corroboration from doctors, nurses, friends, and family members you just reject it. — Sam26

No, there has been subjective testimony in an uncontrolled setting. Objectively, that testimony has occurred. That does not mean that the perception of what happened means that what they interpreted was objectively real. For example, in the cases in which patients have claimed to see or hear things that sound like they are in the room in uncontrolled settings, it is unknown at what time they had those experiences. If a person is going into anesthesia or coming out of it, consciousness can return at points that are not fully registered to the disoriented individual. But I have already gone over these tests, so will not repeat myself.

A further case in point: Psychics.

I can gather tons of testimonial evidence that certain people have psychic powers. They're able to repeat them in front of people repeatedly, and people would swear they have powers. Much like magicians. But, take any psychic and put them in a controlled lab setting, and you find they're frauds. I'm not saying they didn't objectively have these experiences, same with people who have NDEs and OBEs. Its whether what they are subjectively interpreting matches with objective reality, "I actually left my body and truly observed the room as it is" that needs to be confirmed and has not.

I don't need peer-reviewed studies to understand that there is objective corroboration. — Sam26

You do not need peer reviewed studies to determine objective corroboration with seeing psychics or magicians either. Observation from many subjects in an uncontrolled and tested setting has never been enough evidence to determine any objective conclusions as to whether their perception of the situation matches with objective reality.

Again, you keep making the wrong logical leap. You think that because many people say something in an uncontrolled setting, that their perceptions and beliefs about what happened match objective reality. That could not be further from the truth. At best, you have a situation that generates a hypothesis that needs to be tested. And in every testing case that I am aware of with OBE, it has been found that the person's subjective experience does not conform with objective reality. your argument is the equivalent of a crowd at a David Copperfield performance swearing that he objectively levitated off the ground because that's what everyone saw.

Either you are dodging my point, or you are simply do not understand it. As a person with a background in philosophy, it should be crystal clear to you by now. If you do not provide any evidence that these subjective interpretations of reality have been confirmed as objective realities in controlled settings, then your argument has failed as an assertion. It is a hypothesis, no more, and cannot stand against other the contrary hypothesis that has been confirmed as of this day: "Consciousness does not survive death".

I’m quite familiar with symbolic logic and I know some modal logic which means that I know something about correct reasoning, including how to analyze arguments. — Sam26

We have to prove this every time we make an argument. The proof is in the argument, not our past accomplishments.

Most of our reasoning, including science, is inductive. — Sam26

Very true. But you have to give an inductive argument that rises to the level of scientific consideration. I can inductively believe the moon has little men living inside of it, but its not rigorous or cogent enough to be given serious consideration. Good inductive arguments base as much of their argument on deduction as possible, and only go to induction when it is the only choice. This is different from a hypotheses, which is a claim that has not been tested yet.

You can claim, "Consciousness exists beyond death," as a hypotheses, but then it has to be actually tested and confirmed at least once. This confirmation must be rigorous, and once again, involve as much logic and deduction as possible. You claims pass a hypothesis, but I have not seen any confirmation of your claims. Currently the hypothesis, "Our consciousness does not survive death," has been confirmed in applicable tests. You'll need to show me actual tests that passed peer review, and can be repeated that show our consciousness exists beyond death. To my mind, there are none, but I am open to read if you cite one.

A word about sound arguments (soundness is a property of deductive arguments, it includes validity and the truth of the premises), in logic it’s used as a criterion to describe good deductive arguments, although the truth of the premises of an inductive argument is parallel to soundness in deductive arguments. — Sam26

Certainly, I speak to everyone as if they are a layman until they show me otherwise. Most people do not need the technical context of the word in logic. 'Sound' to the layman is often understood as 'An argument confirmed to be correct'. I've reiterated my point above demonstrating that your inductive argument is at best a hypothesis that has not passed the rigorous testing needed to counter the current conclusion in science that consciousness does not survive death.

For someone to say, “You strike me as a thinker in earlier stages of development,” is laughable given these comments on logic. — Sam26

Knowledge of vocabulary in expert contexts has nothing to do with thinking. Thinking is the strength of our arguments when both sides are on the same contextual vocabulary. I do not see how your arguments have met the criterion I've noted above to be considered more than an unconfirmed hypothesis.

Just because we can duplicate NDEs, it doesn’t follow that NDEs are not objectively real. It just means we know what things can trigger similar aspects of the NDE. It also just means that the brain plays a role in consciousness as we know it. It doesn’t follow that duplicating NDEs demonstrates that consciousness is solely a construct of the brain. — Sam26

Of course being able to duplicate NDEs does not mean they are not real. But it also doesn't demonstrate that they are real apart from subjective experience. Being able to duplicate NDEs means

1. We can set up situations to test NDEs.
2. We can monitor the brain and observe how 'dead' it is.

In the tests that I am aware of, no one has ever been able to observe anything in the room outside of their vision, or confirm outside noises that cannot penetrate the room during the specified time frame. That's a huge blow to the idea that NDE's are more than simply subjective experiences like dreams.

Further, NDE's can be duplicated merely under brain 'stress' in which the brain is still very much alive and active. How can one have a consciousness that both leaves the brain and is in the brain at the same time? I suppose if there was a particular location of the brain that contained consciousness, we could coodinate the reported time of an OBE by what was happening in the room and find a particular brain region that goes dim so we can say, "That's the location consciousness resides". To my knowledge, that hasn't happened yet either.

Another point is that visual and auditory imaging is processed through the brain and the senses. If consciousness left your brain, how is it seeing or hearing? Even if it could receive light or detect the vibrations in the air, wouldn't the perception be different from a brain if you're not getting the information from a brain? The fact that its as a brain would imagine, and the fact that its OBEs have not picked up a confirmed sight or noise outside of visual or auditory range, leads much more tot he idea that an OBE is not actually happening outside of a subjective brain experience.

For someone who claims to have studied NDEs and who continues to say things like, “How do you reconcile the fact that no OBE has ever been shown to see something that was placed outside of their bodies field of view during the time in which the NDE should be occurring?” - is completely mystifying to me. There have been many corroborative NDE accounts of people seeing and hearing things that are nowhere near their bodies. Just a cursory study of NDEs should dispel this belief. — Sam26

Cite a scientific article that has been peer reviewed, proper control and variable setup, and has been repeated with the same success elsewhere and you have a point. Don't be baffled. Just point out the studies.

People have heard conversations in other parts of the hospital, have heard and seen things happening many miles from where their body is located, and have seen people in their NDE that they didn’t know were dead, this happens all the time. — Sam26

If this is in a non-scientific setting, its useful as a means to explore a hypothesis, but nothing more. Cite a reputable article in a controlled setting and you'll have something.

One example of corroboration is given in Pam's NDE out of Atlanta, GA — Sam26

I responded to this a few posts back with an article that demonstrated why the claims were not enough to confirm an actual OBE. Feel free to refute them, no statute of limitations here! :)

To know if the premises are true, we need corroboration of the testimonial evidence, a high degree of consistency, and firsthand testimony. In all or most of these cases, it seems clear that we have all three. — Sam26

Again, all this proves is a subjective consistency in some people, while as you've noticed in The Near Death experience paper you cited, there are many people who also do not have, or have very different NDE experiences. Only about half have OBEs, while the majority have variations of pleasant feelings. Considering OBEs have not been show to be objectively real, the majority having pleasant feelings when under oxygen deprivation or other slowed brain activity is hardly a slam dunk argument that consciousness is surviving outside of the brain.

Again, everything except Pam that you have cited is evidence of a shared subjective experience people have, NOT an objective confirmation that consciousness is actually leaving the brain, making observations, then returning to the brain after. Pam is again, a great example of something which lends to a hypothesis. But testing is where objectivity is determined. And unless you can give such testing, your argument that consciousness survives outside of the brain as an objective reality has no real evidence.

I think at its most basic, justification is simply, "An answer to why I make my choice/conclusion".

Justification can be deductive or inductive. In general, I favor justifications that rely on as much deductive reasoning as possible, and where that fails, probability and possibilities for types of inductions. Generally justification that relies on pluasibilities, or "Things we can imagine as being possible, but we have not actually confirmed that they are possible" is not good enough.

For example: Consciousness lives on after we die. There is no fact or possibility (that it has been confirmed to have happened at least one time) but only plausibility. We imagine its possible, but we haven't actually confirmed that it is. This is not a good enough justification to believe the claim, therefore rationally we should not agree with it.

What is the definition of a universal that you're using?

I wouldn't call this a riddle. This is a logic problem. They can be pretty fun to do, but there are countless online. https://www.brainzilla.com/logic/logic-grid/ if you want to join up and play a bunch.

The more I interact with your ideas, the more familiar and relatable they become. — Treatid

That is a very nice compliment and I am humbled to see it. You have a keen and curious mind, and you've given me plenty to think on as well.

A hill climbing algorithm can get stuck at a local maxima and never find the global maxima. — Treatid

Yes. I've thought about this a long time ago but never had anyone bring this aspect up before. That is because we create perfectly logical systems. What a perfectly logical system lacks is induction, and a variety of approaches towards the same problem. Since I thought of this, machine learning has introduced 'induction' and imperfect data into systems, and we have largely escaped the issue you note.

Here's a fun video on machine learning.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lu56xVlZ40M

But lets talk at the level of the theory as well. If you recall I labeled four classifications of induction, probability, possibility, plausibility, and irrational. As a quick reminder

Probability-Predicted outcomes based on know limitations. A coin has 50/50 chance of one side on flip.
Possibility- What has happened once is believed to be able to happen again.
Plausibility-A pure untested imagined scenario then is not immediately contradicted by what we know. Maybe aliens exist a billion light years away.
Irrational - A belief that what is applicably known is wrong. 1+1=2, but I believe its really 3.

While plausibility and irrational beliefs are looked down upon in established systems, they are invaluable in discovering new systems of thought.

Plausibility is fairly obvious, as its essentially imagination and hypothesis. But irrationality is also incredibly useful in some circumstances. To break out of local maximum, sometimes you have to do something against the grain that everyone thinks is impossible.

In the life of a human, I can think of at least one example where irrational beliefs are useful. There may be times when one can no longer come up with plausible explorations. But an irrational exploration is essentially poking at the already establish system. Its a stress test of sorts. It can find holes in logic no one realized. You can't have the majority of your population being irrational, but having a few is useful.

And this leads to the next part that you may find more interesting. How a society tackles induction.

In general we have one algorithm run a program, and alter it slightly. It evolves from its previous data, and seeks a solution to it. But after a point it eliminates other explorations. What if we had multiple ai's running separately and tweaked the amount of 'inductive' decisions they made?

For example

AI 1: 100% logical decisions
AI 2: 98% logical, 1% probable decisions, 1% possible decisions.
AI 3: 96% logical, 1% probable, 1% possible, 1% irrational decisions.

It would be interesting to see where each AI ended up. Especially if we duplicated this experiment millions of times with the same AIs, and even different variations.

I view humanity as a whole as the biological variant of this experiment. We have potentially millions of humans looking at a problem with different levels of emphasis on deduction vs induction. The difference is we have more of an emphasis on the induction part then the logical decisions. That's because human intelligence is optimized for efficiency, and pure logical and verified deductive thought takes the most time out of all approaches.

So where do I fall? The reality is that we have a propensity to favor inductions, and at the lower end of the hierarchy in a lot of our thinking. We are emotional beings with bias, and our nature is to rationalize what gives us what we want while tending to disregard that which does not.

https://www.universityofcalifornia.edu/news/when-it-comes-politics-youre-not-rational-you-think
“What we find is both sides are equally biased in their own direction,” Ditto said.

People are savvy at spotting bias in other people’s arguments, but they consistently fail to recognize bias in themselves."

As such, I try to use the hierarchy myself. I first favor strong facts and conclusions. Probabilities and possibilities are strong contenders. I try to avoid plausibilities as conclusions, only as possible avenues of exploration. And I constantly question if I'm wrong. Typically when I come up with an idea, I explore it, but then I try to disprove it myself. It wasn't easy at first, and it can still be tough when you have an idea you really like, but that habit is invaluable to cultivate. I work on not sinking into the trap of arrogance or hubris, and keep myself grounded that I am no better than any other human being. I try to listen to anyone no matter how new or inexperienced they might seem as insight can be found anywhere. As you noted, we all have a propensity for a local maximum, and it can be anyone who can break us out of it.

That being said, I'm still human. No matter how brilliant any human is, their intelligence was designed in the petri dish of evolution, not for optimal conclusive thinking. This is why I believe AI can be the next advancement of the human race. If we can get over our own biases, we can have something think inefficiently with massive amounts of electricity that can work at a logical level we can only dream of.

Anyway, a bit of my thoughts. Let me know what you think.

I mean we all have places we come from and thoughts we start at, but if you walk into the chemistry department and start talking alchemy someone might correct you. — Moliere

This is not a forum exclusive to collegiates, this is a general public forum. I have no issue with being corrected or told new things. While he may have responded well to you, he jumped into a conversation I was having with another poster without context, and when I asked him to clarify his issue he came across as dismissive. I encourage you not to do the same and jump into another conversation between two people.

We did have a conversation earlier though right? You asked my take on the barbershop paradox, and asked my clarification on what I meant by this being a language issue. Did you have any follow up on that?

If the long reply made you feel better, that's fine. You can't argue against how you come across to other people on a forum. Hopefully we'll have a better encounter in another thread. Good luck in explaining your side, I do agree with it.

For what its worth, I think you're running into a mismatch between most people's general sense of seeing -> as a strict conditional. Perhaps in your field or life 'material conditional' is a common phrase, but for most people who use logic, this is never introduced. For them, its almost always seen as a strict conditional. Remember that this forum is populated by all types of people, and most of them are not logicians or philosophers themselves. Explaining and contrasting a strict conditional vs a material conditional should make the issue clear for most people.

I gave you the best advice anyone could ever give you regarding this subject: Look at a textbook. — TonesInDeepFreeze

You do me or no one else favors here. We're having a discussion, and if you want to make a point, link or note your point. "Look at a textbook" is dismissive and means you're removing yourself from the conversation.

Your attitude is hostile and condescending
— Philosophim

Actually, you insulted me. I hadn't written anything "hostile" or "condescending" but then insultingly you wrote:

Don't be a troll.
— Philosophim — TonesInDeepFreeze

Like this?

Then give your proof.
— Leontiskos

Are you serious? You don't know how to prove it yourself? — TonesInDeepFreeze

Not exactly the model of a sage and wise poster. You came on here with a chip on your shoulder to everyone. I gave you a chance to have a good conversation, but I didn't see a change in your attitude.

You misunderstand. You said that '->' means 'necessarily leads to'. And that is false. — TonesInDeepFreeze

If I'm clearly using it as a strict conditional, as I noted in prior posts as I was talking to someone other than yourself, then I'm correct. Now if you had an issue with my use of -> or wanted to teach me the difference between a modal and material implication, something I did not know before today, you could have spent less then a minute citing a wiki post somewhere like Banno did. Instead, we have wasted time back and forth and your attitude didn't win you respect today.

This is not a place where we should banter back and forth for our egos. Its about spreading knowledge and wisdom with one another with good discussions. You seem to have knowledge, which is wonderful. Share it and teach. You'll earn respect. Don't bare it and preach. You'll get eyes rolled at you.

↪Philosophim Wiki might suffice to show you the difference between material implication and strict implication. That might be what you have in mind.

Tones is correct. — Banno

If he is using the term of implication to mean, "could lead to", then that's fine. I've already written on that on the first page. I did not catch that 'material' conditional was anything different from the modal operator.

It is not trolling to point out an incorrect statement, and it not trolling nor handwaving to suggest that one can look in textbooks to see that the statement is incorrect. — TonesInDeepFreeze

Your attitude is hostile and condescending without backing up your claim clearly. I had no idea that there was a specific logical term called a material conditional. You spoke so tersely and dismissively, I didn't take your reply seriously. Give detail and respect, and it will be given back by good people.

I will state again, you misunderstood what I was stating earlier. I'm replying to someone specifically in which I covered both types of meanings of the words 'imply', as the OP did not specify what they meant. One where "Imply" means "necessary" and one where imply means "Could lead to".

I already noted in the second case that A could lead to B and A could lead to not B are not contradictions. But they are contradictions in the sense of using the word 'implication' as necessary. Or to use Banno's link if we are going to use formal logical terminology, 'material conditional' vs a 'modal operator'.

↪Philosophim

Look in any textbook on symbolic logic. — TonesInDeepFreeze

If you're not going to bother answering like I did, I'm going to hand wave you away. Don't be a troll. Show it.

So what?

'->' is ordinarily regarded as standing for material implication that does not require necessity. — TonesInDeepFreeze

Please demonstrate your claim.

https://people.cs.rutgers.edu/~elgammal/classes/cs205/implication.pdf

"Different forms for implications
p implies q is equivalent to
If p then q
q if p
q whenever p
q when p
q follows from p
p is sufficient for q
a sufficient condition for q is p
q is necessary for p
a necessary condition for p is q"

A -> B. But that's not imply. that's "Necessarily leads to."
— Philosophim

Wrong. Material implication does not require necessity. — TonesInDeepFreeze

You misunderstand. A -> B is not implication as we may use it in English. In other words, "It being cloudy implies that it will rain soon," is not the same as "It being cloudy necessarily means that it will rain soon. Yes, in logic, its called an "implication", but in standard English its equivalent to "Necessitates". That notation is If A, then B. Or if A, necessarily B. Its not, If A, maybe B.

Thus, if one plugs the word 'necessitate' in, its clear that A necessitates B and A necessitates not B contradict each other.

What I see some people doing is declaring A -> A or B, which is perfectly fine. But that is not the same as stating A -> B, (which means it will only lead to B) then in the next statement A -> !B (A will lead only to not B).

I’m not afraid of death, and to give me advice on living and dying is quite condescending as if I don’t understand what’s important. I guess I need advice since I don’t think about such things (ha-ha). You probably mean well, so I don’t take offense. — Sam26

I did not mean it to be condescending. I am a person who has learned over time that you can never assume anything about other people. So I talk to them as if they don't know things, not as a means to insult, but to provide opportunity in case they don't. I am glad you understand how valuable life is. :)

I find it curious that some people think that people who believe there is an afterlife are somehow afraid that their existence is coming to an end, so we grasp at straws (beliefs) to comfort ourselves. — Sam26

Some people think this. Not all. When having a conversation with a stranger, to me its about trying to find the most value out of a conversation. If I know you know the value of life, then I will never mention it again. But if you don't and its not addressed? What good is it to inform a person that there is no afterlife if they don't value the life they live today?

We do not have tone or body language while communicating. All we have is text, and of course our interpretation of that other person's intentions. I have tried to be clear that while I do not believe the argument for consciousness existing post death has any credence, I do not have any issue with YOU.
You've taken the time to present an argument fairly, you've been polite for a conversation that conflicts with our world view, and you've replied to many of my points. These forums should never be an insult or ego fest, but a place where we can talk seriously and truthfully with one another.

The psychological reasons/causes for what we all believe are very strong, often overriding what’s logical. — Sam26

Correct. And I am not an exception to this rule. I too was raised Christian, but through questioning and having honest conversations with many other people, I found that it wasn't viable.

The only thing that matters to me is the evidence or good reasons that support my argument, not some fear of ceasing to exist, fear of hell, or some other fear. — Sam26

Finally, your epistemology relies too heavily on the power of science to explain, as if epistemological considerations of science are paramount to knowing something is the case. However, much of what we know is through everyday testimonial evidence, which is why I think this argument is so powerful. — Sam26

I have formal training in philosophy, I have written many of my own approaches to philosophical problems, and have continued to dabble as a hobby all my life. I was both a math teacher, and now program for a living. My point is that I have a long period of training in life in logical thinking.

Now, I also am aware that it doesn't mean a thing. Its the arguments that stand. You strike me as a thinker in earlier stages of development. This is not an insult to your intelligence. Good thinking for most people takes training. It takes years of work. You can never be satisfied, and I seek to improve in little ways every day.

One problem I see is that you are still stuck on how to correctly use inductive thinking. If you re-read, that's really my focus. Inductive thinking is by definition, not necessarily true. So even the best of inductive arguments is not considered a sound argument, but a supposition, or conjecture at best.
Considering there are several competing conjectures that your inductive argument must address and overcome, its not in a good position.

Second, you're assuming the argument that I'm trying to make instead of really understanding it. I want to re-emphasize again, that I am not questioning whether people experience NDE's or OBEs. If you re-read, you seem to want to re-argue their realness when I've already long accepted that they're real. My point is that a personal experience does not mean strong or conclusive evidence about objective reality.

That's pretty obvious if you take any other scenario besides NDEs. I've dreamt that I've flown before, and its been found in at least one study that 1/3rd of recipients have dreamed of flying. https://slate.com/human-interest/2016/11/dream-flying-says-something-about-how-you-think.html

Now, does that mean that when we dream our consciousness actually travels to another realm where we can fly? No. Its just a common brain activity while we sleep. Personal experience is not evidence of objective reality. Personal experience is out interpretation of objective reality. And just because we interpret reality a certain way, it does not mean it is a certain way. Ever seen an optical illusion? That's our interpretation ability going overdrive, the illusion is not actually happening in reality apart from ourselves.

My emphasis is not on 'science', but deduction and objective testing. Science is a good go to, because articles are peer reviewed. Meaning they must hold to high standards from the rest of the community, and are always open to having their research examined and questioned. We want to believe in the power of induction and personal experience, and while it can be useful in many instances, it also has many known flaws.

So your argument has several problems it needs to solve. How do you reconcile the fact that we can duplicate NDEs in neurology and oxygen deprivation scenarios? How do you reconcile the fact that no OBE has ever been shown to see something that was placed outside of their bodies field of view during the time in which the NDE should be occurring? There are real problems that if not solved, cut the inductive argument that consciousness survives our death into pieces.

So, feel free to try to answer those. If you can, awesome. But not answering those and insisting your inductive argument trumps all others logically isn't true. The current and most logical conclusion we can make with the information we know of today is that consciousness is a function of the brain, and when the brain dies, your consciousness dies as well. Feel free to keep trying to prove it wrong, but you have a lot of work to still do.

↪Philosophim What does "simply a language issue" mean? — Moliere

Often times in logic or arguments, the solution is clear. What often happens is we use language with poor definitions. Thus people make assumptions or conclusions that the user of the unclear language didn't intend, or the user themself is doing the same.

Notice how he used the word 'imply' and people immediately thought, Oh A -> B. But that's not imply. that's "Necessarily leads to." And its obvious that if A -> B, that A -> !B is a contradiction if you use the correct definition. "Imply" is vague enough that some thought 'necessarily', while others thought 'maybe'. And because you can get halfway there with the word, some might even thing A ->B means only sometimes.

I think, at least in philosophy though maybe there's some other argument this stems from that I'm not aware of, that we should separate out implication from modality -- so when you introduce "possibility" and "necessity" those are entirely different operators from implication. — Moliere

This is simply a language issue. What does 'impliciation' mean? That's why I went over all the different possibilities. In the end implication must mean necessary or not necessary, in which case the answer will be different.

↪Philosophim What do you think of this?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barbershop_paradox — flannel jesus

It was a bit of headox with a sentence like this:

"If Carr is out, then we know this: "If Allen is out, then Brown is in", because there has to be someone in "to mind the shop." Ugh.

So cleaning this up we get this:

They explain that there are three barbers who live and work in the shop—Allen, Brown, and Carr—and some or all of them may be in. We are given two pieces of information from which to draw conclusions. Firstly, the shop is definitely open, so at least one of the barbers must be in. Secondly, Allen is said to be very nervous, so that he never leaves the shop unless Brown goes with him.

So, we have A, B, and C

One must always be in.

If A is out, B is out
Therefore C is in

If B is out, A can be in, as B can leave the shop.
If A is out, B is also out, so C is in

So our combos are as follows:

1. C !A !B
2. !C A B
3. C A !B
4. !C A !B
5. C A B

"Suppose that Carr is out. We will show that this assumption produces a contradiction. If Carr is out, then we know this: "If Allen is out, then Brown is in", because there has to be someone in "to mind the shop." But, we also know that whenever Allen goes out he takes Brown with him, so as a general rule, "If Allen is out, then Brown is out". The two statements we have arrived at are incompatible, because if Allen is out then Brown cannot be both In (according to one) and Out (according to the other). There is a contradiction. So we must abandon our hypothesis that Carr is Out, and conclude that Carr must be in."

This doesn't make any sense. Clearly B can be out and A be in. Clearly C could be out and A and B, or A be in. I don't get it.

We have to be careful by what is meant by 'implies' In logic, the word, necessarily is used more often in these examples. "Necessarily leads to B" So if you have A -> B and A -> !B, that is a contradiction.

Now, if you want to use English instead of logic, we can also examine that.

Lets use the word 'implies" which for many means, "could" or "not necessarily".

In which case A could, or could not lead to B. In other words, you're describing an induction. We cannot use A -> B here either, as that's not what it means. Once we had the result of the induction, there are two results we can conclude.

A always leads to (outcome) or
A sometimes leads to (outcome)

This can be determined through testing. For example, if I flip a coin, it sometimes comes out heads, and sometimes comes out tails. This can be written in logic as "Some A's lead to Bs, and some A's lead to not B's"

If of course The question was whether a coin always spins when flipped, we would see it would flip every time. In this case after the test it would be A -> B.

Does that answer your question?

However, most do happen in life-threatening situations. That said, most of the time when I refer to death I’m referring to clinical death, viz, when a doctor would pronounce someone dead. — Sam26

This is very important. Actual recorded death is not near death. Near death experiences cannot be used as an example for consciousness existing outside of the brain, as the brain would still be alive.

It’s the experience itself, the claim that people have had an OBE, and their experiences while having an OBE. This is the central point of my argument. It’s what people see during their NDE that supports their belief that they had an OBE — Sam26

I am not questioning that people have an out of body experience. The question is whether this out of body experience can be pinpointed at happening at the exact time of brain death, and that it is not merely a vivid dream of consciousness. Not near death, but during brain death. As I've noted, there have been no cases of brain death and NDE time.

What constitutes an NDE are certain common characteristics laid out in the Greyson scale in the following link: https://www.researchgate.net/publication/271857657_The_Near-Death_Experience_Scale (Citation: Greyson, B. (2007). The near-death experience as a focus of clinical attention. The Journal of Nervous and Mental Disease, 195(10), 883-890.) — Sam26

I genuinely appreciate the literature. But I don't think you're understanding what I'm stating again. I'm not denying NDE's happen. No one with even a little bit of medical understanding does. What I'm denying is that they are any proof of consciousness actually leaving the body. As I noted with my last two links, NDE's can be replicated medically by brain stimulation and temporary oxygen deprivation. In no case has there been a confirmation of someone actually seeing their body. A very easy test is once the patient is unconscious, a person places some object or writing behind them where their eyes cannot see. If the person is actually having a real out of body experience, they'll see it. No out of body experience has ever been able to accurately report this.

The question is, “Do you understand my points?” If people are having these experiences, i.e., they are veridical, then my conclusion follows based on the numbers, variety, and truth of testimonials (corroborative evidence and consistency of reports). — Sam26

You can just use the word 'true' instead of veridical, that's fine. No, your conclusion does not follow from NDE's being real. You have to demonstrate the NDE's happen on brain death, that out of body experiences are able to accurately report the way the room was at brain death, and that NDE's cannot be replicated by temporary oxygen deprivation that has little risk of death, or can't be duplicated by stimulating the brain. All of these demonstrate that this is a brain function, not consciousness leaving the brain and coming back in.

Have you ever had a vivid dream before? I ask, because some people don't. A vivid dream can feel incredibly real. I have sometimes come out of dreams thinking that I was in another world. Of course, I wasn't. You have to understand that your brain simulates everything. The light entering your eyes is not vision. The brains interpretation of it and construction is. I can envision things when I shut my eyes and have vivid daydreams. My consciousness is not leaving my brain, its just an aspect of the brain.

Unless you’re simply saying that the experiences are real but not veridical. — Sam26

No, the subjective experience is real. There is no objective demonstration that a person has actually left their body and seen the room as it is changed away from their bodies eyes. There is no objective confirmation that someone's OBE happened during brain death. Just like when I had a vivid dream of fighting a gorilla and woke up, my consciousness did not travel to another dimension where I fought an actual gorilla.

The paper you cited doesn’t take into account much of the research that has been done and oversimplifies the NDE research. As I said, I’ve been studying these accounts for many years and have read many of the counterarguments, most try to explain the memory reports in very dubious ways, which I and many others have found wanting. — Sam26

Feel free to cite some counters then. This is too generic for me and I'll need more details please. Your experience and whether things are wanting are irrelevant, just like my opinions on the matter are irrelevant. Cite facts and studies that demonstrate why or why not NDEs are valid/invalid.

To argue that my argument doesn’t “…logically lead to [my] conclusion…” you have to demonstrate that the premises aren’t true, and you’ve failed miserably at that. — Sam26

No, I don't. You've already done that for me. You're already stated you're using an inductive argument, which by definition, is not true. Its a prediction, or supposition. To have a viable inductive argument, you need to demonstrate why it overrides facts that counter your induction, or demonstrate why its more rational than other competing inductive arguments that have competing or contrasting conclusions with yours.

I have not denied NDE's exist. I've demonstrated that they are not evidence of consciousness surviving the body due to the fact that no OBE's can be objectively confirmed with tests, and we can simulate NDE's at lower levels of trauma with neurology and oxygen deprivation. Not to mention the mounds of medical research that demonstrate you are your brain. Neuroscience, psychadelics, psychiatrics, and even numerous cases of brain trauma have all demonstrated this.

Another important point is the nature of consciousness itself, i.e., can consciousness be explained by simply appealing to brain functions? The answer for me at least, and for many other scientists and philosophers, is no — Sam26

For scientists, this is incorrect. "You are your brain," is the only reasonable scientific conclusion with what we know. People test and hypothesize that there is more, but none of these have borne fruit. A hypothesis is not a scientific conclusion. As for philosophers, yes. You can find a philosopher that will believe almost anything. The question is whether they can give a reasonable argument for their beliefs.

Lets address Chalmers. Yes, I'm very familiar with him.

In Nagel’s 1974 paper, What Is It Like to Be a Bat Nagel also explores subjective experiences and the nature of consciousness. He concludes that consciousness has an irreducible aspect, and I agree based on my studies which go beyond what I’ve given in this thread. He further concludes that the physicalist approach to consciousness is not sufficient to address our subjective experiences and that we need a fundamentally new approach to concepts and methods. — Sam26

Two points:

1. There has been nearly a lifetime of brain research since he published his 1974 paper. We barely had basic computers back then. We have made immense strides. Research neuroscience, not philosophy.

2. You misinterpret what he means by "the physicalist approach to consciousness is not sufficient". Chalmers to this date does not deny that the brain is where consciousness comes from. What he's noting is that our study of the brain in particular to date, cannot be used as a model to explain the subjective experience. Let me explain further.

How you subjectively experience the world, and how a bat subjectively experiences the world are obviously different. Lets say that we further science to the point where we are able to perfectly replicate a bat's brain, and your brain. Can we still be the bat? No. Can we still be you? No. We would ask your brain, "How are you feeling?" and simulated neurons 44-100 would light up. Does that tell us what its like to be the experience itself of neurons 44-100 lighting up? No.

Lets say we objectively knock out the consciousness of your simulated brain by stimulating neurons 1-10. And we can do it every time. Objectively, you're unconscious. But what does it feel like subjectively? We'll never know. Its impossible to be the thing we're studying. That's what Chalmer's nailed. He did not deny in any way that consciousness is not generated from your brain.

The fact we can never objectively know what its like to be a subjective conscious is the hard problem. The idea that consciousness comes from your brain is the easy problem. People confuse this all the time and think that there some rational notion that we are not our brains. It has been confirmed that we are our brains for some time now, and if an inductive argument is going to challenge that, it has a lot more that it needs to tackle then what you've provide.

Although this post doesn’t address every question or challenge it gives more information to support my conclusions and raises other considerations. — Sam26

I may disagree with you, but I appreciate the write up and the citations.

Bob tries to follow Alice, but he has to guess which Earth she teleported to. What are Bob's chances of getting it right? — RogueAI

Bob's chances of getting it right are 1 out of infinity.

Is there any way for a teleporter machine to randomly select an Earth out of an infinite number of them in a finite amount of time, or is there always going to be, practically speaking, only a finite amount of Earths for Alice to teleport to because of the limitations of the machine? — RogueAI

Its your thought experiment, that's a limitation you decide.

What if I cheat and say the teleporter pokes a hole into the universe and the universe somehow, through a mysterious process, randomly picks an Earth out of an infinitely large ensemble for Alice to teleport to? Are Bob's chances of teleporting to Alice's world zero? — RogueAI

1 out of infinity still.

This was particularly amusing considering two years ago I was nominated for teacher of the year at my site for the first time. — RogueAI

Yes, due to age and experience. And again, you didn't win. My mother makes six figures and is often praised for her work. Both myself and my sister despise her because she's a mess in her personal life, and we don't call her after 5 o'clock. She too thinks her drinking is fine despite downing near a bottle of wine every night. She is not.

I also didn't say, "Productive at your job." I meant productive in general, in your life.

Notice to how you're not presenting contrary science or facts, but personal emotional anecdotes? That's rationalizing what you do, not being rational about what you do. What's more important? Emotionally confirming that you're ok and it does nothing wrong to you, or finding out the actual facts?

Thus again, you are a slave to your emotions. Because every fact about alcoholics shows that you are hurting yourself, diminished as an individual, and will likely gain comorbidities several years earlier. Just like smokers who think they're fine.

And yes, everyone I know is addicted to something: booze, food, painkillers, porn, weed, Facebook, smoking, sex, gambling, shopping, etc. — RogueAI

No. There is a difference between passing moderate enjoyment and addiction. Four drinks a day is in no way moderate.

A rational person would easily see that alcoholism is only detrimental to the individual. Only an emotional person would even try to argue otherwise without any science behind it. Not that I expect my words will get through. Rational arguments don't work against people who are slaves to their emotions. Its why you can rarely reason someone away from religion. Less intelligent people rely on their emotions more, and alcoholism also diminishes intelligence. So it becomes a trap that usually only a great and horrible event can overcome, and even then many fail.

Good luck RogueAI. I'm sure you'll rationalize that you're perfectly fine, never knowing how much greater you could have been.

I keep it at four drinks a day. My body seems to have handled that pretty well over the decades. Vital signs were good at last checkup. If I was really becoming as self-centered as you claim, I think it would have bled into my marriage or career, but those are going well too. — RogueAI

Rationalizations, but not rational arguments. You've likely diminished your intelligence, so have a lower awareness. That impacts your personal interactions more than you think. You're certainly less productive. Your biological age is also worse off. meaning you will not only die sooner, but start to suffer age related effects several years earlier.

https://www.ox.ac.uk/news/2022-07-26-genetic-study-provides-evidence-alcohol-accelerates-biological-aging

Alcoholism is a slow poison that diminishes who you are as a person a few braincells at a time. If you could chart your diminished personality and intelligence over the years, you would likely panic. But because you don't see it daily, like a frog being boiled in a pot, you're cooking yourself without seeing it.

The problem with being dumber, is you often don't realize it. As your awareness diminishes, you sink ever more into habit, certainties, and have less room for new and interesting things in your life. I've grown up around alcoholics all of my life, and have seen recoveries. By all the science and facts, you are only causing harm to yourself. But because you emotionally like it, you keep doing it and will look for rationalizations to continue. Therefore, you are a slave to your emotions. Especially the part about, "Everyone is addicted to something." No, they aren't.

Every alcoholic thinks they're doing fine. Every single one of them is wrong. Every alcoholic thinks they're special. None of them are.

I agree with all that except the alcoholic part. I've been an alcoholic for 30 years, but I'm not (I don't think) a slave to my emotions. — RogueAI

Isn't that an emotional response? Rationally you know alcohol causes long term bodily and brain damage. The brain damage is especially at the emotional level. There is no benefit besides emotional satisfaction at the expense of your body. So yes, you are a slave to your emotions. My father was a former alcoholic, and has seen people sober vs in it deep. You change, even when you're not drinking right then. And its always, without exception, for the worst for everyone around you. You become so self-centered that you don't recognize it or dismiss anything that would get you to stop.

I agree we're in an oligarchy in practice, but that's what the voters want. Every two years, we have the option of throwing all the bums out in the House, but we never do. Even in "wave" years, the vast majority of House members are reelected. The tools are there to radically change the system, and if young people ever get politically active and turn out en masse... but that's a pipe dream. — RogueAI

But why do the voters want those people? There are a few reasons.

1. News organizations are owned by people with wealthy interests. So subjects are most often about manipulating the population for things a few wealthy people want, and not the subjects that most people would really want if it were blared in their face everyday.

2. In a democracy, the emotional, the tribal, and short term self-interested thinkers outweigh rational, long term people who take the time to think about the big picture. Since the news does not do its job of presenting long term rational thinking to viewers, these people are extremely easy to manipulate.

My mother is an example of this. She's an alcoholic, so basically a slave to her emotions. She's hooked to Fox News and "Selfish outrage" shows like a drug. She craves the idea that her hard work is being invalidated by lesser beings, so that's why we have to cut federal programs. Of course its all a sham by wealthy people to pay less taxes and have less reign on their ambitions. But she's too enamored with the group social outrage and "I'm better than them" mentality she keeps getting sold.

The ideal of a Democracy is that the people who live in an area vote their self-interest. The reality after things get too big, is we need honest messaging to show people what the real problems and solutions are. The reality is that because we let the wealthy have a monopoly on main stream messaging, its not honest. So all the little people are the soldiers between a few wealthy people's vision for the country.

How could we be a failed democracy with free and fair elections every two years? Do you see that going away? — RogueAI

A democracy is not about the illusion of representation. As I cited a little above:

https://www.bbc.com/news/blogs-echochambers-27074746

"A proposed policy change with low support among economically elite Americans (one-out-of-five in favour) is adopted only about 18% of the time," they write, "while a proposed change with high support (four-out-of-five in favour) is adopted about 45% of the time."

Your vote actually doesn't count for that much. If the wealthy want it, great. If not, it'll probably never happen.

Arguably, while we do elect our officials, the stream of information and who ultimately selects the candidates we vote on makes the USA more like an oligarchy.

https://www.bbc.com/news/blogs-echochambers-27074746

"A proposed policy change with low support among economically elite Americans (one-out-of-five in favour) is adopted only about 18% of the time," they write, "while a proposed change with high support (four-out-of-five in favour) is adopted about 45% of the time."

"Americans do enjoy many features central to democratic governance, such as regular elections, freedom of speech and association and a widespread (if still contested) franchise. But we believe that if policymaking is dominated by powerful business organisations and a small number of affluent Americans, then America's claims to being a democratic society are seriously threatened."

So, your conclusion that I'm avoiding you and don't have answers to your posts is incorrect. There's nothing that you've posted that's difficult to answer, and much of what you've posted shows a lack of understanding of the subject of NDEs, even the paper you posted can be addressed, although it would take more time. — Sam26

If they are not difficult to answer, simply answer them.

First, I've given the criteria of a good inductive argument, and based on those criteria the inductive conclusion is overwhelmingly reasonable. — Sam26

And about my notes that you have several other competing inductive arguments out there that contradict and invalidate yours? I never said you didn't make an inductive argument. I demonstrated it doesn't rise above other more reasonable inductive arguments.

I don't know about you, but if someone tells me that they see X during their experience and it's corroborated by doctors, nurses, staff, and family members, then that's a veridical experience. You can keep denying what millions of people are saying because you're entrenched in a materialistic worldview, but it won't change the facts. — Sam26

Are you understanding my points? I never denied people don't have these experiences. I denied that they logically lead to a conclusion that there was life after death, both rationally, and do not hold inductively when compared to other stronger inductive arguments that show our consciousness does not live on after death.

Your responses demonstrate that you haven't studied these experiences, and your responses clearly show that. — Sam26

I have, and your conclusions about them do not hold water. They are fun, but do not lead to the conclusion that there is life after death when competing with other inductive arguments that demonstrate we do not. You are only looking at one side, and have not given me evidence of any other.

Again, I'm not aware of NDEs that don't generally confirm an OBE, so I don't know what you're referring to. — Sam26

I noted my Aunt had a near death experience during surgery. She felt like she was being tortured by demons. We didn't call up the NDE people to report it. She died a few weeks later btw. She's gone forever.

Here's an article on NDEs that aren't so nice. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6173534/
But I haven't heard you mention anything like these. Either you've cherry picked, haven't looked hard enough.

How about the studies in which they tested people's experiences by causing them to enter into unconsciousness and similar situations?

https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/what-near-death-experiences-reveal-about-the-brain/

"Scientists have videotaped, analyzed and dissected the loss and subsequent recovery of consciousness in highly trained individuals—U.S. test pilots and NASA astronauts in centrifuges during the cold war (recall the scene in the 2018 movie First Man of a stoic Neil Armstrong, played by Ryan Gosling, being spun in a multiaxis trainer until he passes out). At around five times the force of gravity, the cardiovascular system stops delivering blood to the brain, and the pilot faints. About 10 to 20 seconds after these large g-forces cease, consciousness returns, accompanied by a comparable interval of confusion and disorientation (subjects in these tests are obviously very fit and pride themselves on their self-control).

The range of phenomena these men recount may amount to “NDE lite”—tunnel vision and bright lights; a feeling of awakening from sleep, including partial or complete paralysis; a sense of peaceful floating; out-of-body experiences; sensations of pleasure and even euphoria; and short but intense dreams, often involving conversations with family members, that remain vivid to them many years afterward. These intensely felt experiences, triggered by a specific physical insult, typically do not have any religious character (perhaps because participants knew ahead of time that they would be stressed until they fainted)."

Or

"Many neurologists have noted similarities between NDEs and the effects of a class of epileptic events known as complex partial seizures. "

"More than 150 years later neurosurgeons are able to induce such ecstatic feelings by electrically stimulating part of the cortex called the insula in epileptic patients who have electrodes implanted in their brain. This procedure can help locate the origin of the seizures for possible surgical removal. Patients report bliss, enhanced well-being, and heightened self-awareness or perception of the external world. Exciting the gray matter elsewhere can trigger out-of-body experiences or visual hallucinations. This brute link between abnormal activity patterns—whether induced by the spontaneous disease process or controlled by a surgeon’s electrode—and subjective experience provides support for a biological, not spiritual, origin. The same is likely to be true for NDEs."

What seems strange to me is that you seem to ignore so many other studies and peer-reviewed material, which at least acknowledges that many of these questions are open to many scientists (open for them, not for me). — Sam26

Who?

Sorry I can't respond to everything or everybody, I just don't have the energy nor the inclination — Sam26

It sounds like you don't have a lot of time left. I've been harsh on the subject material, but not on you.
You may not see it as a gift, but really, it is. You will die. I will die. And that will be it. So don't waste your time. Fill it with family, friends, loved ones. Explore, fulfill your last curiosities, and do the things you've always wanted to do. Because after its over, its done. That's why we come here. To really think about things and sift the lies, illusions, and artificial hopes from reality. A life lived real is a really lived life. Good luck and enjoy your time.

By definition. Death is the end of living. There should be no debate. — ENOAH

Yes. I understand the sentiment to want there to be life after death. But that sentiment can be dangerous to those who spend their life looking for its truth. Even if there is some afterlife, which is by all rational evaluation impossible, it is best to live this life as if there is no continuation after. You only get one shot at this life with who you are. Don't waste it on fantasies.

I was a little surprised to find you had not addressed my response to you. I linked you a nice article and addressed your points. To ignore someone who does this and repeat what you spoke about earlier is avoidance, and an indicator that you don't have the answers to the previous points.

But if you'll sum up your points, I'll sum up why they don't work again.

My view of epistemology is that there are several ways of acquiring knowledge that aren’t dependent on a scientific approach (experimentation, data collection, and peer-reviewed papers). — Sam26

True. This is induction. And there are ways to evaluate whether some inductions are more cogent than other inductions.

he three epistemological elements of my argument include logic, sensory experience, and testimonial evidence. These three ways of acquiring knowledge are sufficient in themselves to make a reasonable conclusion that consciousness survives death. — Sam26

No, they are not.

1. Logic indicates you are making an induction, not a reasonable conclusion. Logic also indicates per the article that I linked, that the existence of NDE's does not mean that there was evidence of actual death at the time the person had the vision/dream.

2. Sensory experience has been disproven by the fact people can sink in and out of consciousness in anesthesia, and it has not been conclusively pin pointed when exactly a person had a NDE. It is not that NDE's do not happen, its that there's no indicator they are actual experiences after brain death. To conclude there is consciousness after death, one must have an example of consciousness after actual death and a return to life.

3. You only conclude a bias of testimonial evidence. You do not include the majority of cases in which people do not have NDE's when in similar near death experiences. You do not include the nightmares, or the visions of things that do not exist. You cherry pick nice and positive experiences then say, "They're all like that." They are all not. When taken as a whole, NDE's are very much like dreams and minimal conscious processing.

I’m not claiming that our knowledge in this case is known with absolute certainty, just as most of our knowledge isn’t known with absolute certainty. I’m claiming that the evidence is known with a high degree of certainty. — Sam26

Incorrect. The problem is your ignore all the counter inductions that have higher cogency. How do you explain that the majority do not have NDEs? How do you explain the NDEs that don't fit in with family and friends? Or the massive evidence that the brain is your mind, and that without the brain, there is no mind? You take a one sided biased approach and cut out any competing material, and of course it seems reasonable. That's not rational or a strong inductive argument. That's a desire you're trying to rationalize.

This objective component also dispels the notion that the experience is a hallucination, delusion, dream, lack of oxygen, etc. — Sam26

Not in the least. You have had opinions, but this is flat out wrong. In no way have these been ruled out and are strong competing inductions.

And to think that someone can point to some brain activity to show that it’s the brain that creates consciousness is similar to pointing to a component in a radio to show that what you’re listening to is confined to the radio. It doesn't follow. — Sam26

Then how do we artificially put people in comas? Or use anesthesia? Or demonstrate how alcohol poisoning can cause a person to black out? Or the fact that we have never seen consciousness in any form other than a brain?

Another important point is that many of the people who have NDEs report that their experience is not diminished, which is what you might expect with a brain that isn’t getting enough oxygen or blood, in fact, it is heightened. By heightened I mean their sensory experiences are much sharper, they see colors that they haven’t seen before, and their vision is reported to be expanded (360-degree vision) in many cases. — Sam26

You don't have senses when you are unconscious. Your brain takes sensory data and interprets it. Seeing colors you haven't experienced before is not unexpected when your brain is going into survival mode and trying to interpret what is happening. You can't see in 360 degrees, but your brain can envision it.

In short, you have an inductive argument, but it has serious flaws. It also does no better than competing inductive arguments which to my mind, have far less flaws. You have a self-confidence in your argument, but self-confidence and a feeling that it is right, does not make it right. You need to look at the counters and find some answers to those. Otherwise, you're just peddling a fantasy, and no one wants to be that person.

Only if we make it so. — Banno

This.

And by what criterion do we ‘go against ourselves?’ What higher motive intervenes against ‘emotion’ except another emotion? Let’s say I derive pleasure from playing video games all day. Then I decide it is getting in the way of my accomplishing more important goals. In both instances, the pleasure motivates my actions. — Joshs

This can be due to an emotional conflict. But for me, its a rational conflict. Playing games is a form of relaxation and entertainment. It doesn't actually assist the world in any way, make me wealthier, or more successful in actual life.

When it occurs to me that I could be using my time better elsewhere, this is motived by the potentially greater pleasure associated with those other activities. — Joshs

Then you are merely a pleasure seeking animal. This is not rational thinking.

Emotion here goes hand in hand with intellectual development. Why should we want to be reasonable unless knowledge were intrinsically rewarding? Why would knowledge change our mind about anything, causing us to ‘go against ourselves’, unless reason were its own reward? — Joshs

Because while reason can be its own reward, that again, is just a pleasure seeking creature. You are, once again, trying to elevate emotion to the level of rationality so you can justify your own emotional satisfaction. This is a completely normal rationalization response.

What you should be doing is put yourself in a position where the emotion to waste your time is stronger than your emotion to be productive when you need to be productive. When it takes all the willpower you have to drag yourself away and do something you would rather not be doing. When for the next hour, all you want to do is give up and go back to what you were doing.

If you can successfully do things that are rationally needed despite your emotional affectations towards them, then you are being a strong, rational human being. If you know you should be doing something more productive, but you can't pull yourself away from your own emotions, you are a weak rational human being. And if you just follow your emotions without thinking, you're a weak and stupid human being (not as an insult, just a description).

Emotional thinking craves that standard for itself. It hates that it isn't at that level.
— Philosophim
I think you're attributing a separate consciousness and thought process to feelings. There is no 'emotional thinking', but emotions do prompt thought and affect the thought process. And only one emotion can hate - and that one doesn't require a great deal of reasoning. — Vera Mont

I'm trying to speak in the language context they're using. The point is that there is a human tendency to argue for what we want over what is correct. A consistent strategy that people are drawn to is to try to elevate one's own emotional desires as somehow equal with rationality. Then we can do whatever we feel like and argue that we're "being smart in our own way."

Never underestimate the human tendency, which is in both you and I, to argue for one's own unearned excellence, sloth, greed, and emotional self-interest.

Emotions are snap judgements with what we perceive at the time, and nothing more.
— Philosophim
They're not judgments at all; they're primitive mental responses to sensory input from the environment and the body. It takes reason to name and describe them. — Vera Mont

I have no disagreements with this take. If you want to define judgement in the cerebral sense that's fine by me. A quick digest of a situation is probably a more accurate term.

Would you be amenable to the idea that it is just as a convenience that we separate affective and rational aspects
of thought into district categories? — Joshs

No. Its a clear difference in approach and thought. Everyone knows that 'rationality' is the gold standard. Emotional thinking craves that standard for itself. It hates that it isn't at that level. But if it could convince everyone it is, then there's no stopping it.

What if we just treated the rational and the affective , the hedonic and the cognitive, as two inseparable components of all thinking? — Joshs

They are separable because even basic living creatures have emotional thinking. There is a clear separation between the two.

At every turn in a rational argument the aim we are driving toward acts as a guide and criterion for what constitutes the correctness and relevance of our thinking. — Joshs

Again, this is rationalizing. If you're reasoning to obtain the satisfaction of a certain emotional desire, you're going to reject anything that goes against that emotional desire as 'wrong'. This is why emotion is not a good guide for rationality. To be rational, we must often go against ourselves.

I know this won’t convince you, but I wanted to counter your comment with Robert Solomon’s view of emotion: — Joshs

This isn't a very good counter, because it doesn't address what I said.

“I didn’t mean it; I didn’t know what I was doing. I acted without thinking;

I said people rationalize their emotions. That requires thinking, intention, etc. I also said emotions are an impetus to act, they are not thoughts themselves. One can act without any further thought, after rationalizing, or being rational. Emotions do not preclude thought.

“I was emotionally upset”; that is the touchstone of a cop-out plea of momentary insanity.

I never said emotions removed agency. I never said following emotions is something you can't control. Of course you have (most of the time) have agency when you follow your emotions. Saying you don't is an excuse. We are talking about mentally able adults of course.

Nothing you have ever done has been more rational, better conceived, more direct from the pit of your feelings, or better directed toward the target. That momentary outburst of emotion was the burning focus of all that means most to you, all that has grown up with you, even if much of it was unacknowledged.

Right. Emotions are an impetus. They planned around fulfilling that impetus. That's not rationality. That's wanting to emotionally fulfil a desire and planning to do it.

And yet we hear, “emotions are irrational”—virtually a platitude.

Emotions are neither rational or irrational. Your actions are rational or irrational. Acting on emotion alone if you have time to think first is often times irrational. Acting on emotion after thinking about what outcomes will result, and putting the value of emotional fulfillment as a secondary concern, is rational.

The emotions are said to be stupid, unsophisticated, childish, if not utterly infantile, primitive, or animalistic—relics from our primal past and perverse and barbaric origins.

No, I never said this. Impetus is incredibly important for those who have not developed rational minds. Without impetus or some rational guide, you cannot do anything. Emotion is incredibly useful in accomplishing things in life. But emotion is a motivator, not thinking itself.

Emotions, I have argued elsewhere,1 are judgments, intentional and intelligent. Emotions, therefore may be said to be rational in precisely the same sense in which all judgments may said to be rational; they require an advanced degree of conceptual sophistication, including a conception of self and at least some ability in abstraction.

Emotions are digests of a particular situation that want an expected outcome. They are inductive snap judgements, and some people have a more accurate emotional capacity for induction then others. But it is a quick digest, not the careful examination and thinking rationality entails.

In this sense, we may well talk of the “logic” of the emotions, a logic that may at times be quite difficult to follow but a logic which is, nevertheless, never merely an emotion’s own.

No, this is just another person trying to justify fulfilling their emotions and elevating them in importance as something approaching rational thought. It is not. Emotions are snap judgements with what we perceive at the time, and nothing more.

Are either of you familiar with the affective turn in the social sciences and philosophy that took place a few decades ago (Antonio Damasio’s work is one exemplification of it)? The gist of it is that emotion is the cradle within which rationality rests. It is what gives the rational its coherence, intelligibility and relevance. Without emotion rationality becomes dysfunctional and useless. — Joshs

If fully disagree with this assessment. Emotion is the aspect of impetus and motivation. Rationality is an evaluation of if we should, and how we should act if we should. This is through my own personal experience. I have many deadened and addictive tendency emotions. If I listened to my emotions, I would likely be homeless or dead at this point in my life. Its not that I don't have them, but they do not make the decisions, I do.

What matters in life are outcomes. I might feel bad and not want to work, but I go in anyway. I may not care that someone is doing poorly in life, but I know that reaching out can make things better. I could kill somebody and likely not feel any guilt or remorse. But what good would that do?

Emotions are for children and animals. They are guides and impulses for doing, not thinking. Rationality is contemplative. It considers all sides. It looks for outcomes. Then you have to decide if you want to act on that rational outcome, or your emotion.

The impetus from a young age is to rationalize acting upon emotions you feel. Rationalizing is inventing and coming up with ideas that 'back up' the emotional outcome you want. Being rational often times directly challenges your emotions, and thus the natural inclination of people from a young age is not to be rational, but to rationalize.

As you get older, hopefully you have people who teach you that being rational results in better outcomes. Sometimes outcomes align with our emotions, but many times they do not. That's a major difference between stupid and intelligent people. Stupid or ignorant people invent all sorts of rationalizing to justify fulfilling their strongest emotions like sex, love, hate, "I do what I want and its moral", etc. The reason why you can't tell a stupid person that they're stupid, is because they're enraptured by their own emotions. So they'll get angry and blame you. They'll come up with 'reasons' to justify their emotions. They'll say, "I don't feel stupid," then rationalize why.

Intelligent people can be called stupid, and analyze it. They might feel angry, but perhaps the other person has a point. They swallow their pride and realize, "You know what, I was stupid there. Time to correct it," despite feeling shame or embarrassment about it.

That being said, emotions still propel us. Especially early on when we're not rational. But as we improve in life and build ourselves up to lose rationalizing and become more rational, emotions matter less and less. But the seat of rationality itself? No. Just impulse.

No, actually. It was an unfortunate choice of the critical word in the OP: I failed to consider all the ways it might be interpreted. Entirely my fault.
What I asked was not how the potential suicide himself ought to consider the issue, but whether you consider anyreasons for suicide to be rational - as distinct from moral or legal. — Vera Mont

Ah, no worry! Numbers 2 and 3 are my reasons then. Feel free to comment further or end the conversation then. I don't think you had any issue with what I considered rationally viable, only in how to approach it.

I have done that. Real people, in pain and fear, cannot be unemotional about their situation. Rule 1. bites the dust at the diagnosis of cancer or the repossession of someone's house. — Vera Mont

The topic was how to rationally approach suicide. I didn't state you wouldn't be emotional. I stated don't make decisions due to emotion. That's irrational. Saying, "People can't be rational," is not a counter to point 1, but an emotional denial. Whether or not a person chooses to be rational is in their power. But if you are going to be rational, you cannot make your choice by emotion.

That being said, these are decisions you really cannot make on your own, and need other rational people to analyze the situation with you. If you don't want to tell anyone that you're thinking of doing it for example, then you shouldn't do it.
— Philosophim
That is the most difficult piece of advice, and I have told you why, several times. Other people are also emotional. They can't turn it off just because you tell them to. — Vera Mont

Difficult to follow doesn't mean 'irrational'. I've noted you find people who care about you, and consult several people. I've noted that despite there being other people that you may encounter who will not be rational, assuming they won't is irrational as well. A solo mind is weak and vulnerable, and a monumental decision to end one's life should not be made alone.

Your fear that others around you will not be rational is emotional. Rationally, you should be approaching terms of suicide ahead of emotionally turbulent times. As I noted earlier, my parents have already discussed with me end of life procedures. If you come to a point that doesn't meet those parameters and want to end your life, that's a sign its emotional and you need to reach out to others.

Sometimes even people who have discussed end-of-life care go back on their promises when the death of a parent or spouse is imminent. — Vera Mont

This is always a possibility when trust is involved. That is a risk you have to take, and once again, why you involve multiple people to handle if one goes rogue. That's part of being rational about it. Saying, "Everyone might not follow what I ask and everyone is going to be irrational," is an irrational emotional reaction.

Many family members and friends, if you tell them you're contemplating suicide, go ballistic, get religious and righteous on your ass, plead and cry and maunder on about the sanctity of life, then confiscate your meds and have you put in a locked ward, where you are deprived of all means of ending your own pain: you no longer have a choice, freedom or autonomy. I know this from having witnessed it. (One patient was so desperate, she stuffed her bedsheet down her throat.) — Vera Mont

I assume we're talking adults here. Children do not have the right to suicide period. Their brains are underdeveloped and do not have full rational capacity yet. If you're an adult, no one can do this to you. Further, I noted that rational reasons for suicide are excessive resource use both time and monetarily, or excessive crippling over time and being kept alive by machines. More people agree with this rationale than you think. If you're not in one of these cases and wanting to commit suicide, then you are being irrational. If they cannot reason with you when you're being irrational, then monitoring you until you get over your emotional turmoil is the smart thing to do.

I'm not really hearing any rational counter argument here, just emotional ones. And the emotions generally are, "But I WANT to commit suicide. I don't want to tell other people because I'm afraid they'll stop me." That's emotional, not rational. The rational way to approach suicide is this. "I want to commit suicide. I better consult other people I trust who care about me to make sure I'm not being crazy." There is always risk in involving other people, but avoiding other people is a tried tactic of, "I want to do what I want, and I'm afraid other people will talk me out of it because deep down...I know its probably not right." Again, an emotional avoidant tactic, not a rational approach.

That is what I have been attempting to do. Your rules apply in some cases, but do not cover many of the likely scenarios that real people in the real world have to face. — Vera Mont

Explain how your scenarios explicitly are not covered by the three points I posted. You have not done that.

Show me you're thinking about the discussion instead of peppering me with questions you haven't tried to solve on your own first.
— Philosophim
I have solved them for myself. — Vera Mont

Then please explain. I do not know your personal conclusions and how they contrast with the three points I made unless you state it.

Point is, they're not random. They are all too real and too common. — Vera Mont

Its not that the scenarios are random, its that you're randomly putting them in as questions after the fact or a previous discussion without bothering to address why they do not fit the three points I made.

Apply what I've noted to your scenarios, then point out why they do not work.
— Philosophim
Did that, too. I've been in your perspective, but that was a long time ago. — Vera Mont

No, I have yet to see you say, "X doesn't work with point 1 because..." or anything of that nature.

You keep stating the same thing over and over. I didn't ignore it; I pointed out where it doesn't apply. — Vera Mont

No, you stated a new scenario as a question without regards to the points made.

Sure, it would be nice to think everyone can contemplate their own debility, suffering and death unemotionally, and that everyone has many friends and relatives, all available for consultation, all able to assess the situation and think clearly. — Vera Mont

Your question was essentially "How do we rationally consider suicide?" I noted to find other people who care about you, and consult more than one. That doesn't have to be family or friends as I've already stated. So your point is irrelevant. This is why I keep asking you to think about what's been said prior to posting. Lets focus the conversation a bit more and think, "What if someone is contemplating suicide at this moment and needs some rational steps to consider?"