I think that the reason I was interested in your discussion is the way you spoke of the philosophy of mind. I have been reading this thread today, finding it fascinating, more on the level of consideration of mind, because I am most certainly not a mathematician. I am interested in your view of mind lacking determination. The angle I am coming from is one arising in the thread I made on pessimism and optimism, and realising that in the discussions which I am having, I am coming from the angle of believing that our consciousness, perhaps as part a larger consciousness may have a determining factor in our lives, and realising that others don't necessarily have that view at all.

However, I am not sure whether this is relevant
what you are querying, but I am probably responding to yours because it is a more general one within the thread.

My own take on it is that it sometimes seems that there are so many potential obstacles that I am amazed and grateful that things go as well as they do. I am often busy making plan B and then the whole circumstances alter and both plan A and B disintegrate, with plan C appearing in the midst.

I am not trying to be complicated, but I find that the more prepared I am for certain eventualities, the more the picture seems to shift. But, in spite of the way life seems to come with plenty of harsh shocks, I find that there are usually some pleasant ones. But I am not convinced that what happens in life is random, and I do believe that on some level our consciousness has a key role, on some kind of subliminal level. It is probably for this reason, that I think that the whole question of pessimism and optimism is an important one for discussion.

You may be mistaken in seeing the pessimism and optimism as a matter of believing in life after death or not. One of the main heroes of pessimism, Schopenhauer, pointed to whole philosophy of pessimism in Christianity, in the idea of sin. I would add to what he wrote in saying that Christianity has a whole heritage of belief in the fall of angels and the consequent fall of human beings. So, it is a fairly grim view of human nature. Also, the idea of life after death does have a potential sting, in the possibility of hell.

The art may be able to hold on to a slight glimmer of light amidst some form of bleak pessimism, in order to find ways of coping with the daily aspects of living.

Yes, I think that makes it a lot better, and it was not a criticism, just a wish to be able to read what you had written.

You say that you are not literate. I think that you are extremely literate, but just need to break up your great long paragraph. I found my eyes could not cope, but it seems well written and as if it is really worth reading.

Of course, we smile and things often do get worse. It is difficult to know how much is just us seeing patterns, or how much impact our subconscious wishes have upon us, for better or worse. So, you could ask to what extent does it matter whether we embrace a philosophy of pessimism or optimism, or certain psychological attitudes? Does it really matter, in determining experiences and how we interpret our experiences?

Yes, I am glad for your little elegant post, to steer the thread back on track. I do think that the wish to live, or die, is at the centre of the consideration about pessimism and optimism. I think that an underlying aspect is that of will. I have seen people who have a great wish to live and that seems to provide the will to persist in spite of great obstacles. Also, I have seen people who seem to have given up, as if they have lost the will to carry on and, in some cases, it seems that they become more susceptible to severe organic illnesses. Of course, I am not saying that all people who become seriously ill physically have lost the will to live, as that would far be too simplistic.

Another aspect of the matter may be faith, not in the religious sense, but in the way the balance between pessimism and optimism are juggled. That is because there needs to be a certain positive motivating factor. Perhaps those who consider themselves pessimists or nihilists have faith in order to battle on in spite of living with an awareness of suffering, and death, hovering in the background.

I am about to go out, but will have a think before I reply because it is a really big question.

I think that a lot of threads on this site ask about the cause of consciousness but we can also ask what is consciousness, and how it fits into the scheme of the universe. That is not forgetting the overall question of pessimism and optimism. At the moment, I am wondering if they may be the manifestation of the duality of life and death in the human psyche.

You are raising several philosophy questions really. Mainly, you are asking whether we have free will. Also, you are asking about causes which include biological, psychological, social and environmental aspects. I do believe that your introduction is also probably concerning with what is s desirable for human beings to become.

I have got to go out shortly, so I am logging out now. But, I think it will be interesting to see how other people respond and what path the thread takes.

It is a complex area, involving the question about our basic nature and our quest for meaning. In some ways, it could be argued that thinking and philosophy are all part of the survival process. However, that would seem to be reducing it all to the perspective of evolutionary biology. Culture seems so important. Could the purpose of biology itself be the evolution of consciousness? If that view was taken, the whole process of finding our own gravitation on the pessimism and optimism spectrum, and forming worldviews would be seen as essential.

I think that you raise an important area for considering because, on one hand, there is human nature, although, of course, there is no one single theory. However, apart from the basic assumptions made about what human beings are like, there are questions about potential and what we become. This is where agency comes in and we can begin to think about what it really means to be human and about becoming as a choice, although some would deny that we have free will.

I have read 'The Mayan Factor,' by Jose Arguelles.
It is an inspiring book. One I am reading at present is 'Cosmic Consciousness,' by Richard Maurice Bucke. He speaks of how in addition to there being 'consciousness of the cosmos there occurs an intellectual enlightenment or illumination which would place the individual on a new plane of existence...' Perhaps this aspect is a central truth underlying the religious quests.

I think that it is also worth considering what does is involved and what is dreaming exactly? We have dreams every night and from what I have read in that area of psychology, it appears that dream sleep (REM) is of particular significance, to the point where it could be asked is the whole purpose of sleep to dream? Dreams have been seen as significant in some cultures, and both Freud and Jung spoke of them as revealing significant insights about our personal lives. But what is dreaming?I wonder about the significance of dreaming in the wider scheme of the development of our consciousness.

One thing which I think about in relation to the poll question is that it is so easy to become caught up in finding pleasure for oneself and miss the importance of trying to help others find pleasure. In the harshness of life, I feel that I am sometimes struggling to make life bearable, but feel that finding pleasure makes it bearable. However, in juggling this, I try not to lose sight of thinking about my actions just as a way of satisfying my own needs, but I think that it all has to be balanced carefully and mindfully.

Actually, what this has made me wonder is how pessimism and optimism fit together with the whole life instincts. I am making the connection with Freud's emphasis on the life and death instincts, Eros and Thanatos. I am wondering to what extent are optimism and pessimism part of our innate tendency towards survival and how we develop cognitive tendencies, especially at different stages in our lives. Or, alternatively, perhaps the gravitation towards pessimism or optimism plays a significant determinant role in establishing aspects of our physical and psychological survival.

I think that we are all probably looking for a worldview that works for us. That is probably central to the whole philosophical quest and it is so interesting that what seems to work for one person doesn't seem to work for others at all.

No, I am not referring to the diagnosis of paranoid schizophrenia at all. I apologise, because I didn't explain what I meant at all. Melanie Klein spoke of two stages of development in infancy, in the child's relationship with the mother and the anxieties relating to her. It forms the basis for projective processes in other relationships in life. It may come into play in groups, especially in how we defend ourselves and our points of view.

I think that the problem with your discussion is that you keep leaping from one area to another, transgender, souls and, reading through the thread it is a complete jumble. I am not saying that you should not have a discussion, but bearing in mind that gender is such a vast topic I think that you need to try to narrow it down in order for it to work. It is also a sensitive topic, so ideally it calls for some knowledge rather than just rambling opinion. Here, what I am talking about is the way in which there is inequality between men and women, and the experience of minorities.

So, I do think that you need to really think about is what you wish to ask. I probably won't engage further in the discussion because I don't wish to get into such a politically contentious debate on this forum. However, the one thing which I do also think that you should bear in mind is that you are talking about the whole topic in such an abstract manner, whereas, in fact, gender is a lived experience for every human being.

Perhaps it is all about polarisation, and a tendency to see the other as the enemy. I think that the psychoanalyst makes a useful point in speaking about the paranoid schizoid position, as a development in the way we make splits in order to defend our position and this probably becomes apparent in groups, with projection of hostility onto the perceived others.

Actually, you have just reminded me of David Icke's idea that the royal family shapeshift to become reptiles...

He does look like he is in a rather strange state of being.

You're quite a fan of Paul Simon. I do like him, especially Graceland album.

I was interested in your remark to Madfool about how clinical paranoia. I do believe that these are exaggerated defense mechanisms. It seems that people can develop fantastic stories in order to protect themselves physically, as well as psychologically.

I have not come across that particular quote from Nietzsche and it is a great quote. I also really like your images of 'pessimism as a tall tree with short roots'. I do believe that pessimism needs to be balanced with some optimism. It really would seem like a tall tree which may get blown down in the wind and storms.

It does seem that the whole approach to alcohol problems, even AA is based on a disease model. However, a lot of the people with alcohol issues seem to be the ones who label themselves alcoholics, although I think that they are probably doing this to acknowledge that it is a problem.

I am vaguely aware of the SMART recovery goal approach. What is the more preferable term instead of 'alcoholic'? I know that there is a whole spectrum of dual diagnosis.Unfortunately, most forms of diagnosis come from a disease model. I do favour the recovery approach model in general.We could even ask to what extent psychiatry psychoanalysis and other psychological approaches begin from pessimism or optimism? As models they do begin from certain perspective about human nature.

We would definitely need to omit the 12 step approach. Even though you say AA is for reform, I think that some people use it to offload, because many alcoholics probably have very difficult life experiences to share.

Perhaps it would be Pessimists Anonymous.

My music gets much darker. My pessimistic music includes The Doors, the Jesus and Mary Chain and an ultimate album for being down is Slipknot's, 'When All Hope is Gone.' Actually, I find that extremely dark music can lift my mood significantly, but it has to be the right music at the right time. It is all so subjective, but, personally, when listening to music it can be about transmuting the darkness within. I am probably a bit of a gothic pessimist.

So how do you think communal pessimism would take place? Do you think that it would be about people sharing their experiences in a group? I do believe that there would have to be very firm boundaries because group dynamics are so complex. My own experience of groups is that often certain people dominate. Do you think it would need a leader?

I did once take part in a philosophy group which was more about sharing experiences. Of course, in groups some people feel more comfortable about sharing than others, and probably this depends on how much similarity and difference there is amongst the group.

Of course, Freud's original idea was really one of catharsis, rather than of telling people that they should get better. Freud's philosophy was fairly pessimistic too.

I do believe that the arts, especially writing are a form of ventilating the experience of suffering. Diaries and journals can be a way of exploring difficulties. I have just come across a relevant quote from Kafka:
'I don't mean, of course, that my life is better when I don't write. Rather, it is much worse then and wholly unbearable and has to end in madness.'

One book which I believe is essential for understanding suffering and absurdity is Colin Wilson's, 'The Outsider'. He looks at the life and suffering of many creative individuals, including Nietzsche, Camus and Van Gogh. He does see the experience of suffering as an essential aspect of creativity. However, he does go beyond pessimism in speaking of peak experiences. So, we can ask whether the experience of anguish can give way to the possibility of peak experiences, or heightened states of creativity?

I have been in some experiential psychotherapy groups which seem to operate along those lines. But, we can also ask to what extent is moaning useful? Also, if done in a group rather than complaining about life it can become a matter of complaining about each other.

This is your first post, so welcome to the forum. You make some important points, especially in saying that the question of pessimism and optimism seems to be one arising in facing uncertainty. It does seem that it is this which gives a need for approaching life with an optimistic or pessimistic viewpoint.

I do think that you are right to say that it is a matter of disposition. You say that you feel that the best starting point is pessimism. I am still a bit divided, thinking that both are important ways of seeing. I feel that it is worth zooming on each at different times. I am not sure if that means that I am just sitting on the fence. However, I believe in the importance of seeing problems with as much realism as possible. However, I do like to approach them with a certain amount of positivity too.

I am surprised that you could not function for about a month after reading Schopenhauer's ideas, especially on desire. I read his essays on pessimism this morning and feel perfectly okay. However, I have probably read many other writers on desires, and I was brought up with Christianity, so I probably reached the climax of such thinking a long while ago.

It is hard sometimes to face the world with 'a cheery face' when faced with a pessimistic philosophy. However, I do think our own life circumstances do affect mood so much. Even then, situations in the world can affect us. I find that if I watch a lot of news I get rather downcast, but, at the same time, I do want to be aware of what is going on. I don't want to be living in some kind of balloon floating over the world, oblivious to suffering.

The anthropology of religion is an area I find fascinating. I have read Eliade's, 'The Sacred and the Profane'. I have dipped into Levi Strauss, but I find his writing a bit dry too. Have you read, 'Purity and Danger', by Mary Douglas?

Jung's ideas have been the most inspiring for me. One work which I regard of central importance is his, 'Answer to Job', for its whole analysis and interpretation of the Judeo-Christian image of God. Also, I like his whole understanding of Eastern religions.

Really, I like reading around the whole area of symbolism, including the writings of Joseph Campbell, as well as Rudolf Otto's approach to numinousity. I am also fascinated by many esoteric writers, especially Rudolf Steiner.

I have been reading, 'The Essays of Arthur Schopenhauer: Studies in Pessimism, ' this morning and found it a good book to read. One aspect which I was quite surprised by was the way he sees Christianity as a form of pessimism, in its whole emphasis upon sin. Having been brought up within the tradition of Christianity, I had never really thought about it as a pessimistic philosophy. However, I certainly have worried about sinfulness.

Generally, I have read more in psychology than philosophy about despair, especially in depth psychology. One book which stands out for me is, 'Suicide and the Soul,' by James Hillman which looks at the whole experience of despair. I have known people who have committed suicide and I have also worked with people who are suicidal in mental health care and it does seem that it is necessary to enable people who are feeling despairing and suicidal to understand the depths of despair, rather than just short circuit into an attempt to fight the negative. I do think that the philosophy of pessimism can probably do this to some extent, almost as a form of consolation.

I am inclined to think we all need to find the right balance between pessimism and optimism. Certainly, I feel that I need to juggle them to adjust to the fluctuations in my own mental state. I find that I need both the insights of pessimistic philosophy, as well as some positive thinking to make sense of life, like the yin and the yang.

I am glad that you can see the link between pessimism and mood. I am definitely not in favour of a whole empty philosophy of happiness but sometimes when I read too much in the direction of nihilism I find that I sink into melancholia. The term is not used that much now, or certainly not within psychiatry. However, going back to my time as a teenager, reading in a library, I can remember reading, 'The Anatomy of Melancholy', by Robert Burton.

I do think that it is easy for a general sense of disappointment in life to overlap with a whole philosophy of pessimism, and it seems that the two can collude together. Generally, I think those who experience more unhappiness are more likely to gravitate towards a pessimistic philosophy. I think it is how far one decides to go, because it can become a downward spiral.

However, perhaps it is also important to acknowledge the pits of despair. One of my favourite quotes from Carl Jung is, 'I live in my deepest hell and from there I cannot fall any further.' One idea which Jung refers to is the idea of enantiodromia by Heraclitus, which refers to the way in which when one of the poles is reached to the extreme, there is often a natural swing to the opposite one. Certainly, I find that if I get into a really negative state, it often seems that at some point, I swing to the a really positive swing. But, I am aware of people who seem to live most of the time in a state of negativity or positivity. I feel that I have a constant battle within myself between a general outlook of pessimism and optimism.

I am about to log off for the night, but it is an interesting idea that modern philosophy begins with despair.

It is interesting that pessimism and asceticism can be linked because in some ways it could give rise to the view that nothing matters and that, therefore, everything is permitted, or this may be more of a modern take on nihilism.

Anyway, its almost midnight, so I am going to log off now, but will reply to any further comments tomorrow.

I have got a few books by Schopenhauer on my Kindle. Which do you recommend, because he has written a lot? I also realise that he is your mentor in some ways, but do you have other authors who inspire you, although maybe 'inspire' you? Perhaps the word 'inspire' is the wrong one to use in talking about pessimism.

I am seeing your reply come up as I am writing. The books I have by Schopenhauer seem to be collections, but I will look out for 'World and Representation' when bookshops and libraries reopen.

I think a bit puzzled why you think that monks are pessimists, and not sure why asceticism comes into the picture necessarily.