I think that reflection is extremely important, because many people don't really question assumptions. I am sure that many of the philosophers were extremely reflective. However, I have found more on the topic of reflection in books outside of philosophy, such as ones on critical thinking. Also, I am familiar with an author, Gillian Bolton, who looks at reflective writing as a practice. However, I think that you are correct to point to the importance of reflection on ideas, and I see this as an essential aspect of philosophy.

I think that your thread topic is a good one, viewing beliefs according to how they work for people. An individual's beliefs can contribute to wellbeing, or be detrimental, and I am sure that this is true on a social level too. It also leads me to think about the cognitive behavioral therapy approach, in which people are enabled to examine the underlying assumptions which they have in daily life.

The example of narcissism is useful, and the links to the articles too. I had not come across much research on the way in which narcissism can be beneficial. However, that is because I have read mainly on the psychodynamic perspective, especially in relation to people diagnosed with borderline personality disorder. They are usually experience narcissism in a way which attacks their sense of identity and wellbeing, rather than gaining strength from it. I would imagine that the reason why the focus has been upon the negative side of narcissism has been because those who struggle with the potential problems arising from it is are the ones who come to attention within psychiatry. However, I think that there are so many people who are rather grandiose, and the only problem which I see with this is they can be overpowering towards others who have less self esteem.

Your approach is almost utilitarianism brought to the philosophy of beliefs. Thinking about other examples, I think that an interesting contrasting example to narcissism is belief in God, because for so many people that worked. But, that is not to say that it hasn't caused problems for many people, or social problems.
But, the reason why I am thinking about this example, is connected to your previous thread on narration.

I will explain what I mean. If you think about the religious person, their inner narrative is often in dialogue with a personal God In contrast to this, as many do not have religious beliefs, inner dialogue is often in connection with significant others and people in general. So, in that way, a sense of self is often based on others' opinions and the social construction of identity.

From what you say, it seems as if you had an extremely difficult time and it was probably a good thing that you took a break from pursuing long dreams. It is important to keep dreaming within balance and I believe that it should be able to help in life, rather than have be as so you describe as 'scary'.

I do agree that there do appear to be different levels, or even dimensions in dream reality. I think that experiences vary as well, because I have heard of people who only dream in black and white, or are unsure if there are any colours in their dreams. I can frequently remember vivid colours in my dreams. However, I am not sure if I ever experience the sensations of smell or taste in my dreams at all. I know that I talk in my sleep because I have been told that I do. I don't think that I have ever sleepwalked, but I have heard of people who do. I know that I throw my duvet all over the place and I think that I have ended up waking up on the floor on a few occasions. But, I am sure that we all vary so much.

I believe that you are correct to point to the way in which dreams affect us. I can certainly say that I have days which are under a cloud on account of a strong dream. While I am sometimes relieved on waking up from a bad dream, to realise it was a dream, I definitely experience ones which do disturb me.

One aspect of this is I am sometimes disturbed not by the actual events in the dream but my own actions in the dream. I do things and have thoughts which I am ashamed of. I wonder if morality is a bit different in dreams. I am conscious of certain thoughts which I have in dreams and often these recur, and I have to realise that these are ones which I try to push out of my waking consciousness.

I think that the experiences within dreams also are learning experiences. As we are not confined to time and space within dream reality we can have all sorts of adventure and misadventures beyond our immediate life circumstances. I do wonder if part of the purpose of dreams is to enable us to gain experience without having to wait until experiences manifest. We can experience so much in a very short period of time. I have sometimes had a a whole series of dreams, and feel that I have been asleep for many hours and discover that I have only been sleeping for about an hour. In giving us these lessons dream consciousness is like a teacher. It is also cumulative and I think that some dreams must be important when we get recurring dreams.

You are quite right to say that the difference between a person and an animal having dreams is that the person will try to interpret dreams whereas the animal won't. We don't really know that much about animals' minds, but I wonder if they are able to differentiate between waking reality and dreams at all.

It is true that we look for meanings, and even meanings behind meanings. It may be that we analyse too much, but it does seem that our minds are seeking explanations for almost everything, and if we can't truly find these we almost try to force them.

I do think that language does limit our understanding of dreams, as it does of the waking world. But, I think that this is especially true of dreams because they have a way of going beyond logic. For example, I sometimes find that I am with one person and they change into another person within the dream.

I believe that the paintings of the surrealist capture certain aspects of the dream world. I have one significant dream experience which I would really like to paint or draw. But, it is difficult to draw the contents of the dream because you can't keep it still enough to sketch. But, I do plan still plan to make a piece of art based on the dream.

But, I do think dreams can be likened to forms of art. I don't watch many movies but I am sure that they could be compared to them. I think that they can be inspiration for the arts. But, definitely, they are so different from the literal, even though I do believe that even too much of waking life can be interpreted too literally as well.

Thanks for your reply. I hadn't really given up on the thread but, spent most of the afternoon unable to get into the site, and it's a hot day. I am interested in your response because I am wishing to think about dreams in a systematic way. It did seem that the thread began going into the a bit of a 'woo woo' direction and I struggle with balancing those sort of philosophies with critical analysis.Perhaps, I will write a thread on that at some point.

I have read Jung's ideas on synchronicity and I do think time comes into the picture. I realise that the idea of synchronicity is not one of causality, and I see it more as being about patterns. I do believe that precognitive experiences in dreams and in waking life involve patterns and being able to tune into patterns. I know that I have experienced premonitions and I had to work out that they were not causally related.

One minor synchronicity, in relation to what we are discussing in this post, is that on Friday, I saw a book on synchronicity, and I am not even sure who the author was. I didn't buy it, but decided to go back and buy it yesterday but it was gone. Earlier this afternoon, I was feeling rather irritable about that because I saw it as important in connection with this thread, and, now, you have come up with the relevance of the idea of synchronicity.

I definitely think that the idea of 'spooky action at a distance' has some bearing. But, it is so hard to come up with answers which don't sound like complete woo woo gobbledegook. Somehow, it brings me back to an idea which I wrote a thread on a couple of months ago, the idea of the holographic model of reality, and I know that theory mentioned precognitive experiences as being due to patterns reflected in different parts.

I do wonder about time though, and whether it really is linear, although it could be that it is collapsed in dream reality and I believe that JB Priestley said something along that line in his book, 'Man and Time'. Rather than ask whether waking reality is an illusion, we could ask if time is an illusion?

Anyway, I will give the matter some further thought, but finish here as my room is boiling hot and I am a bit stuck in thinking clearly at the moment.

I like to take on board all the different approaches really. I definitely think that the mythic dimension of dreams is extremely important because it is as if we enter the realm of story when we sleep. Also, those stories seem much wider than our individual lives, but I may be following the Jungian approach in saying this.

I have not read much of the symbolic- semiotic structuring approach, but I would think that it possibly includes a more mythic emphasis. Do you think that this is more important than biological aspects of dreaming? One psychoanalyst who I read briefly, was Walter Bion and he thought that certain structuring or organisation of memories was important in being able to get to sleep. I think that this is probably true, because I often have difficulty getting off to sleep and it is about the way thoughts intrude and dominate consciousness. I often feel envious of people who can just put their head down on a pillow and fall asleep straight away.

I agree that there is a danger of experimentation. But, as so much can happen spontaneously, it does seem that a certain amount of development of mastery is likely to help.

I definitely have experiences on the borderline of sleep in which I feel unable to move, and I think it is called sleep paralysis. Often, I have seen very strange entities in such sleep states. I do have positive experiences too. A couple of months ago I was awake, but felt intense heat in my spine, and drifted into a state of being partially asleep and for some time, I saw flashes of white light. It felt like some kind of 'kundalini' awakening, and it felt positive really.

That's an interesting little article. I do think that we do need to forget dreams to some extent, in our waking lives, in order to focus on the tasks of our daily life. Similarly, we do need to forget the tasks of daily life, in dreams, in order to switch off. Dreams can even be seen as a form of diversion or entertainment. I spent a few sessions once, on what was called a dream machine. This involved listening to certain sounds and having images displayed on goggles. It involved the range of the alpha, delta and theta brainwaves, which come into play in states of meditation, and I felt so much more relaxed after the sessions

However, in thinking about waking and dreaming consciousness, it is as if they are two separate, but interrelated lives. They run parallel, and we may even interact with the same people in both. Time within dreams is also interesting, because we can go back. I frequently have dreams in which I am back in sixth form, interacting with friends from that time, and I believe that it was because that was the time when I discovered most of the importance issues and themes which have been central to my life. But, dreams are also interesting in the way we still can regain memories of people from the past, although this is not necessarily something which we can choose by will.

I thought that the idea of the astral body probably goes back to Plato. I came across the idea in theosophy. One interesting argument for the existence of an astral body is the existence of images of it within Kirlian photography. I had my aura photographed once, and it was a mixture of red, pink and orange. The interpretation of the person who photographed it was fairly interesting, considering that she had never met me before.

I have heard that dreams of falling, on the verge of sleep, are connected to going into the astral dimension. I have these frequently and they often jolt me awake.

The idea of one's philosophy being a matter of taste suggests that it is completely subjective, as being a matter of attraction, like taste in music, or what people one is attracted to. It would really involve attitudes, but probably an intuitive leanings towards certain ideas and ideals. In some ways, I am sure that we choose to adopt certain views on the basis of attitudes and what we like or dislike. This is connected with values.

But, if philosophy is only entered into in this way, surely it would be rather shallow, and avoid any real attempt to understand life and the questions of existence. I think that it is important to be aware of personal attitudes and how they play a role. In a way, each person is trying to construct a philosophy to find a way of living meaningfully, so is entitled to choose what to believe. However, if those ideas are to be a serious endeavor to understand, and exchange ideas I believe that it is not worth engaging in if it is just like supporting one's favourite football team or rock band.

One idea about dreaming which I am aware of in some philosophies, especially those in the East, is that of the astral body. This is also linked to the idea of there being an astral plane. I am aware of the idea being open to attack within philosophy, but, in some ways, I think that I find the idea makes sense. Of course, the idea does involve the belief that the astral body is there all the time, and is involved in the emotional life and also comes into play when people get sick .It is closely related to the concept of auras, which some people claim that they can see.

I think that such confusion over whether certain experiences really happened or not does exist in certain states of delirium, such as those involved in alcohol intoxication, psychosis and dementia. There is also what Freud describes as false memory syndrome, but that can be criticised on the basis that it is about someone, such as a psychiatrist trying to tell someone that a certain experiences is simply their imagination.

But, I know some people who do seem unsure of their own memories, and, it does seem that waking life and dreams almost blur together. We can even ask to what extent are we truly 'awake'. Guirjieff and a number of other thinkers thought that most people were living like robots and that the goal should be to become more awake.

I noticed in one of your comments, you say that 'Perhaps dreams aren't really dreams.' and you go on to say that would mean that our waking experience isn't real. If that were the case it could be the basis for the Eastern idea of maya, or the idea of reality as an illusion. Or, alternatively it could even be the basis for the soliptist point of view. Do you have any further thoughts on the matter?

I am wondering if you wish to share a bit about your own precognitive dreams. It doesn't matter if they are mundane, because I am not wishing this thread to become too heavy weather. I believe that my childhood memory of one was when I dreamt that my toy chimpanzee's arm broke and it really did break shortly afterwards. Apart from being upset that Charlie Chimp's arm broke, I can remember saying to my mum, how strange it was that I had the dream beforehand.

As far as I am aware animals dream which does also suggest that animals have a subconscious. We could also say that thinking about dreaming involves wondering about the nature of the subconscious itself.

I am really about to finish writing for tonight as I am not home yet. I certainly didn't see your comment about 'bowel movements' as the end of discussion because I think that you really say so much more. But, I think that is one of the ways in which dreams are seen, and I think that is how many people see philosophy too. But, I really will log out now, because my mum is waiting for my call to know that I am home safely.

Thank you for your response, and I am still logged in. I am certainly not wishing to create a somber thread, which is why I put my responses on hold. I definitely would wish to look beyond my own dreams and include so many other people's experiences. I do believe that the mundane, including boxing matches, are all aspects of trying to see our lives within a larger scheme. But, I am out and about, relying on a mobile signal, but tomorrow, I am hoping that I can work through some unanswered replies because I do believe that dreaming and philosophy can be a useful area of discussion.

I am putting in my final comment for today, and I don't wish for it be heavy weather, because I opened the thread for lively interaction.

I am a bit reserved to talk about dream premonitions in detail, because it goes back to a difficult period in my life, when I had 3 friends commit suicide. I had a variety of premonitions but felt powerless to help my friends, as two of them were not even living near to me. My strongest premonitions included a dream of seeing a broken apart body lying on a pavement, a couple of days before hearing of a friend's death.

However, I won't go into further because this is a thread I only started yesterday. I don't wish for it to become negative and depressing, because that is not my outlook on dreams at all. I may share some more positive experiences later, and apart from the risk of disclosing on line, such disclosure only counts as some kind of empirical evidence, which is only of certain limited value within philosophy discussion.

I am already concerned that the territory which I have explored will make it the 'untouchable' thread. I was hoping that it could become a really upbeat thread, because I see dreaming as being far from doom and gloom. I see it as a creative endeavour. I welcome any further contributions, but if not, I will try to write my outstanding replies tomorrow, and frame them in such a way that they may contribute towards positive, upbeat exploration and I don't wish to write the most miserable thread ever. That is not how I see life or dreams at all.

I am aware that I still have some outstanding replies to write, but I am waiting until tomorrow, to write them, because I want to write with clarity of thought. However, in the meantime, please feel free to discuss and explore the topic. After all, I opened the thread for discussion, and, during today, I have become increasingly aware how the topic is an extremely complex area, but I do believe that it raises many areas of thought, which certainly, in my opinion are at the core of the various philosophical problems.

I will try, but it will be later because I am out and my battery is going to run out. But, I will try to illustrate my point.

Thanks for your contribution and the idea of possible worlds'. However, what I do have to say is that I created this thread last night, and went to bed. When I finally managed to get to sleep I was dreaming about reading and writing on the site. I dreamt that you had started a thread about the idea of delusion. When I woke up and looked at the site, I discovered that you had really created a thread about a blue butterfly and about illusion.

I have been thinking was this is a synchronicity? Or, is it an example of how easy it is to read meanings into patterns? I am not sure...But, I also dreamt that someone, and I won't name the person created a thread called, 'The Way Stories Program Us'. I think that it is unlikely that such a thread will appear, but wouldn't it be strange if it did. Probably, my dream is more a sign that I think too much about this site if I am dreaming about threads which don't even exist. But, as my phone is beside my bed and beeps if I get replies, perhaps it is not surprising that I dream that I am reading and writing on the site.

I think that you are correct to see the way in which we are able to see and construct meanings in dreams. I think that it is so individual and based on life experiences. I have dreams about ideas or discussion of ideas but that says a lot about my own mindset. I think that the extent to which we develop our own dream lives is connected to how important they are to us. It may be that people whose outer lives are more unhappy or empty become more focused on dream experiences.

I think that dreams definitely contain anxiety based on the past. However, they can also contain signs of the future, as many have experienced. But, it is possible that this is more about being able to see patterns beyond the immediate, and it could be that the subconscious is more able to tune into this aspect of experience.

Having just said that I come from a situation of viewing in a general way, I am just aware that you have said something which is controversial because it has come to light how there has been sexual abuse behind closed doors. Obviously, that is an area of debate and controversy, with so many facets, but it is an aside from the topic of dreams. I suppose that the way in which the idea of the suppressed or repressed is relevant to dreams is in the way in which the subconscious works.

But, in a way we may have moved beyond the culture of sexual puritanism. I think that in the age of the pandemic we have moved into an emphasis on cleanliness and being germ free, with hand gel as the new 'holy water', but I don't wish to derail the thread I have started. I am simply saying the dynamics of the subconscious in the life of the individual have probably shifted, and this is likely to have implications for the individual, including the contents of dreams. However, I am wary of all generalisations, especially as it would appear likely that our own subconscious lives are affected by our cultural roots and upbringing.

I think that this is a topic for critical discussion and I don't come with any set agenda, or specific arguments to prove. I think that there is a danger of anyone thinking that they know all the answers. We all have such unique experiences, and I am not merely trying to sit on the fence, or if I am, its for lack of a comfortable chair. As it is, I try to read and look at life, and dreams, from the widest possible lens, or binoculars.

I think that your question as to whether dreams are 'connected to reality' or just 'imagination' is a central question underlying the philosophy, as opposed to psychology, of dreaming. I think that there is probably no absolute answer because there are so many different kinds of dreams. Some seem to be so 'ordinary' and a weird arrangement of the familiar, whereas some seem so profound as if they are beyond the dumping ground. These seem to be connected to the deeper levels of the self knowledge, and have a numinous quality and seem worth remembering. I don't really write down my dreams because those which are significant usually stand out and, I remember them, just like important life events and lessons. Of course, I don't know if this is how others feel about dreams.

Some people don't seem to remember their dreams as much as others and I don't think that there are any clear explanations why. I know that there are times when I don't really remember them and other times when I remember so many that I feel tired just from thinking about them.

It is unclear whether it means one has been asleep but not in REM sleep. I don't think that you should really worry if you don't have dreams to recall, and this may change.I know people who don't think that they dream and it changes. The subconscious may have its own logic.

Thanks for the quote from Nietzsche, and it does seem that he is suggesting that dreams are a way of switching off from the pressures of life, and I think that can definitely be true. Hopefully, the dreams are pleasant, although usually if I have a bad dream I feel so glad to wake up and conclude that it was only a dream.

I think that many people do see dreams as being like 'mental bowel movement'. However, I think that is partly connected to the way Western society has developed, with an emphasis on fast life, fast cars and fast everything. I guess that I am just not part of the 'fast' revolution and more into the more contemplative mode. I think that ancient people, and other cultures, paid far more attention to dreams. Yet, I think that there are plenty of individuals all over the globe who do, but it is probably more of a fringe interest, although certain dreams may sometimes strike people unexpectedly.

I think that you are correct to place an emphasis on the subject who is experiencing a state of consciousness rather than the state itself as the ultimate. From what I have seen a lot of the people have experiences of certain dream states and don't know how to understand them.

However, I am aware that speaking about such matters on the internet is to be done with a certain amount of caution. Nevertheless, I am sure that there is so much information on the internet which is extremely unhelpful, but I just try to approach the topic with certain reservation and safety because I would not wish to add to anyone's potential confusion. It is such a complex area, but I definitely agree that the idea of 'Know Thyself' is at the core of understanding of dreams, especially the lucid ones which may arise spontaneously.

I plan to reply to many other comments, but will doso when I have done other tasks. I received a lot more responses than I expected in the thread overnight and wish to read and reflect a bit first..However, I am glad that that the topic has got as many responses early on.

I have read your first post and one you wrote a short while ago today. I probably first experience lucid dreaming, in the sense of experiencing imagery on the borderline of sleep and waking. I was aware that I was awake, but the experiences were so vivid that it felt incredibly real. I first experience them when I was at school, but never read about lucid dreaming until some time after I had read a lot in the field of psychoanalysis.

I am a bit surprised that you had such long times of pronounced dreaming. I presume that you were able to get up do some activities, like eat and drink. I also hope that you have a supportive network, because I don't think that I would ever get enough peace from others and various duties.

I do have an ongoing interest in dreams, but probably also see it in the context of some other perspectives, including ideas such as Aboriginal dreamtime and shamanic journeys. I believe that it is a fascinating area, but I do think that there are some potential dangers, like having difficulty with making a way back to reality.

Anyway, I do hope to engage in discussions with you again during the thread

I do believe that dreams (and sleep) are important in many ways. I know that when I am severely lacking in sleep, I find it hard to function, especially when I was working rotating shift patterns which wrecked my body clock. Part of this is probably connected to the role of Melatonin, which is produced by the mysterious pineal gland.

I am extremely interested in lucid dreaming, and at some stage read some books on the subject. However, when I tried to practice it at will I was not able to. But, since then, I have found myself entering it accidentally, on a number of occasions, sometimes when I am overtired. It is an unusual experience, and I have felt it to be like some kind of enhancing meditation. That is because it involves imagery which seems like a learning curve.

I think that dreams are so complex as they can be interpreted on many levels. I did spend time in Jungian analysis and my dreams stopped mysteriously, almost like my own subconscious was protesting or resisting analysis. I ended up analysing my real life experiences symbolically for some time. I did keep a dream diary for a few months during another time in my life, and, in that way, I really noticed symbolic themes emerging. What I often find is that my dreams could have one or more possible meanings, and the juggling of them offers one of the best options, even for solving problems, and I don't think that I have ever had one individual dream which stands out with a clear solution, although that would be nice. It sounds in your comment that you do a lot of holding on to the dreams too.

I am hoping that the thread will work as a philosophical discussions, and not just as a psychological one, and certainly not just focusing on Jung. I do think that Freud's approach is also useful too. It appears to me that a lot of people dismiss Freud's approach, viewing it as being just about looking at the sexual meanings of dreams. However, from my own reading, I think that he goes deeper and sees dreams almost like miniature psychoses, taking place within sleep, although I am not sure that I would be able to point to specific passages directly to validate my argument.

However, I think that a wider attempt to look at the philosophy of dreaming does involve looking at the question of what 'reality' is behind the process of dreaming. At the moment, I can't even attempt an answer, but it is definitely a matter which I would like to think about and explore in the thread.

What I have been thinking since reading and writing on this thread earlier is there is little chance of complacency because trends and developments are so rapid. There are just so many voices, from the past and from the present, with so much variation. The symbol that has come to my mind, and I may have mentioned it in some other thread, is the Tower of Babel. There are so many variations in expression of ideas that it can be hard to distinguish the unique, individual voices. There are just so many voices and it is probably not a case of a deadend, but of being overwhelmed in the cacophony of them all.

I do agree with you that one important point of focus is how we see reality in the moment. Whether to reduce it all or enlarge it is a good question. Perhaps, it is all about perspectives, and the shifts in them.