I also see The Bible as a starting point for thinking about religious questions, and think that it is basis for deeper analysis, rather than clear answers. I have read some of the writings in the Gnostic gospels, and some of the ideas of Elaine Pagels. I think that it is helpful for making sense of the symbolic nature of the world described in the Gospels. Of course, some of these writings were excluded from the Bible, but I am sure that this was interconnected with the political dimensions of the early Church.

I do believe that the symbolic nature of religious experience is central to understanding of The Bible and Christianity. I also have a strong interest in Jung, and he was extremely interested in the ideas of the Gnostic writers.

I really was opening this discussion with a view to looking at it from various angles, ranging from the Christian to the Marxist and any other angles. I am glad that you mentioned the Koran as well, because I do believe in approaching religion from the various viewpoints. Strangely, there does not seem to be much from an Islamic view on this forum, and this may be related to who decides to become part of a philosophy forum.

I am just rather puzzled how, in many discussions about the existence of God, or atheism, discussion of The Bible does not seem to play a large part. The reason why I am so surprised is because in my own experience of talking to people in real life, views about The Bible seem to be central to thinking about these issues.

Of course, it is possible to not mention The Bible, and I am sure that it is not essential to philosophy. But, I do think that it is hovering in the background, with people coming from specific interpretations of all aspects ranging from ideas about what really happened to the body of Christ and the resurrection, to ideas about the afterlife and any end of the world scenario.

But, even though I am bringing in the Bible, I don't come with any specific agenda, and I do think that it is possible to approach The Bible like any work of literature or texts like 'The Tao de Ching'. But, I am aware that others may not see it that way, and, sometimes, mention of the Bible can in itself appear loaded, because of the whole complicated role of the Bible in history.

I think that The Bible can be a rich source, but I do think that it is so extremely difficult to interpret. Yes, I think it is important to bear in mind the particular intended authors and the purposes of specific texts. I have not read much theology at all, but have downloaded one book on contextual theology. This seems wider than some others and I do have an interest in comparative religion, as well as the ideas of religion developed by William James and Carl Jung.

I think that the Bible can be used to back up so many ideas, and can also be used in a negative way, and for specific political ideologies. I can see the basis of Freud and Marx's critiques. I am familiar with many fundamentalist Christians who spend so much time reading The Bible, and who think that philosophy is a waste of time. I prefer reading philosophy, but do believe that it is worth thinking about the Bible within the broadest context of thinking that the underlying problems of philosophy. I really wrote the thread because there is such debate about theism, atheism and life after death on the forum, and I am sure that the Bible is relevant on some level to such discussion.

I agree with looking at the Bible beyond the Christian viewpoint. Most definitely, it is important to be aware of Judaism and varying aspects of this tradition, ranging from ideas in the Torah and the more mystical aspects of thought, such as the Kabbalah. I believe that the ideas of the OT are probably derived from various traditions, including the Greek and Egyptian.

My own thinking is based on the starting point of having been raised as a Roman Catholic. Therefore, I was raised with specific interpretations of the Bible, especially a belief in the doctrine of the Trinity, the Virgin Birth and the idea of transubstantiation, which means the literal and not symbolic transformation of the communion wafer and wine into the body and blood of Christ.

However, I have questioned the Catholic beliefs and those of Christianity. I don't really come from a fixed position, and I am interested in the various approaches to the Bible, and how they connect with the philosophy of religion.

In thinking of comparing the Bible with other perspectives we have to begin from the way in which the Bible has been the starting point for Christianity as a worldview, and the many different traditions, ranging from Roman Catholicism, Protestantism,the Church of England, Methodism, and far more divergent ones, including the Quakers and the Mormons. The most literalist interpretations can be seen as the fundamentalist ones.

I certainly believe in understanding the historical contexts of beliefs, ranging from the earliest times of Christianity, the understanding of the philosophies of God developed by Augustine, Kierkergaard, and Kant, to the many aspects of thinking about religion in the twentieth first century. I don't believe that any person's thinking takes place in a cultural vacuum.

I think that you are correct to say that it is unlikely that truth was a mathematical aspect. I would be interested to hear more about how you think that an existential understanding fits into the picture here. I think that it is important to be aware of the fusion between ideas in the development of Christianity, as in the way in which Augustine and Aquinas interpreted the Bible but with reference to the Greek ideas, especially Plato and Aristotle.

I think that there is a fundamentalism which tries to interpret the ideas of the Bible as if it can be understood as a newspaper account. I think that this is not helpful at all, and any interpretation has to take into account the difference in the overall worldview of the authors in the Bible. They lived with a belief in the world being flat and with no knowledge of Darwin's ideas. Also, another aspect which I think is useful to consider is the tension between the esoteric and exoteric traditions.

I do agree with you that the literalist interpretations of the Bible are the most unhelpful. I think that many people from religious backgrounds would agree with you. There is a whole spectrum of possibilities. For example, the question of Jonah being in the belly of the whale, and the 'facts' of the Gospels.

It is unlikely that the Gospels were written soon after the death of Christ, and the authorship of the these is uncertain. It does seem that Paul had a very big role in the development of the Christian church, so I am sure that this came into play. Also, it is likely that the early Church was expecting a potential end of the world. In some ways, the 'Book of Revelation' can be understood in that context. There was an ongoing attempt to try to equate 666 with an actual person, and it seems to me that the beast may be symbolic. But, all these aspects of thoughts have been apparent behind the scenes of history and literature, including the thinking of Dante, John Milton and William Blake.

Thanks for your link on the hermaneutical interpretation, which points to different ways in which the Bible can be approached. Of course, it does appear that the source is a Christian one. That is extremely useful though, and I do believe that some of the analysis is still applicable even if the Bible is interpreted outside of the Christian viewpoint.

I originally thought about this yesterday, and mentioned it in a thread which has been closed. I have been reading 'Dawkins, Dennett, Hitchens, Harris: The Four Horsemen(The Discussion That Sparked An Atheist Revolution, 2019), in which Harris points to The Bible as being one 'epistemological gold standard.' So, this lead me to wonder where the Bible lies in the entire debate about theism, atheism and other religious questions central to philosophy. Many consider the existence of God, in terms of proof or lack of proof. However, it can become too abstract and I do believe that the Bible, and, how we interpret it must be relevant. But, I am also aware that The Bible is a very long book, but it has had such a large role in the shaping of culture and philosophy that I do believe that it is worth thinking about.

That sounds good, and it is not as if the answers to the question have to be overnight, because philosophers and others have spent a long time thinking about it all.

I think that the question of God's existence, and the debate between theism and atheism is central to philosophy. It is not about winning or losing , or any of our shortcomings as individuals, and will go on long after you or I, and Amen discuss the matter. So, I think that it is worth looking at the arguments with disregard to any of our past as present faults as human beings. It is a philosophy question and area for debate of central importance.

One aspect which I think is important is that the gospels and other writings of the New Testament were written many years after the time of Jesus's death. I don't believe that we can really sidestep the Bible in connection with Christianity, or any religious texts when thinking about any specific religious viewpoints. Surely, beliefs about God were given a voice through these works.

I don't see how we can really look into characters fully in discussions on the forum, because we don't know know much about other people's lives at all. We are really only able to discuss ideas.

I am reading 'Dawkins, Dennett, Harris, Hitchens: The Four Horsemen (The Discussion that Sparked an Atheist Revolution, 2019). One idea which I will raise for your area of debate, if relevant, is that of how we consider religious texts. Harris queries the nature of texts as being an 'epistemological gold standard'. He asks,
'If the Bible isn't a magical book, Christianity evaporates. If the Qur'an isn't a magic, Islam evaporates. And when you look at the books and ask yourself, "Is there the slightest shred of evidence that this is a product of omniscience?'

I believe that the nature of religious texts is important to understanding about truth and religious claims. It can be argued that any careful consideration of theism or atheism needs to take this on board as an aspect of the debate about the existence of God. What do you think about this, in relation to the logic of theism or atheism?

I accidentally knocked my phone, sending my reply through before I finished it. But, I managed to edit and finish it afterwards, as above. I also wish to add that I do believe that we need to 'earn' or find our own ideas for ourselves, but I am not sure that everyone does. I would imagine that educational systems are so variable in giving people the foundation for being able to think for themselves.

I think that the question of socialism vs brainwashing is extremely complex, and I do see your point about being brought up to be tolerant as a form of brainwashing in itself. I am not sure that I was actually brought up to tolerant as such, because my parents were homophobic and I am bisexual. I was also expecting and agreed to be confirmed as a Roman Catholic at age 11, which meant that I was accepting it as a lifetime faith, and that was many years before I had even begun to question religious beliefs at all.

I wonder if anyone is ever taught to be open minded, or whether it happens by default. I also believe that it is extremely complex because we live in such a diverse society. As it happens I have not brought any children into the world, but if I had, I really don't know what I would teach them in order to enable them to think as freely as possible. I am sure that I would give them a wide perspective on religion, science and knowledge. However, I would probably have to be careful in order not to indoctrinate them to be politically correct. Thank goodness that I have no children to worry about, as it is hard enough sorting out my own ideas

I was brought up with religious beliefs, and had friends who were not religious when I was a child, so I was able to reflect on it when I was about 10 or 11. However, what I do think is that brainwashing involves so many other aspects of ideas. I was aware as a child of others who were racist and had very narrow political views, based on their family background, and I believe that was every bit as strong as any religious set of ideas or values.

So many cannot question the beliefs that they have been taught, and, strangely, I think that my parents taught me critical thinking skills as well as religious ideas. I do think that it is brainwashing when people are taught a certain set of ideas or values in such a way that they are so restricted in being able to see outside of that set of values. It is as if one picture of reality is delivered with some kind of hypnotic power.

Generally, my own view is that shifts in religious views and other ones is that they do fluctuate according to needs, personal and social. I know that my own questioning of what I had been taught was when those beliefs become unworkable for me.

What I was surprised about was how so many people I know who are from Africa adopted the Christian beliefs which had been delivered to them by missionaries. I had been of the view that Western people had gone to Third World nations, and 'sold' a particular view of reality to these people. However, generally, when I have said this to people I know who are from Africa they disagree with me completely, with only one or two of them seeing any connection between religion and politics.

I think that we speak of being in a secular age on this forum, but I would be surprised if that many people in society would describe it that way. Most people who I know who are not religious tend to just say that they are 'lapsed' or don't have a religion. However, I am sure that it is hard to generalise about people's beliefs, but in the last few years, I have found that most people I know have some religious beliefs, Christian or Muslim. I have been surprised to meet so many people who attend religious services. I really wonder if there is much available information to suggest whether we are in a secular age, and how this is even measured.

I couldn't see any feminist approach to Iris's comments and she didn't really make any arguments. She just kept saying that transgender people offended her sense of being a woman, and she just kept writing repetitive posts, and not taking on board anyone else's point of view at all. If she had not been banned I wonder if she would still be writing on the thread right now.

Also, even before she launched onto the particular thread, she was writing so many comments on other thread discussions, just as a couple of others who got banned recently were doing.

I think that it is so easy to get trapped in our own personal dramas and see them as concrete realities. I think that this applies at all ages, and self awareness is so variable. I believe that some people are so much more psychologically minded than others. It does seem that we all vary so much and some people find it hard for accept this. For example, they insist that their music taste is the ultimate, just like arguing for a certain set of beliefs. I do believe that the understanding of subjectivity is very different from adherence to relativism.

It does seem that for many people ideas such as those in the sciences, especially physics, are treated in almost the same way as previous religious ideas. People may not always understand the logistics of evolution or quantum physics, but they may be filled with awe, or even be mystified by them. But, the worldviews arising from science are so different from the religious ones. I remember how I was brought up with religious beliefs, and many others I went to primary school were not, and it did seem like their underlying reality was different to the one which I inhabited. Beliefs and ideas shape our experiences of reality in such a powerful way.

I believe that it was that kind of philosophy which created a negative image of philosophy, even among academics. It has taken the ideas of many other disciplines to bring philosophy back to life, and even now analytic philosophy probably casts a haunting and daunting shadow.

Thanks for your reply, and I plan to read further, possibly Pierce and others. I am not sure that art is meant to be 'accurate' copying or representation. I am not sure that is even possible. It would probably defeat the purpose of art. I do wonder if the artist is fully able to follow intention fully, because the artist does not have a complete understanding of the intersubjective realities of the audience.

Thank goodness. She was extremely determined in expressing her views.

I believe that the issues we are discussing are so complex. Beyond the issues of seeing what is going on in the news critically, I believe in opposing injustice and oppression. The oppression and injustice does require people to make a stand but dangers of political conflict, and nuclear threats make the conflicts even more ominous. It all feels like such a dangerous juggling act.

I know people who were born in China, and it is on that basis that I wonder about the slant of the media. Of course, I am not wishing to overlook any injustices of China or any nation. But, I do think that we have to consider the way in which America, and England, has tried to gain domination.

The war on terrorism involved America having control of the Middle East, and I believe that we are now moving into the possibility of power over China. Of course, it is easy to see oppression in other nations, but I think that an underlying aspect behind the scenes of politics, and manufactured news, is the fight for oil, which is running out rapidly.

I am a little unsure of your topic. I can see that it can appear that we are in a culture of seeing the point of view of minorities. Also, looking at prejudice and discrimination it probably is so much deeper. I am sure that many people, including philosophers had prejudices, and it is extremely complex, because these are probably deep rooted. I am aware that wokism is seen as a problem, but, how do we find the right balance between wokism and tolerance of all prejudices?

I believe that stagnation was a factor in cultural decay. If anything, we could argue that we have the exact opposite with so much conflict, but will it have the power to stop culture collapsing if civilisation was thrown into poverty. I think that your question is interesting, but wonder how it fits into the questions of our times, including climate change and the upheavals of the pandemic. I think that we are in extraordinary times, and the exploration of satisfaction and stagnation has to be viewed in the context of the extraordinary.

I think that your question raises the question of what particular 'being' know itself through us? Is it some transcendent reality, or our own individual experiences of being? We can ask what is being, and I believe that it has been answered in so many different ways by various thinkers from so many different ages, traditions and perspectives.

I think that advertising affects us on a subliminal level, but not just in terms of specific products, but with a whole set of values about what is desirable. It is about having the 'perfect' body, and home, lifestyle and a whole underlying rhetoric of consumer materialism. Adverts are extremely entertaining, and appear so often to those who watch television. I am not someone who watches much television at all, but I am sure that many people do, and, for this reason, adverts are a hidden subtext, affecting what people expect and seek in life.

I have just read your thread discussion. I am wondering if you are criticising the underlying ethic of consumer based systems of economics. It is bound up with value systems, and there have been critiques of such values, such as that offered by E F Schumacher, who looked at other alternatives, including smaller community based ways of living. I find these alternatives to be interesting, but it is not always that easy to translate into practice. However, I do believe that it is worth thinking about the values and ethics underlying mainstream economics.

I don't think that teaching people to be happy works, even with the help of psychotherapy interventions. If you go down that line of thinking, you might as well argue that people should only be taught how to be happy rather than being offered antidepressant medications. I believe that people may benefit from cosmetic interventions but may need psychotherapeutic interventions as well. It does not have to be one or the other, and individuals probably need guidance and support in looking at all available options.

I believe that is a rather shallow understanding of cosmetic surgery. My own experience of knowing people who have had many forms of cosmetic surgery, including gender reassignment, is that it can enable them to feel more at ease with themselves. Of course, some forms of treatment are more successful than others, and some may be less satisfied with the results, but why criticise people who choose to have interventions to help them to feel happier? Surely, they should be encouraged not criticised.

I think that your point about your wife killing herself because she felt unable to be a 'woman' because she felt unable to give birth to children is important. We live in a society in which ideals about the body are ranked as important. I think that on this site, the focus is often upon transgender people, and overlooks how many other people feel uncomfortable with aspects of their bodies, and how they measure up to ideals and about masculinity and femininity, as well as other ideals. Gender dysphoria is only one aspect of misery over bodily appearance and sex changes are only one form, among many other aspects, of bodily modification.

I have only glanced at the book on Pierce's philosophy, but have been thinking about the question of eqireality in relation to a book which I have just finished, 'Investigations Into the Phenomenonology and the Ontologogy of the Work of Art'(ed Bundgaard and Stjernfelt), which focuses on the way in which reality and representations are an experience of the perceived and the artist. I think that this way of thinking about the external world does raise the question of a singular actuality. Subjective aesthetics plays such a critical role of perception, to the where we can query the underlying objective one.

Photography is not really looked at in the book, but we can wonder about whether photographs are the most accurate forms of visual art. I don't think that the answer is clearcut because photography is an art in itself, involving framing, focus, background detail and lighting. However, in some ways it is used as a general reliable information, like in passport photos to confirm identity of a person.

One aspect which I wonder about in the experience of reality is the role of mood. That is because I believe that it does affect the whole interpretation of reality. I believe that it affects perception and understanding in various ways.

I do still plan to read Pierce and look at the wider question of metaphysics, but I do believe that the phenomenological interpretation of reality, including art, is extremely important in understanding the notion of a shared reality.

I have thought about your idea, and what I think is that logic is extremely important, but, on the other hand, if feeling and intuition are left out, any philosophy will be rather inadequate. Perhaps, the twilight vision will ensure that the heat of the sunlight does not burn these aspects of truth to the point where they are overlooked completely.

I think that the fast paced 'go getting' nature of culture contributes to depression, because we are often put into a position where meeting of goals is emphasised. Also, we are subject to standards and images in the media and online, which can lead people to compare themselves and often feel rather inadequate. I am not saying that any of these factors can be overcome, and development of personal goals is important for empowerment and self esteem.

I also believe that a lot of people do feel depressed on account of suffering they come across and about the state of the world. There is the issue of clinical depression, but it is a whole spectrum ranging from sadness to depression which affect the ability to function, and often requires medical interventions. Depression can be clinical, but to some extent sadness and melancholy are 'normal' aspects of the panorama of human emotions.

I think that all the categories are applicable but moral decisions involve such a complex interplay of these. We live in social contexts in which the norms vary, but we also make moral decisions individually. There is a subjective aspect, but also objective measures, involving the use of reason.Moral choices can be extremely difficult sometimes involving balancing so many different, often conflicting variables.

I think that the link you provide is extremely useful, because it gives clear information. I believe if people wish to understand the topic it is worth looking at this link for clarity.

I can see the problem which you identify with the lack of logic. I like the "Madfool's thread, but we do have to be careful that we don't overthrow the path of reason, because we need it to help us make sense of so much in life. We can cope with a bit of twilight, but if it gets too dark, we will need a torch, or some candles, to try and make some way forward, or else we may stumble and fall.

I will think about it in the light of day( and perhaps again in the twilight).