I found page 13 of the thread extremely difficult, mainly due to the tension between literal and non literal interpretation of scriptures. When I was struggling with page 13, feeling grateful that the topic had continued for this many pages, I wondered about my own superstitions surrounding the figure of thirteen. The irrationality arises unexpectedly. I was once surprised by a psychiatrist, who I don't believe was religious, suggesting that by certain talk that I might cause jinxes. Anyway, I still believe that this thread is a way of bringing forth areas of discussion, for myself and others.

I have just seen your second post, which I think that you may have written as I was writing this one. I do agree with your perspective of disadvantage. I have a number of areas, including some eyesight problems, which do even have some effect on my reading on this site.

While I do believe that it can be that the limitations of our bodies, and our perceptions of these, can be limiting, I do believe that they can be a starting point for a far deeper quest for further critical evaluation.

I think that you make some very important points in considering the whole way in which the body can be seen as problematic. This involves the perspective of the disabled, intersex and gender dysphoric people, but also, many others who feel limited by their bodies, including those who simply feel ugly. Even those who feel beautiful may see this as a limitation on the way they perceive reality.

The whole way in which you say about what philosophers speaking about, including self and consciousness, as arising from the the body is why I am raising the whole topic of having a physical body, and what this means in terms of experience.

Your discussion of two people is interesting, but it does raise the question of how much beauty is equated with the female and male with intellect. I think that this is changing with so many women being seen as of intellectual ability and so the whole area of glamour of popstars is collapsing the balance of the gender divide.

However, we are still stuck in bodies, for better or worse. I do think that self esteem is important and this relates to how we see ourselves fitting in with the whole spectrum of ugliness and beauty. Stereotypes can be limiting, and I do think that the whole construction of self worth is related to this, in ideals of self. Perhaps Narcissus is exploding and imploding in our own personal mirrors of identity construction.

I believe that this is part body and part mind. We may be struggling with our appearances, but also, in our ethical ideals. However, I do think that our sense of low worth can impinge on our perceptions of life and everything. On the other hand, this can give rise to creative possibilities.

I am so glad that you are keeping up the discussion. It is interesting that you do prefer a literal interpretation of the Bible. I am a bit more on the esoteric level, but I think that there is a whole spectrum of possibilities, ranging from the exoteric and esoteric.

I have not forgotten the thread I started, but need time and creation of new threads, because the matters discussed are extremely complex and need careful thought. However, I think that you are doing so well, in keeping discussion alive.

Extra: I am trying to combine the way aesthetics of self, and in the social dimension, affects upon our perception and understanding as individual beings, in physical bodily form, as an essential aspect of experience, as we try to grasp our philosophical understandings.

I am certainly wanting to avoid devilish viruses, and also trying to digest and think about all the ideas arising on this thread. I am glad that it has got the amount of response it has, and hope this continues, but I often feel the need to reflect, because there are a lot of deep questions. Of course, I do not see myself as having all the answers but I am trying to respond to it in such a way that it can be a springboard for people's exploration. In the meantime, I have just thought of a question for people who think about, because I do like to ask questions.

Yes, I guess this is strange, and it sometimes seems that Catholics, and I am sure other groups of religious people, tune into aspects of religion but not in their entirety. I feel that I have questioned Catholic views in many ways. I have chosen to keep that from my parents, partly to protect them and partly to protect myself because I need private space to explore ideas freely.

Strangely, the links worked for me and it is strange indeed because a lot of the links people put on this site don't seem to work from my phone. And, the link provided me with a whole free book, instantly downloaded onto my phone. I have had parts of books or an article downloaded on my phone but never a whole book, so thank you for enabling me to read this, like a gift from the divine. It is very interesting to me because it links Taoism and shamanism, both of which I find extremely interesting.

I will have a read and reply to the content of your post later today when I have read more of the book as I am starting chapter 4 of the book. Also, for anyone else who is reading this post, I recommend logging into the second link which Amity provided to see if you receive this book like I have done. I think it all depends on signals and locations, and perhaps, also, a few mysterious factors.

These are beautiful paintings. I have never seen them before, even though I have studied a certain amount of history of art. The two pictures of the women seem very contemporary, with the whole presence of light, and the two men are very unusual looking, almost like characters from gothic fantasy.

One of my funny experiences was how when I was about 19 I had a book by Nietzsche, with a romantic painting of a naked woman on the cover. My Catholic mother thought that it was not right for me to be reading a book with this picture on the cover. She went out and bought a piece of wrapping paper and insisted I cover the book.

I do see your view of how people can begin seeking therapy, get labelled and end going down a whole chain of being seen as lesser and end up getting scorned and rejected. It is a sad reality which often makes people wish to avoid seeking therapy when they are feeling really desperate.Of course, this is in contrast to the way in which it is seen as necessary for all forms of suffering. So, it is hard for people to know at what point to ask for help. Some may be advised to do so by others, but even then, the advice may not always be the best. Perhaps, misconceptions about therapy are part of the problem and a whole demystification of the therapy process is needed.

On the other hand, I have known people who become so dependent on therapy. Perhaps this is a result of having someone who listens to their suffering. I think that the idea which I have seen in some CBT interventions, of trying to enable the person to become his or her and therapist is particularly helpful is one of the best. Also, I think that now, there are more self-help books which can make it possible to learn useful knowledge for working on personal problems without having to go down the official pathway of accessing therapy. Also, there are books which teach techniques of mindfulness meditation in other useful ones.

In one of my initial posts, I said that I thought on-line CBT therapy may be inadequate, but that probably applies to the point where people have got too unwell for this to be sufficient. However, for some people who are struggling mildly, such support available on-line may be worthwhile. I would say that it is when the person really feels that they are struggling beyond that which they can cope with that the need for professional help comes in. Hopefully, there will be more accessible therapies available and I think that this does vary depending on country and location.

I had no idea this was happening and it seems as though it is within England, where I am. I did hear one woman saying that her son was put in seclusion and never really knew what she meant. I am familiar with the idea of seclusion in psychiatry and that is about someone being put into a padded area for safety to self and others, but only after an event of severe aggression. The idea in psychiatry is about managing violence and aggression safely, until medication works, and is not about punishment.

I agree with you completely. Most people seem to just look up information on Wikipedia as if it has all the answers summed up, as if it is the new 'wise' philosopher. That is why I get a bit annoyed when people just create links to it. I use it as a basis for looking at potential for research and for a reference for thinking through ideas.

There is a big difference between information and knowledge and I think that the main difference is the way in which knowledge is a more thorough exploration of ideas, especially in terms of personal belief. Of course, even with people using books it is possible to just use them in a superficial way. However, it is probably less common than with the internet, because so often, including on this forum, people offer a link to someone else's ideas, but with no further elaboration of the meaning and significance of the ideas.

The whole question as to whether people really believe what they claim to believe is a good one and it also raises the question of social pressure to believe certain things. Do people hold on to beliefs systems in name for fear of rejection and lack of popularity? If they hold onto the beliefs because they have not explored contradictions in their thinking it does seem that they are self deception. Does that mean that they are afraid to explore further?

I don't have any experience of working in schools or mental health services for children, so I am not aware of any practices of sensory deprivation. It sounds very worrying.

I do believe that there is some relationships between ADHD and autistic spectrum disorders. That is because I am aware of many individuals who have been diagnosed as being on the autistic spectrum, and often diagnosed as having Asperger's syndrome, having been diagnosed as ADHD in childhood. One particular area of adjustment which is viewed in the research on Asperger's syndrome is the whole way in which these people seem to lack a theory of mind. They are often seen as lacking in empathy and this is connected to lack of ability to read other people's emotions and thoughts.

I have come across suggestions that some of the most creative thinkers, including Kant may have been on the autistic spectrum, but, of course, this is pure speculation. Would we say that Kant needed therapy? It is all a matter of perspective. Beyond the issue of autism, we could also ask what would have happened if other creative thinkers, such as Van Gogh and William Blake been seen from the standpoint of present day psychiatry. Perhaps they would have been prescribed antipsychotics and mood stabilizers, which are being combined commonly more recently. They might have experienced calmer lives, but would they have produced their greatest creative works?

You speak of, 'Psychiatry as a substitute for corporal punishment_ the chemical cohosh returns'. I think that it is a far better idea to address behavioral disturbances in children through medication and therapy rather than simply punishing it. I am thinking of particular difficulties identified, such as ADHD and autistic disorders. There is a definite area of research correlating autistic spectrum disorders with genetics. One particular form of therapy which can be helpful for this is art therapy because it seems to enable communication without speech being necessary. Art therapy is often found to be a helpful way for working with other difficulties in children, including trauma. One helpful way of seeing trauma is offered by Rebecca Marks, in 'Understanding and Healing Trauma'. She says,
'Trauma causes a build up of physical anxiety, and our physical responses become the new enemy. Our biggest fear becomes fear itself.'

I do believe that trauma in children and adults needs to be worked with. It may be the underlying cause of many problems people have in life beyond childhood too.

I think that you are correct to say that religion provides political power. I probably have not read that much about Islam to know its compatibility with the West. As I am living in a part of London where I am surrounded by Islamic people, shops and a mosque, I do wonder how it works, and I don't know. Perhaps the Muslims censor themselves in what they say, including what they reveal to me. So, on the forum and in real life there are probably many areas of conspicuous silence.

It is an interesting area of discussion and I have never discussed this side of Islam with the specific people who I know. The area I live in, Tooting, is Asian dominated, with a mix of Hindu and Muslim people, so I mix with Muslims on a daily basis. I really don't know how the fundamentalist aspects of the religion affect their lives. Muslim women and girls don't seem particularly oppressed. I imagine that it comes down to the cultural interpretation of the views.

I have to admit that I have never read any of the Quran. That is because I struggled enough with the Bible when I was a teenager, worrying about hell and damnation. The fear of hell is a bit separate from the political aspects of religion, although the ideas such as hell can be used to back up all kinds of political oppression. But, generally I see religious fundamentalism as a form of oppression.

Apart from Madfool's discussion about women's dress, Islam doesn't seem to be discussed much on the forum. I am not sure why.

I am definitely not criticising Christianity above all religions. My comment about people finding comfort in Christianity is based on the tradition I was raised in. Also, this particular thread was about the Bible.

Actually, I am interested in the whole discussion of comparative religion and my own thread on religion was meant to be general but the majority of people who engaged in discussion with me focused upon Christianity. Strangely, no one discussed Islam. Personally, I have never felt drawn towards Islam but I am not against it. I have friends who are Muslim and they are very open minded people. I think that stereotypes around terrorism do a lot of harm to perceptions of Islam.

Really, I am not against religion in general, but more interested in the esoteric side of religion, including Christianity, and the aspect of Islam which I would like to read more about is Sufism.

I do agree that suffering is part of life and it doesn't necessarily call for medication or therapy, but I do think it is variable. One factor is that some have family or close friends to turn to and others don't. It would be ideal if we all had people to turn to when we going through really unpleasant experiences, and could be equally supportive in listening to others. Perhaps this ideal is not stressed enough in Western culture.

I think that you make a very good point in saying about the way in which will is important and in most of the literature on depression which I have read this does not seem to be really explored. I do believe that it is possible for a person's sense of will to be broken. I am sure that will plays a major factor in biochemistry, with potential implications for depression and physical illness. It may be that is the whole will which may have to be repaired or healed within therapy.

The discussion of attention span, as referred to in the article link, is interesting. Generally, I think that many people I come across have an extremely short attention span. I find that in conversations and people often focus on the external environment constantly. I have even had people criticise me for the extent that I can get so immersed in a task, especially reading, that I can switch off the outer world, almost. However, I do believe that focused attention is important, so it is good to hear of a writer who is concerned with it. I do believe that it is important to be able to focus fully on another, as well as within, as inner space. I do believe that inner space is the domain of conscious evolution.

Your point 'despair is a mental health problem' is interesting, but it is a very debatable one. That is because on, one hand, it can be a cognitive state resulting from brain chemistry. Some people who are in a state of extreme despair, notice an immense relief due to antidepressants, whereas others don't notice much at all. Of course, it can be about adjusting the dose or of finding a different one which works. However, the opposing arguments against despair as a mental health problem is the one in which despair can be seen as a response to horrible life conditions.

One book about and despair is 'Suicide and the Soul' by James Hillman, which looks at the whole meaning of despair and what it means to live without hope. Hillman looks at the whole way in which suicidal thoughts and feelings exist for people. He also looks at the way in which the whole meaning of despair needs to be faced in its profound depths. He suggests that the suicidal ideas may exist like a whole wish for some kind of symbolic rebirth within life.

I have known people diagnosed with mental health problems who have found great meaning in the antipsychiatry movement. When I did my mental health nurse training, I don't think that the approach even got any mention at all. The main way I knew of the antipsychiatry was because I studied the sociology of mental illness as part of sociology 'A' level, meaning that I studied it prior to any formal study of psychiatric disorders. I was really impressed by Laing's book, 'The Divided Self' for his whole critique of the way in which contradictions in messages in socialisation in the family give contradictions messages. I think that this is an important idea which is worth holding on to and should be embraced within psychiatry more.

There is an inherent tension within psychiatry between trying to adjust people to fitting in to the norms of society and of enabling them to find ways of fulfilling their own aspirations. The people who are seen as more outside the norm may be viewed as more unwell. I am sure this varies according to social contexts. Within psychiatry in England, I think that there has been a positive move towards recovery based models of care, which are aimed at people identifying their own goals to work towards. There are even recovery colleges, which run courses for working on specific issues. Another move is the existence of crisis telephone helpline, so I would say that things may be going in a positive direction.

Your point about therapy approaches which don't pathologise but see it as necessary for life issues is important. However, part of the problem comes down to funding. In England, most but not all therapy is costly, whereas you can access it without payment through for free through the NHS system although there are often long waiting lists.However, getting referred for therapy is complex and mostly comes through mental health teams, so that is where the use of diagnosis comes in.
Also, the need for therapy is often seen as based on the severity of the mental health problems. I knew a woman who was fairly pleased when she got diagnosed with borderline personality disorder because she realised on that basis she would be able to access forms of therapy which would have been otherwise not available for her.

Many private therapists work as self-employed and in their own homes. Often, the way they make their living is through giving therapy to trainee therapists. These people are the ones willing to pay because it is mandatory for most trainee therapists to be in therapy while training and many qualified therapists may continue to be in therapy. This means that psychotherapy and art therapy can become almost a closed circle. Also, the person pursuing a career a career in art therapy is also taking the path of personal therapy, and knowing oneself.

You are right to say that Complex Post Traumatic Disorder is a diagnosis in its own right, even though people who have other disorders may have a significant history of trauma. Part of the problem is the whole question of labels. They are useful for clinicians in thinking about treatment options but they can be stigmatising. That was the point I was really making about the label of personality disorder.

In thinking about this, one other area is the antipsychiatry movement. Writers such as RD Laing and Thomas Szaz looked at ways in which diagnostic labels can be used to pathologise misery and suffering. Such writers argued that it created a whole myth of mental illness. This movement went out of fashion, probably because it underplayed the reality of mental illness. However, the antipsychiatry movement does offer some insight for critical thinking about the way psychiatric labels are applied to individuals.

I do agree.The people we turn to for help, including counsellors and therapists, can be the ones who give us the most difficulties. One of the problems can be when they think that they know what's best for us, or even understand us, better than we do ourselves. When I was in therapy, I had a therapist who said he could see what I was saying from a more objective point of view. Even though counsellors and therapists are not meant to give advice, I think that it is likely that many do.

Ultimately, the quest within therapy is to gain self knowledge. This may or may not happen. Sometimes, I find reading books on therapy and related topics better than going to see a therapist. I don't know if this is because it cuts out some of the stress of talking to the other person, although it this would seem to defeat the whole idea of needing to be listened to. Alternatively, I do wonder if it is because the writers of the books are more insightful and wise than the people who have have jobs as therapists. Generally, I find reading books by 'wise' writers one of the best forms of therapy personally, because it often gives me the best insights which I can reflect on in the process of acquiring self knowledge.

I didn't know that Simone Weil was the patron saint of outsiders. That makes me more interested in her because I have always felt like an outsider. One of my favourite books is 'The Outsider" by Colin Wilson. I don't know if you have read it. It looks at a lot of creative people, including many existentialist philosophers. I don't think it mentions her. My copy is in my mother 's house, so I will check whether or not Simone Weil gets a mention in the book when I am able to visit my mother. I find Colin Wilson to be a very interesting writer for the whole way in which he focuses upon the search for peak experiences.

Of course, another option available for some people is over the counter remedies. Doctors seem to have mixed opinions about this and some are opposed to it. I know that most psychiatrists caution against it but that is because it can interact with prescribed medications. In particular, one of the most popular remedies for depression, St John's Wort is dangerous if mixed with prescription antidepressants and other forms of medication.But, once when I went to one GP and said that I felt that I needed something for anxiety and sleeping, the doctor suggested that I went to a health shop and looked for something.

The best remedy I found was Passiflora and I do use it for sleeping frequently and it is virtually free from side-effects. I tried Valerian and it made me feel awful. If I buy any remedy I try to do a bit of research on it. I did try CBD oil capsules briefly and apart from being expensive, I didn't notice anything at all. I have also tried some Bach Flower Remedies and aromatherapy oils and wasn't sure whether they had any effect or not. But, I do think that trying methods to help us relax is worthwhile. However, I think That some people can get carried away with remedies and it can be dangerous if people don't know enough about what they are doing, and, for example, just take mega doses of vitamins which they probably don't need. But I am an experimenter and I even play self hypnosis CDs in bed sometimes.

Yes, one of the big issues for Catholics is abortion and it probably puts women in a lot of conflict. I can remember being at church and hearing the pro-life campaigners. I am not sure what all the other religions think about abortion. I think that the Catholic church is also opposed by contraception but I don't think that many adhere to that. But the idea of sex in the Catholic church is very controversial indeed. One of my memories is being at my local youth club when we was growing up and a song which was often played was, 'Tainted Love'.

Despite my initial dismay when you quoted the Biblical idea of the beast of Revelation, I have come to the conclusion that the idea of the beast is a powerful truth. We probably all have a beast within ourselves and an inner antichrist.

It definitely seems that women are more likely to get diagnosed with borderline whereas men with antisocial personality disorders. I have to say that I find the whole area of personality disorders. However, there is a lot of stigma and I think that the label PTSD would be preferable in many ways. When I worked in an acute admissions unit, a lot of the staff were very judgemental in their attitude and the term 'PD' was often used by some of the staff in a critical tone.

Therapy definitely seems to help with trauma, more especially the psychoanalytic kind because it seems to focus on the past. I have come across people with OCD, who also had a history of trauma and they were given behavior programs to address their OCD and felt that their trauma was ignored in the context of a CBT approach. One other therapy which people often say that they feel benefits trauma is art therapy. I began, but did not complete training in art psychotherapy. Unfortunately, in England and I don't know about in other countries, art therapies seem to be becoming marginalised and I think that this is because they are not seen as cost effective.

I think that it is important to treat depression, but it is getting so common for doctors to prescribe antidepressants routinely. I am not opposed to this but do think that sadness is becoming a bit too overmedicalised. Also, the other complicated is becoming overdependent, upon them and it can be difficult to come off them. I have seen people being treated by ECT as well. I was initially opposed to it, especially as some people experience memory loss due to it. However, it does seem to work wonders for some, especially elderly people. Generally, even doctors don't seem to know why and the way it works is a bit of a mystery. But I am not sure how ECT would address nihilism.

I can think of one connection, which is the homeopathic remedy, Nat Mur. That is made from sodium chloride, obviously in minute proportions because that is how homeopathy works. Nat Mur is one of the essential remedies in homeopathy for a combination of physical and emotional problems.

It does seem that esoteric Christianity was pushed underground, and you are correct in saying that Aquinas and Augustine's interpretation of the Greek writings was central to the way in which mainstream Christians developed.

Most Christians today, as far as I am aware, seem to come from the exoteric angle. I know that many mainstream Christians are opposed to that particular churchI believe that there is one more esoteric in London, St James, in Piccadilly. I have never been, but I might go there, if lockdown restrictions ever end. I do go to an esoteric bookshop in London. They have such an interesting collection and I would imagine there is a section on esoteric Christianity. I definitely plan to explore further.

The quotation from Maurice Nicholi makes a lot of sense to me. I can definitely cope with the move esoteric interpretations of the gospels. I have read some books on this esoteric approach, including one on Celtic Christianity. I would like to read Plotinus too. I have read some of the writings by Rudolf Steiner and Emmanuel Swedenborg , which may be slightly outside of this tradition, but they are also specific esoteric interpretations. I definitely see evolution, as opposed to devolution as being an inner process. That is probably why I read Jung, because he looks at Christianity, including the apocalyptic writings on a symbolic rather literal level. On the subject of the beast, we could say this is probably represented as the collective shadow.

I believe that it is not possible to predict future states of mind, because sometimes it as if they arise out of nowhere, as well as life events being unpredictable. Certainly, that is my own experience. Perhaps, what we are able to do is to think about how depression and nihilism can be distinguished because disentangling the two can be difficult. I have come across people who find this so hard to do because they feel unable to articulate these experiences.

PTSD is a very interesting area in relation to therapy because often people who have this do not get a full response to treatment by medication. They often seek therapy because they need help processing their experience. If people have been in the army they may get diagnosed with PTSD, however, many people who have complex traumatic history get given the label of borderline personality disorder. Have you come across this approach to trauma in the labelling by some professionals?

You mention the ecstatic and I do get states of that too, but I do know some people who experience continual flatness. They are always miserable. I often get euphoric about music and sometimes music about despair enables me to get high, as if it is transmitted.

Yesterday, I had a really strange experience. I had been feeling run down, with a slight sore throat and lack of appetite, but not so bad that I had to stay in bed. My mood was about average and, then, for no apparent reason, I felt this intense warm energy pulsating through my body and a sense of euphoria which lasted for a couple of hours, until I fell asleep. The heat sensation was a strange one because, normally, I don't like being hot, especially in bed. However, this almost felt like some kundalini experience of awakening.

I do agree that it is possible to be ecstatic as a nihilist. However, I believe that it is complicated because for some the nihilism leads to suicidal despair. Some people with despair over lack of meaning in life do present to mental health services, looking for possible interventions. We could ask to what extent is despair a mental health problem?