I do believe that dreams (and sleep) are important in many ways. — Jack Cummins

Yes, sleep deprivation can lead to a number of physical and psychological problems.

Lucid dreaming can happen accidentally and it probably happens more often than is commonly assumed, only that people don't know what it is and just brush it off as a "normal" dream.

It is interesting that people who believe not to have this ability, soon find that it can be done with a bit of practice. In my view, this shows that there is a lot more to our consciousness (and to ourselves in general) that we only become aware of when we start paying attention to it.

As already stated in my reply to @MAYAEL, I take lucid dreaming in the context of attaining higher states of consciousness as part of the general inquiry into the nature of the subject of experience.

In my experience, asking the question "who am I?" or "who is experiencing this?" tends to help in going behind and above the everyday awareness of who we are.

I think, in philosophical terms, as pointed out by Plato, Plotinus, and others the emphasis must always be placed on the subject, not on the object, because this is the only way to find out who we really are, which is why "Know Thyself" (Gnothi Seauton) was central to philosophical inquiry among the original philosophers of Greece and other places.

Focusing on the subject instead of the object of lucid dream experience also helps prevent us from "losing ourselves" in the experience.

I think that you are correct to place an emphasis on the subject who is experiencing a state of consciousness rather than the state itself as the ultimate. From what I have seen a lot of the people have experiences of certain dream states and don't know how to understand them.

However, I am aware that speaking about such matters on the internet is to be done with a certain amount of caution. Nevertheless, I am sure that there is so much information on the internet which is extremely unhelpful, but I just try to approach the topic with certain reservation and safety because I would not wish to add to anyone's potential confusion. It is such a complex area, but I definitely agree that the idea of 'Know Thyself' is at the core of understanding of dreams, especially the lucid ones which may arise spontaneously.

I think that many people do see dreams as being like 'mental bowel movement'. However, I think that is partly connected to the way Western society has developed, with an emphasis on fast life, fast cars and fast everything. I guess that I am just not part of the 'fast' revolution and more into the more contemplative mode. I think that ancient people, and other cultures, paid far more attention to dreams. Yet, I think that there are plenty of individuals all over the globe who do, but it is probably more of a fringe interest, although certain dreams may sometimes strike people unexpectedly.

Thanks for the quote from Nietzsche, and it does seem that he is suggesting that dreams are a way of switching off from the pressures of life, and I think that can definitely be true. Hopefully, the dreams are pleasant, although usually if I have a bad dream I feel so glad to wake up and conclude that it was only a dream.

Some people don't seem to remember their dreams as much as others and I don't think that there are any clear explanations why. I know that there are times when I don't really remember them and other times when I remember so many that I feel tired just from thinking about them.

It is unclear whether it means one has been asleep but not in REM sleep. I don't think that you should really worry if you don't have dreams to recall, and this may change.I know people who don't think that they dream and it changes. The subconscious may have its own logic.

. This is a tremendously interesting question ... that ... has been debacted through decades ...

. What are the nature of dreams ... ? Are dreams connected to reality ... or ... is it just part of imagination and dreaming ... ?

. Dream is as real as any other reality. Dream is part of reality. We always create a dichotomy in our minds of good and bad, the real and unreal, of God and devil. We continuously create a dichotomy, and then of course we are caught in it, and it becomes a dilemma.

. Dream is part of reality as much as reality is part of dream. They are not two separate things. So dont create unnecessary problems… accept. It is good. Dream good dreams, and dream with more alertness, more awareness. Have a little more watchfulness and then you will be able to enjoy both. You can enjoy the whole movie of the mind. So many beautiful pictures move on the screen and you can just watch. No movie can be so dramatic or so intriguing but you have to become a spectator also.

. And this is a great art because in the dream you are everything: the actor, the story writer, the playback singer, the projector, the hall, the audience, the screen, the projected film. You are everything and you are doing all sorts of things alone.

. So just one thing has to be remembered to be a witness to all that is happening to you and enjoy it. A great drama is being enacted within you. Dont try to fight or to be against it; dont condemn it as being a dream.
If you dont condemn, by and by the dream will start disappearing. One day comes when the witness is left alone, all dreaming gone, all actors disappear, the projector and the film and the screen, and the theatre; everything gone. One is simply sitting alone in tremendous silence, in a great nowhereness, in nothingness….

. Dont long for it, otherwise it will not come! Just try to understand the dreams. Watch them, witness; dont fight and then that day will come on its own. If you hope for it, you have already lost your witnessing….

. Then just enjoy whatsoever is happening right now.

. The moment you're totally a witness to your dream ... the moment you're totally alert ... you turn to pure consciousness ... in that moment ... the dream is not ... suddenly ... it disappeared ... and ... for the first time ... you are ... not as a mind ... but as a witness ... which is beyond any mind projection ... therefore ... is beyond any dream ... because dreams are mind projections ... and ... mind projects the world ... hence ... the unreality of the world. The world is a means ... is a ladder ... don't be attached to the ladder. It's merely utilitarian ... but ... it's not an end unto itself.

. That state of pure consciousness ... leads to a marvelous end ... it's a timeless experiencing ... it's indescribable. Nobody can describe it ... and ... in fact ... nobody has ever been able to describe it ... it's beyond any description ...

. Jesus calls it the Kingdom of God ... Buddha calls it Dhamma ... Taoists call it TAO ... Sufists call it AWE ... But it's all the same Truth ... they're talking about the same reality ... from different corners ... from different angles ...

. Why do I say this ... ?

. Because dreams ... psychologically talking ... represent unfulfilled moments of your Life ... repressed desires ... things that you wanted to do but, could not – because of the society, because of the culture, because of the religion ...

. That which you didn't Live ... but you wanted to ... you do it ... through your dreams ...

. For example ... try to experience not eating ... at all ... during 2 days ...

. You'll be surprised ... that ... on the third day ... or even ... at the end of the second day ... most probably ... you'll dream about a big supper ... full of ... delicious food ...

. That's what happens to the so-called hindu yogis ...

. They repress their Libido ... their sexuality ... their sexual energy ... which ... part of it ... is manifested through eating ... and it tends to express from the deepest levels of the unconscious ... in the form of dreams. And ... dreams ... are born in that repressed reservoir ...

I think that your question as to whether dreams are 'connected to reality' or just 'imagination' is a central question underlying the philosophy, as opposed to psychology, of dreaming. I think that there is probably no absolute answer because there are so many different kinds of dreams. Some seem to be so 'ordinary' and a weird arrangement of the familiar, whereas some seem so profound as if they are beyond the dumping ground. These seem to be connected to the deeper levels of the self knowledge, and have a numinous quality and seem worth remembering. I don't really write down my dreams because those which are significant usually stand out and, I remember them, just like important life events and lessons. Of course, I don't know if this is how others feel about dreams.

. The more conscious one is about oneself ... The less ... dreams will happen ... have you ever noticed that ... ? It's an interesting phenomenon ...

. When one is no more repressed ... sexualy repressed ... naturally ... dreams fade away ...

. In Tantra and in Yoga ... we call it ... When your Muladhara, the sexual chakra ... is no more blocked ... by repressive energies ... is no more condemned ... by social conditioning ... then ... everything becomes crystal clear ... then ... dreams will not happen ... Why is it so? ... because you won't need them as a mediator ... between ... that which is ... and ... you ...

. You cannot dream about that ... whose nature ... is totally known for you ...

. You only dream that whose nature ... you don't like ... whose nature ... you try to deviate from ... while in wakefulness ... whose nature ... deep inside you ... is repressed ... you condemn ... or ... is condemned by society ... and ... you accept unconsciously this condemnation ...

. I don't dream ... I don't have the need to ... but ... in the past ... yes ... surely. Mistakes are vital ... in order to learn with them ...

. For example ... If you dismantle all condemnation about sex ... that ... these priests set up ... and this implies ... destroying all the christianity tradition ... which is unlikely ... and so on so forth ... you would be surprised to know ... that ... pornography and ... all ... the fancy sexual dreams ... would not and ... in fact ... could not exist ... by the very nature of existence ...

. These stupid priests ... are the real playboys ... they're the real founders ... of playboy ...

. Naturally ... when something is repressed ... it will appear in your dreams ... and it does appear ... in priests dreams ... in nuns dreams ... as ... a nightmare ... hence ... pedophilia and other sexual perversions ...

. Hence ... those stupid fancy stories of nuns ... reporting ... how wonderful is having sex with Satan ... It happened at the middle Ages ... They ... actually ... describe how persuasive ... Satan ... would have been with them ... How sexual he used to be ...

. All the pornhubs and etc ... would just vanish away ... completely ...

. Then ... nobody would have the need to pay a means ... to satisfy himself or herself ...

. Then ... this perversion ... would not exist ... at all ... because ... there would not be any repressed impulse ...

. Then ... sex ... would be a beautiful and a natural phenomenon ... would be ... truly ... a playfulness ...

. And in fact ... sex ... is a beautiful and a natural phenomenon ...

. Because ... Life comes from sex energy ... Life ... as such ... is sex energy ...

Naturally ... when something is repressed ... it will appear on your dreams ... and it does appear ... in priests dreams ... in nuns dreams ... as ... a nightmare ... hence ... pedophilia and other sexual perversions ... — Anand-Haqq

I doubt that pedophilia must be the result of repression. It can equally stem from lack of control and a disturbed mind. And it existed long before Christianity. I don't see any connection with religion.

I've always thought of dreams as a kind of mental bowel movement. — Tom Storm

I thought that is why you came here to the forum.

Something worth considering, and I don't think it necessarily contradicts the other ideas presented here - One aspect of evolution and development is that structures and functions developed for one function or capacity may have side effects. These can be rejiggered for use for another purpose or, as long as they don't gum up the works too much, they can just sit around doing what they do with no particular purpose or meaning. Just because they're there, it doesn't mean dreams mean anything or do anything.

I think that this is a topic for critical discussion and I don't come with any set agenda, or specific arguments to prove. I think that there is a danger of anyone thinking that they know all the answers. We all have such unique experiences, and I am not merely trying to sit on the fence, or if I am, its for lack of a comfortable chair. As it is, I try to read and look at life, and dreams, from the widest possible lens, or binoculars.

Having just said that I come from a situation of viewing in a general way, I am just aware that you have said something which is controversial because it has come to light how there has been sexual abuse behind closed doors. Obviously, that is an area of debate and controversy, with so many facets, but it is an aside from the topic of dreams. I suppose that the way in which the idea of the suppressed or repressed is relevant to dreams is in the way in which the subconscious works.

But, in a way we may have moved beyond the culture of sexual puritanism. I think that in the age of the pandemic we have moved into an emphasis on cleanliness and being germ free, with hand gel as the new 'holy water', but I don't wish to derail the thread I have started. I am simply saying the dynamics of the subconscious in the life of the individual have probably shifted, and this is likely to have implications for the individual, including the contents of dreams. However, I am wary of all generalisations, especially as it would appear likely that our own subconscious lives are affected by our cultural roots and upbringing.

There seems to be a wide variety of hypotheses, confirmed or tentative, about dreams.

Speaking for myself, drawing from personal experience, dreams tend to be more visual than anything else i.e. the primary sensory modality in dreams is vision; not surprising because we're supposed to sleep at night when sunlight is absent and dreams are somnological phenomena.

Why would our visual system be activated intermittently during episodes of REM (rapid eye movement)?

The contents of our dreams tend to be random in most cases bearing no relationship to immediate and even remote experiences while awake. Yes we do see people we know and objects we're familiar (not necessarily though) with in our dreams but the contexts in which they occur are completely novel and lie outside of our, how shall I put it?, history. I guess what I mean is that despite the fact that we seem people/objects that we're acquainted in our waking states, that they appear to be in completely new contexts suggests that our minds project their thoughts into the visual cortex of our brains. In other words, dreams are a combination of visual cortex activation and thought projection, whichever part of the brain that does that. That's why we see objects we're aware of (visual cortex switched on) but in entirely strange settings (thought projection...prefrontal cortex?).

Mayhaps, the brain is generating possible worlds, different scenarios, contemplating hypotheticals i.e. imagining "what if?" To what end though is a mystery to me. What's the purpose of thinking hypothetically?

Last but not the least, this is going to make you laugh, it's quite possible that dreams are screensavers

I think that dreams definitely contain anxiety based on the past. However, they can also contain signs of the future, as many have experienced. But, it is possible that this is more about being able to see patterns beyond the immediate, and it could be that the subconscious is more able to tune into this aspect of experience.

I think that you are correct to see the way in which we are able to see and construct meanings in dreams. I think that it is so individual and based on life experiences. I have dreams about ideas or discussion of ideas but that says a lot about my own mindset. I think that the extent to which we develop our own dream lives is connected to how important they are to us. It may be that people whose outer lives are more unhappy or empty become more focused on dream experiences.

Thanks for your contribution and the idea of possible worlds'. However, what I do have to say is that I created this thread last night, and went to bed. When I finally managed to get to sleep I was dreaming about reading and writing on the site. I dreamt that you had started a thread about the idea of delusion. When I woke up and looked at the site, I discovered that you had really created a thread about a blue butterfly and about illusion.

I have been thinking was this is a synchronicity? Or, is it an example of how easy it is to read meanings into patterns? I am not sure...But, I also dreamt that someone, and I won't name the person created a thread called, 'The Way Stories Program Us'. I think that it is unlikely that such a thread will appear, but wouldn't it be strange if it did. Probably, my dream is more a sign that I think too much about this site if I am dreaming about threads which don't even exist. But, as my phone is beside my bed and beeps if I get replies, perhaps it is not surprising that I dream that I am reading and writing on the site.

I have also had a few precognitive ones. — Jack Cummins

Can you maybe delve into that in more detail and describe it? I would be very interested in that.

I will try, but it will be later because I am out and my battery is going to run out. But, I will try to illustrate my point.

Okay, thanks.

Food for thought: REM sleep (dreams) if not interrupted results in total failure to recollect one's dreams. Why is that? Dreams are about familiar objects like one's lover (wet dreams) or other everyday objects, implying that the brain in REM sleep has access to long-term memory. However the dream itself isn't stored into long-term memory and thus our inability to remember them later, say in the morning when you wake up after a night's sleep. It appears that the brain wants to ensure that sleep and awake states don't communicate with each other. It almost feels like a conspiracy masterminded by the brain; you know, like keeping two criminals (bad analogy but bear with me) in separate cells to prevent them from cooperating and breaking out of prison. That said, dreams seem to be held in short-term memory as we can recall them if woken up in REM sleep. To make the long story short, dreaming accesses long-term memory but the hypotheticals it deals with exist for a very brief moment in short-term memory.

An interesting corollary follows: quite possibly those who complain of poor memory are dreaming (sleep walking).

I am aware that I still have some outstanding replies to write, but I am waiting until tomorrow, to write them, because I want to write with clarity of thought. However, in the meantime, please feel free to discuss and explore the topic. After all, I opened the thread for discussion, and, during today, I have become increasingly aware how the topic is an extremely complex area, but I do believe that it raises many areas of thought, which certainly, in my opinion are at the core of the various philosophical problems.

I am putting in my final comment for today, and I don't wish for it be heavy weather, because I opened the thread for lively interaction.

I am a bit reserved to talk about dream premonitions in detail, because it goes back to a difficult period in my life, when I had 3 friends commit suicide. I had a variety of premonitions but felt powerless to help my friends, as two of them were not even living near to me. My strongest premonitions included a dream of seeing a broken apart body lying on a pavement, a couple of days before hearing of a friend's death.

However, I won't go into further because this is a thread I only started yesterday. I don't wish for it to become negative and depressing, because that is not my outlook on dreams at all. I may share some more positive experiences later, and apart from the risk of disclosing on line, such disclosure only counts as some kind of empirical evidence, which is only of certain limited value within philosophy discussion.

I am already concerned that the territory which I have explored will make it the 'untouchable' thread. I was hoping that it could become a really upbeat thread, because I see dreaming as being far from doom and gloom. I see it as a creative endeavour. I welcome any further contributions, but if not, I will try to write my outstanding replies tomorrow, and frame them in such a way that they may contribute towards positive, upbeat exploration and I don't wish to write the most miserable thread ever. That is not how I see life or dreams at all.

Mayhaps, the brain is generating possible worlds, different scenarios, contemplating hypotheticals i.e. imagining "what if?" To what end though is a mystery to me. What's the purpose of thinking hypothetically? — TheMadFool

My personal impression is that dreams have more than just one purpose, e.g.:

1. One possibility is that the mind processes and assimilates experiences that it had no opportunity to deal with during waking.

2. Thinking or dreaming hypothetically may be another way of learning, developing ideas, or preparing us for unforeseen situations.

3. Dreams may contain "signs of the future" as suggested by @Jack.

4. Another possibility is that humans leave "thought imprints" on surrounding objects in the same way we leave scent particles and other traces that can be picked up by animals or scientific instruments. We then unconsciously pick them up through contact with those objects, e.g., a chair in a restaurant or coffee shop, and then "read" and process the information via images seen in dreams. This would be the case when we dream of objects and persons with whom we have no known connections.

There are other "metaphysical" possibilities but I don't think we need to go into them here.

Inability to dream can be a sign of lack of certain vitamins or minerals in your system or some other medical condition. In Ancient Greece and other cultures certain plants were used as an aid to stimulate dreams. Wreaths of rosemary or oregano were worn on the head or twigs placed under the pillow. Apparently, basil has the same effect. The plants can also be eaten or essential oils from them inhaled. — Apollodorus

All I've eaten for the last few years is plants :lol: And even before this I always had a relatively healthy diet, nothing like the "Standard American Diet".

Maybe my Crohn's/Colitis is causing lack of absorption or something.

We can tell stories about it, but I don't think we have a clue.

We can psychoanalyze them or say that when we dream our brains are at the deepest state of rest or something along those lines, but it says virtually nothing of what "purpose" they have, if any.

It's very interesting. But supremely difficult.

Maybe my Crohn's/Colitis is causing lack of absorption or something. — Down The Rabbit Hole

Or the subconscious may have its own logic as @Jack says. You can always try telling it to look into it and see what it comes up with.

Thank you for your response despite its somber content. I am very interested in parapsychological phenomena, that is why I asked you about your precognitive dreams. I know that most parapsychologists assume that precognitive dreams do not present an objective, or objectively given future, but that the mind constructs an event that is very likely to occur.

My particular dreams are a bit more mundane. I had several times dreamed the correct outcome of a sporting event that took place while I was asleep, communicated by some dream person. All electronic devices in my bedroom were switched off. And it had not always been a generally expected result. It was once a boxing match. which was even an upset. However, such dreams were always rare.

I've always thought of dreams as a kind of mental bowel movement.
— Tom Storm

I thought that is why you came here to the forum. — T Clark

That's an unpleasant comment. I hope I am better than this TC.

The idea of dreams as a kind of bowel movement is not uncommon and was certainly an idea proposed when I studied counselling in the 1980's.

I see also in The Dream Interpretation Dictionary: Symbols, Signs, and Meanings
By J.M. DeBord, that the bowel movement/dream comparison is suggested. Page 384. 'The bowel movement is... a perfect analogy for the nightly process of discarding unneeded memories.' I don't know about memories as such, but all the material that goes into the mind during the day is processed and, perhaps, is subsequently evacuated.

Thank you for your response, and I am still logged in. I am certainly not wishing to create a somber thread, which is why I put my responses on hold. I definitely would wish to look beyond my own dreams and include so many other people's experiences. I do believe that the mundane, including boxing matches, are all aspects of trying to see our lives within a larger scheme. But, I am out and about, relying on a mobile signal, but tomorrow, I am hoping that I can work through some unanswered replies because I do believe that dreaming and philosophy can be a useful area of discussion.