I thought that the idea of the astral body probably goes back to Plato. I came across the idea in theosophy. One interesting argument for the existence of an astral body is the existence of images of it within Kirlian photography. I had my aura photographed once, and it was a mixture of red, pink and orange. The interpretation of the person who photographed it was fairly interesting, considering that she had never met me before.

I have heard that dreams of falling, on the verge of sleep, are connected to going into the astral dimension. I have these frequently and they often jolt me awake.

The idea of one's philosophy being a matter of taste suggests that it is completely subjective, as being a matter of attraction, like taste in music, or what people one is attracted to. It would really involve attitudes, but probably an intuitive leanings towards certain ideas and ideals. In some ways, I am sure that we choose to adopt certain views on the basis of attitudes and what we like or dislike. This is connected with values.

But, if philosophy is only entered into in this way, surely it would be rather shallow, and avoid any real attempt to understand life and the questions of existence. I think that it is important to be aware of personal attitudes and how they play a role. In a way, each person is trying to construct a philosophy to find a way of living meaningfully, so is entitled to choose what to believe. However, if those ideas are to be a serious endeavor to understand, and exchange ideas I believe that it is not worth engaging in if it is just like supporting one's favourite football team or rock band.

One idea about dreaming which I am aware of in some philosophies, especially those in the East, is that of the astral body. This is also linked to the idea of there being an astral plane. I am aware of the idea being open to attack within philosophy, but, in some ways, I think that I find the idea makes sense. Of course, the idea does involve the belief that the astral body is there all the time, and is involved in the emotional life and also comes into play when people get sick .It is closely related to the concept of auras, which some people claim that they can see.

I think that such confusion over whether certain experiences really happened or not does exist in certain states of delirium, such as those involved in alcohol intoxication, psychosis and dementia. There is also what Freud describes as false memory syndrome, but that can be criticised on the basis that it is about someone, such as a psychiatrist trying to tell someone that a certain experiences is simply their imagination.

But, I know some people who do seem unsure of their own memories, and, it does seem that waking life and dreams almost blur together. We can even ask to what extent are we truly 'awake'. Guirjieff and a number of other thinkers thought that most people were living like robots and that the goal should be to become more awake.

I noticed in one of your comments, you say that 'Perhaps dreams aren't really dreams.' and you go on to say that would mean that our waking experience isn't real. If that were the case it could be the basis for the Eastern idea of maya, or the idea of reality as an illusion. Or, alternatively it could even be the basis for the soliptist point of view. Do you have any further thoughts on the matter?

I am wondering if you wish to share a bit about your own precognitive dreams. It doesn't matter if they are mundane, because I am not wishing this thread to become too heavy weather. I believe that my childhood memory of one was when I dreamt that my toy chimpanzee's arm broke and it really did break shortly afterwards. Apart from being upset that Charlie Chimp's arm broke, I can remember saying to my mum, how strange it was that I had the dream beforehand.

As far as I am aware animals dream which does also suggest that animals have a subconscious. We could also say that thinking about dreaming involves wondering about the nature of the subconscious itself.

I am really about to finish writing for tonight as I am not home yet. I certainly didn't see your comment about 'bowel movements' as the end of discussion because I think that you really say so much more. But, I think that is one of the ways in which dreams are seen, and I think that is how many people see philosophy too. But, I really will log out now, because my mum is waiting for my call to know that I am home safely.

Thank you for your response, and I am still logged in. I am certainly not wishing to create a somber thread, which is why I put my responses on hold. I definitely would wish to look beyond my own dreams and include so many other people's experiences. I do believe that the mundane, including boxing matches, are all aspects of trying to see our lives within a larger scheme. But, I am out and about, relying on a mobile signal, but tomorrow, I am hoping that I can work through some unanswered replies because I do believe that dreaming and philosophy can be a useful area of discussion.

I am putting in my final comment for today, and I don't wish for it be heavy weather, because I opened the thread for lively interaction.

I am a bit reserved to talk about dream premonitions in detail, because it goes back to a difficult period in my life, when I had 3 friends commit suicide. I had a variety of premonitions but felt powerless to help my friends, as two of them were not even living near to me. My strongest premonitions included a dream of seeing a broken apart body lying on a pavement, a couple of days before hearing of a friend's death.

However, I won't go into further because this is a thread I only started yesterday. I don't wish for it to become negative and depressing, because that is not my outlook on dreams at all. I may share some more positive experiences later, and apart from the risk of disclosing on line, such disclosure only counts as some kind of empirical evidence, which is only of certain limited value within philosophy discussion.

I am already concerned that the territory which I have explored will make it the 'untouchable' thread. I was hoping that it could become a really upbeat thread, because I see dreaming as being far from doom and gloom. I see it as a creative endeavour. I welcome any further contributions, but if not, I will try to write my outstanding replies tomorrow, and frame them in such a way that they may contribute towards positive, upbeat exploration and I don't wish to write the most miserable thread ever. That is not how I see life or dreams at all.

I am aware that I still have some outstanding replies to write, but I am waiting until tomorrow, to write them, because I want to write with clarity of thought. However, in the meantime, please feel free to discuss and explore the topic. After all, I opened the thread for discussion, and, during today, I have become increasingly aware how the topic is an extremely complex area, but I do believe that it raises many areas of thought, which certainly, in my opinion are at the core of the various philosophical problems.

I will try, but it will be later because I am out and my battery is going to run out. But, I will try to illustrate my point.

Thanks for your contribution and the idea of possible worlds'. However, what I do have to say is that I created this thread last night, and went to bed. When I finally managed to get to sleep I was dreaming about reading and writing on the site. I dreamt that you had started a thread about the idea of delusion. When I woke up and looked at the site, I discovered that you had really created a thread about a blue butterfly and about illusion.

I have been thinking was this is a synchronicity? Or, is it an example of how easy it is to read meanings into patterns? I am not sure...But, I also dreamt that someone, and I won't name the person created a thread called, 'The Way Stories Program Us'. I think that it is unlikely that such a thread will appear, but wouldn't it be strange if it did. Probably, my dream is more a sign that I think too much about this site if I am dreaming about threads which don't even exist. But, as my phone is beside my bed and beeps if I get replies, perhaps it is not surprising that I dream that I am reading and writing on the site.

I think that you are correct to see the way in which we are able to see and construct meanings in dreams. I think that it is so individual and based on life experiences. I have dreams about ideas or discussion of ideas but that says a lot about my own mindset. I think that the extent to which we develop our own dream lives is connected to how important they are to us. It may be that people whose outer lives are more unhappy or empty become more focused on dream experiences.

I think that dreams definitely contain anxiety based on the past. However, they can also contain signs of the future, as many have experienced. But, it is possible that this is more about being able to see patterns beyond the immediate, and it could be that the subconscious is more able to tune into this aspect of experience.

Having just said that I come from a situation of viewing in a general way, I am just aware that you have said something which is controversial because it has come to light how there has been sexual abuse behind closed doors. Obviously, that is an area of debate and controversy, with so many facets, but it is an aside from the topic of dreams. I suppose that the way in which the idea of the suppressed or repressed is relevant to dreams is in the way in which the subconscious works.

But, in a way we may have moved beyond the culture of sexual puritanism. I think that in the age of the pandemic we have moved into an emphasis on cleanliness and being germ free, with hand gel as the new 'holy water', but I don't wish to derail the thread I have started. I am simply saying the dynamics of the subconscious in the life of the individual have probably shifted, and this is likely to have implications for the individual, including the contents of dreams. However, I am wary of all generalisations, especially as it would appear likely that our own subconscious lives are affected by our cultural roots and upbringing.

I think that this is a topic for critical discussion and I don't come with any set agenda, or specific arguments to prove. I think that there is a danger of anyone thinking that they know all the answers. We all have such unique experiences, and I am not merely trying to sit on the fence, or if I am, its for lack of a comfortable chair. As it is, I try to read and look at life, and dreams, from the widest possible lens, or binoculars.

I think that your question as to whether dreams are 'connected to reality' or just 'imagination' is a central question underlying the philosophy, as opposed to psychology, of dreaming. I think that there is probably no absolute answer because there are so many different kinds of dreams. Some seem to be so 'ordinary' and a weird arrangement of the familiar, whereas some seem so profound as if they are beyond the dumping ground. These seem to be connected to the deeper levels of the self knowledge, and have a numinous quality and seem worth remembering. I don't really write down my dreams because those which are significant usually stand out and, I remember them, just like important life events and lessons. Of course, I don't know if this is how others feel about dreams.

Some people don't seem to remember their dreams as much as others and I don't think that there are any clear explanations why. I know that there are times when I don't really remember them and other times when I remember so many that I feel tired just from thinking about them.

It is unclear whether it means one has been asleep but not in REM sleep. I don't think that you should really worry if you don't have dreams to recall, and this may change.I know people who don't think that they dream and it changes. The subconscious may have its own logic.

Thanks for the quote from Nietzsche, and it does seem that he is suggesting that dreams are a way of switching off from the pressures of life, and I think that can definitely be true. Hopefully, the dreams are pleasant, although usually if I have a bad dream I feel so glad to wake up and conclude that it was only a dream.

I think that many people do see dreams as being like 'mental bowel movement'. However, I think that is partly connected to the way Western society has developed, with an emphasis on fast life, fast cars and fast everything. I guess that I am just not part of the 'fast' revolution and more into the more contemplative mode. I think that ancient people, and other cultures, paid far more attention to dreams. Yet, I think that there are plenty of individuals all over the globe who do, but it is probably more of a fringe interest, although certain dreams may sometimes strike people unexpectedly.

I think that you are correct to place an emphasis on the subject who is experiencing a state of consciousness rather than the state itself as the ultimate. From what I have seen a lot of the people have experiences of certain dream states and don't know how to understand them.

However, I am aware that speaking about such matters on the internet is to be done with a certain amount of caution. Nevertheless, I am sure that there is so much information on the internet which is extremely unhelpful, but I just try to approach the topic with certain reservation and safety because I would not wish to add to anyone's potential confusion. It is such a complex area, but I definitely agree that the idea of 'Know Thyself' is at the core of understanding of dreams, especially the lucid ones which may arise spontaneously.

I plan to reply to many other comments, but will doso when I have done other tasks. I received a lot more responses than I expected in the thread overnight and wish to read and reflect a bit first..However, I am glad that that the topic has got as many responses early on.

I have read your first post and one you wrote a short while ago today. I probably first experience lucid dreaming, in the sense of experiencing imagery on the borderline of sleep and waking. I was aware that I was awake, but the experiences were so vivid that it felt incredibly real. I first experience them when I was at school, but never read about lucid dreaming until some time after I had read a lot in the field of psychoanalysis.

I am a bit surprised that you had such long times of pronounced dreaming. I presume that you were able to get up do some activities, like eat and drink. I also hope that you have a supportive network, because I don't think that I would ever get enough peace from others and various duties.

I do have an ongoing interest in dreams, but probably also see it in the context of some other perspectives, including ideas such as Aboriginal dreamtime and shamanic journeys. I believe that it is a fascinating area, but I do think that there are some potential dangers, like having difficulty with making a way back to reality.

Anyway, I do hope to engage in discussions with you again during the thread

I do believe that dreams (and sleep) are important in many ways. I know that when I am severely lacking in sleep, I find it hard to function, especially when I was working rotating shift patterns which wrecked my body clock. Part of this is probably connected to the role of Melatonin, which is produced by the mysterious pineal gland.

I am extremely interested in lucid dreaming, and at some stage read some books on the subject. However, when I tried to practice it at will I was not able to. But, since then, I have found myself entering it accidentally, on a number of occasions, sometimes when I am overtired. It is an unusual experience, and I have felt it to be like some kind of enhancing meditation. That is because it involves imagery which seems like a learning curve.

I think that dreams are so complex as they can be interpreted on many levels. I did spend time in Jungian analysis and my dreams stopped mysteriously, almost like my own subconscious was protesting or resisting analysis. I ended up analysing my real life experiences symbolically for some time. I did keep a dream diary for a few months during another time in my life, and, in that way, I really noticed symbolic themes emerging. What I often find is that my dreams could have one or more possible meanings, and the juggling of them offers one of the best options, even for solving problems, and I don't think that I have ever had one individual dream which stands out with a clear solution, although that would be nice. It sounds in your comment that you do a lot of holding on to the dreams too.

I am hoping that the thread will work as a philosophical discussions, and not just as a psychological one, and certainly not just focusing on Jung. I do think that Freud's approach is also useful too. It appears to me that a lot of people dismiss Freud's approach, viewing it as being just about looking at the sexual meanings of dreams. However, from my own reading, I think that he goes deeper and sees dreams almost like miniature psychoses, taking place within sleep, although I am not sure that I would be able to point to specific passages directly to validate my argument.

However, I think that a wider attempt to look at the philosophy of dreaming does involve looking at the question of what 'reality' is behind the process of dreaming. At the moment, I can't even attempt an answer, but it is definitely a matter which I would like to think about and explore in the thread.

What I have been thinking since reading and writing on this thread earlier is there is little chance of complacency because trends and developments are so rapid. There are just so many voices, from the past and from the present, with so much variation. The symbol that has come to my mind, and I may have mentioned it in some other thread, is the Tower of Babel. There are so many variations in expression of ideas that it can be hard to distinguish the unique, individual voices. There are just so many voices and it is probably not a case of a deadend, but of being overwhelmed in the cacophony of them all.

I do agree with you that one important point of focus is how we see reality in the moment. Whether to reduce it all or enlarge it is a good question. Perhaps, it is all about perspectives, and the shifts in them.

You suggest that 'we need to go through all these painful deaths if we're going to ever see our mistakes' regarding errors in philosophy. It reminds me of a book title by the psychologist, James Hillman, 'We've Had a Hundred Years of Psychotherapy and the World is Getting Worse.' Similarly, we may ask about where philosophy is going in way of progress?

I think that it a complicated dialectic. On one hand, there is the way in which mainstream and countercultural protests are opposed. But, also the ideas and ideals in the counterculture become so successful that they are incorporated into the mainstream. So, a further new wave of protest ideas come in, both within the arts and other forms of ideas.

Also, political factors come into play affecting trends, as well as interrelated ideas which are not necessarily countercultural as such, but divergent. What I am thinking of is how there was the whole idea of the new age movement. This was partly connected to ideals based on the aquarian movement, which was linked in some ways with the utopian ideals which emerged from the hippy age, and the rise of the new age hippies. However, it was also interconnected with millennium fears, linked to the significance of the year 2000.

But, the world didn't end or the computers didn't crash, and even 2012 was seen as being potentially significant, in relation to the Mayan calendar. But, I think it is harder to disentangle the different conflicting ideas now, because it is as if many movements are partly fragmenting and converging too. I am not even sure how or if the idea of the new age affected or was seen by the philosophers. I know that such ideas are often seen as 'woo' on this site, but I don't know if that is an accurate global picture.

You have added a couple of new pictures, and they are a little different, but extremely powerful. I am interested to know what media you are working in. I did wonder if the initial ones were done using computer graphics. However, the latest look more like paintings, and it is possible that you are combining the two, because I think that is one of the ways in which graphics and illustrations is going_ the new reality emerging within art.

When you speak of elites and technocracies, this also makes me think about how in some ways rather than a possible deadend, there is also so much scope for ideas which challenge the status quo. I think that this exists in the internet, but also within philosophy and the arts historically. When I spoke of T.S. Eliot's 'The Wasteland', we can think how that was a major influence in literature and the cultural development of ideas.

I think that it is worth looking back at the way in which ideas developed in the twentieth century. The 1960s protest movement played a key role with the expression in the music and the development of counterculture. This was linked with the rise of sociology and women's liberation. There was also punk rock and other genres, which spoke of alienation, but also with a radical idea of transformation.

In the twentieth century, we are in an interesting time. In philosophy, we can see the past history of existentialism and romanticism, as well as postmodernism. Alongside this, we have the developments in the sciences, especially neuroscientists. So, it is interesting to know what comes next in philosophy and culture. My own thinking about it fluctuates between demoralisation and optimism. But, I think it is clear that in this information age, there is so much which, as you say is nonsense, and part of the problem may be that many people get lost in making their way through all the jumble of ideas.

Thanks to people who have entered into this discussion. I am about to go to bed, but I will look at them tomorrow, and write some comments, because I don't wish to rush replies when I am tired. In the meantime, I hope that the topic inspires some interesting dialogue and debate.

I have just thought that it is funny really, because I am going off to sleep, and dream..

They are fantastic and I hope that my thread survives a while longer, so that your art and what you have written are seen by others. I do art myself, but most of my art is on the wall in my mother's house. I did study art therapy, but haven't done much art in the last few years but would like to do so.

I imagined you would be rather creative, having chosen the name PoeticUniverse. I see the creative arts as being as essential to philosophy as physics and the other physical sciences. When I started this thread I was thinking partly about the nature of reality in relation to physics, but I was also thinking of it in the widest possible way. So, thanks for your input and fantastic input, and I hope that this thread continues for a while longer, as a little gallery...

I think that maths does have a lot to explain about the nature of time, in terms of the figures. But, I think that there is also symbolism of numbers, which I think is interesting. As far as I know 7 is the number of perfection, and 6 as the number 12 as well, with the idea of 13 being considered as imperfection. At one point, numerology, the mystery of numbers was taken seriously, but I think now it is considered to be a rather outdated 'occult' practice. But, on the subject of time, I have thought about time zones recently, mainly as a result of using this site, because I am aware that certain people come on at certain times, and it is because our own days and nights vary so much.

I am interested in the subject of dreams and have thought about creating a thread on dreams. The only reason why I haven't done it is because it is sometimes hard to formulate ideas which make them work as philosophy issues, but I may be tempted to take the risk...

I wondered about your own experience of altered perception. I definitely find music to be one way of experiencing the numinous, and have some kind of natural affinity with psychedelic experience.But, I do have intense hypnagogic and hypnopompic experiences at times, in which I am floating around in the room, knowing that my body is lying on the bed, and these are a bit unnerving.

It also seems to me that some people are more inclined to have OBEs than others, and I think that comes into play when people use any kind of substances. But, I do think that Huxley's book, 'The Doors of Perception/Heaven and Hell' is so interesting too, especially how it points to the idea of the mind being a reducing valve for mind at large, which is based on Bergson's idea. I am not saying that I am sure that perspective is true, but I do see it as a possibility.

However, what makes the OBE or NDE difficult to be seen as real 'proof' is that the person is still alive enough to return to life. But, I think that it may be the furthest proof. But, of course, it is possible to go into the real territory of 'woo'land, with people who claim to have been visited by spirits and I have a friend who speaks of having encounters St Augustine. However, all these ideas are open to critical analysis, and I of all people am aware of the need for this based on my experience of psychiatric nursing.

At times, my own experiences, including those using substances and those which I had naturally do make me question, even though I do not see them as proof, of any potential life beyond this one. I have experienced a number of strange out of body experiences naturally, which can occur if I am under severe stress or haven't eaten enough.

The big experience which does make me wonder about life beyond the body was the one which I had on acid, which I mentioned in one of my threads. It was where I went to the mirror, expecting to see some kind of monster. Instead, I could see the walls around me, and the radiator but I was not there at all. It was as if I had got out of my body truly. The whole experience was one in which I knew that I had some connection with my body, but it did seem to have become unhinged in some remarkable way. I was able to walk, but I had the sensation of being able to walk through people. I spent the night lying down and having sips of water, and in the morning I felt that things had gone back to normal. When I felt that I wanted some breakfast, I felt that this was a sign that I was back in my body, and I felt safe to leave the warehouse and make my way home.

That is a wonderful piece of art you have put on the thread. It is rather psychedelic and metaphysical. Do you know who the artist is?

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I am sorry if I misunderstood you. I am just interested in the future of philosophy and related fields of thought. It is not my own personal issue, because apart from writing on this site and reading books, I don't have any role or life revolving around philosophy at all. But, I do enjoy my reading and, thinking itself.

I do agree that culture is changing fast and it is hard to keep up with it. Also, it is easy to feel lost amidst it all, with no sense of any belonging. I think that it is enough of a struggle to find meaning and purpose, and it is for that reason that I turn towards philosophy. Of course, it doesn't have all the answers.I would not really expect it to provide them, but at least it provides methods and ways of thinking for the many different aspects of human existence, as the arts do too. It can be about coping in the face of the deadend and wastelands.

I think that the experience of alienation is complex. It is about feeling rejected and about feeling lost, especially in the age of technology. We may have feelings of loss as individuals, and also feel that we do not count in the grand scheme of life. In some ways, such thinking is connected to our own psychology, and sense of lack of low self esteem and worth. But, in other ways, it is related to social and cultural perspectives and it may be that philosophy can help put this together. Perhaps, philosophy can help to save us.