The process of bringing forth creative ideas may be like digging in the ground. But some seem to have got it down to a fine art. To some extent it may be possible to improve by practice but it does seem that some are so much better naturally, just as some have natural ability at football and cooking. There are many books on creative writing but this can also be procrastination about writing. Even my thread may be so, but I do find it helpful to discuss the creative process and it seems that so many people on this forum are so creative and probably a lot of untapped potential.There are some that take up a task like watercolour painting or poetry much later on and discover an entire side to themselves when was undiscovered previously.

The seeds of creative expression most probably stem from childhood. Apart from being an actress my mother went through a stage of writing song lyrics. It started when she used to read the lyrics to songs with me, and she began replying to ads in the NME and had many of her lyrics put to music. My dad used to get really cross about it, but I thought the songs were good and remember some, ' Paper Boats', 'The Waves Roll On', and so many more.

My dad did work in construction and he would have liked me to go down a Maths direction. I didn't like Maths at all. The arts, especially drawing was what I found to be an interest. However, visual art can be about performance. I remember how stressed out I got a few times when I couldn't get my art as people expected me to be able to. The painting I did of a playground for my art GCSE didn't turn out as I wished. I think that I rushed it and then overpainted it in the exam conditions.

Being watched performing can also be stressful. One thing which I learned in art therapy was that aiming for excellence can be a stumbling block. However, it is complicated because as human beings performance is measured according to standards and is also an act of communication. Even on this forum, writing philosophy is done as an act of public performance and goes online which makes it rather different from the way ideas are jotted down in a private diary or journal.

I have read some writing by Stravinsky and it is probably useful to think about the processes of performance and acting. At age 10 or 11, I was due to take part in a school drama and got so hung up getting on the stage, which involved crossing a gap across the floor. This may have been the end of my acting career, possibly a disappointment for my mum who acted in many plays. But, she was pleased by the way I pursued drawing and painting.

Reflecting on my fear of going on stage in relation to creative performance it leads me to ponder the nature of creative blocks. Many be afraid to draw, paint and there is also the issue of writers' block. Even when I used to write essays I have often had to psyche myself up. There is the fear of the blank page, and the fear of performance, especially in relation to the ideals of perfection of being a failure or success, in other people's estimation and in in one's own. This may hold back experimentation and spontaneity.

To be too creative, or not creative enough may be the question.. How may this fine tightrope walk be trodden cautiously, bravely and safely?

I think that we need to keep a sense of humour to survive and as a source of creativity. Yes, I am still looking for somewhere to live but it may not happen until after Christmas. In the meantime, I will try to plod on leaning on the broken bed and my chaotic room, as my underlying chaotic demiuurge, as a source of potential creativity, as Nietzsche said : 'Chaos gives birth to a dancing star'.

Generally, I think that this forum is a great interactive way of learning. Of course, there are times when the threads going are of lesser personal interest than others and there is so much scope for creating threads. I discovered this forum over 2 years ago, and when I look back on it I think that I have done as much reading, writing and thinking as I did on my undergraduate course.

And, there is some fun as well. When the Shoutbox moved onto the front page I wondered what it was. But, now, I see it as a lighter side and more informal, and with the story threads as being complementary. There are also so many different voices from people of all kinds of backgrounds, so I find it to be such a useful learning resource and enjoyable too.

The idea of the Hindu trinity is interesting. Personally, what I find most interesting is the fantastic imagery of Hindu art more than simply the specific concepts. The various images represented by the different deities are so powerful.

An interesting comparison- creativity being like pornography. There is also the question as to what extent is pornography creative? Here, it could be argued that pornography reduces bodies to being sex objects for display. However, what about erotic art and the potentials of the erotic imagination in creativity? Colin Wilson, most famous for 'The Outsider' looked at the sexual impulse in relation to transcendent states of consciousness in some of his writings.

I have always loved the yin and yang symbol. I once had a hoodie displaying it. The idea of repetition being ugly is important because it does seem that monotony is problematic. We even need the swings to the poles to make life interesting, although I often feel that I don't get enough in between times. Often, there are more downs than ups. Also, I find that so often after a positive comes a down, almost leading me to fear what comes next after an up. But, it may be that creativity and aesthetics is about arranging all the patterns in one's mind eye.

Your discussion of the Tarot is interesting because it includes the symbolic meanings. In thinking about the Tarot both this and the idea of divination are involved. Of course it is possible to see the symbolic aspects and intuition of life as being involved as opposed to literal fortune telling.

I have never used the Tarot but I once had a girl do a reading for me when I was living in a student hall of residence. The thing was she did the reading and was so stressed out because she said it was the most disturbing spread of cards she had ever seen. I wasn't that surprised because I knew that I had a rather upside down life!

While I haven't consulted Tarot cards, I did go through a phase of using the I Ching. I found it fairly helpful for decision making although it became a bit addictive. It may be that the oracles can give intuition about future dangers but there is a danger of literalism. I have known people who have gone to fortune tellers and getting really freaked out. For example, I knew someone who was told that her father was going to die and was so stressed for many years about this and the warning was not true, other than probably showing how how much about how important her father was to her.

I guess it does depend on what one understands opposites to be. It is a fuzzy concept because they are not aspects with clear distinct boundaries. That is because to some extent they are socially constructed rather than 'out there' metaphysics. This applies to concepts like good and evil, masculine and feminine as well as love and hate. It may be that Jung himself ignores the social construction of ideas with a tendency to treat the ideas as actual metaphysics. This probably stems from how he blends so many ideas together and this may limit the scope of his arguments from a critical philosophy perspective.

The Greeks don't discuss yin and yang as such but Heraclitus's ideas of opposites are fairly parallel.
As far as my own understanding of yin and yang is connected to my own grasping of creativity is in thinking about destruction as the opposite process. I am aware of having an inner saboteur and see myself as my own worst enemy at times. For example, I am rather chaotic. I often get my room so messed up that I hate being in it. I also do get into negative states of mind.

In thinking about the battle between destruction and creativity it connects with Jung's idea of the integration of the shadow. I read about this in Jung's book, ' Answer to Job' which I am sure I have spoken about in other threads. It does look at the collective shadow but is also relevant for thinking about the personal issues with the shadow. It was in the discussion of opposites there that I read about the ideas of Heraclitus.
.

I first came across the idea of the yin and the yang in Jung's writings. The idea of poles come into it and Heraclitus's concept of enantiodromia is important, with the extremes having been reached leading to the opposite. I am not sure how this would follow with beauty because what is seen as ugly doesn't necessarily become beautiful. However, familiarity may be important and taste being acquired. There have been songs which I hated on first listen but over a time grew to love.

I haven't read much on advaita but I may try to do so at some point. Some philosophies seem so dualistic, including Christianity. As far as beauty is seen there are some contrasts such as the gargoyles in churches and the Gothic.

Many don't appreciate creative people and have the attitude that they should get a 'proper job'. It is also difficult to make money out of creativity although people who are creative in science and technology probably manage to do so much more than in the arts. I do have a couple of friends who try to make money out of art and painting. However, they do struggle to do this, and have to teach classes as well as do their art. Apart from people who are really successful in the arts, and get to the top, the majority don't make much money from it and do it more az a hobby. Some have day jobs and a lot of arty people are a bit bohemian and find it hard to fit to fit in to the point of holding down a job, Even with scientists there is the archetypal picture of the eccentric professor, although that may be a bit of a stereotype.

I was surprised to discover that in spite of his emphasis on objectivity in general, Kant, in his discussion of aesthetic judgment places a large emphasis on its subjectivity.

Do you see the yin and yang as representing "ugly disfigurement'. I see it as being about the essential nature of opposites. Without the interplay of opposites there would be no good, heaven or happiness. Of course, there are shades in between the two.

Even with intersubjective aspects of consensus there is a lot of variation in aesthetic tastes. Even with physical appearance of people, and recognised standards of beauty, not everyone is attracted to the exact same people. Also, with even people who not attractive to many, they usually have some kind of beauty if people try to find it. One of the saddest stories is probably that of 'The Elephant Man', John Merrick. One thing which I read about him though was that he had beautiful hands.

Art therapy is the practice of art expression as a way of facilitating therapy, which may be done individually with a therapist or in a group. There are various approaches to it, and the one which I am familiar with is that the psychoanalytic based one. That is because the course, which I did, but did not complete due to personal circumstances was art psychotherapy at Goldsmiths College, in South East London.

In art psychotherapy the relationship between the therapist and the patient is a central focus. Individual sessions also adopt the 50 minute hour. Throughout training all students are required to be in personal therapy and for almost a year I had therapy lying down on the couch, which I found to be an extremely unusual experience.

All art therapists, trained at the various institutions are on a register of the British Association of Art Therapists and if someone runs groups as an art therapist without undertaking the training it is actually illegal, because it is a recognised profession. So, when I was running art groups in my nursing jobs I called them 'Creative art', as opposed to calling it art therapy. Nevertheless, the term art therapy is sometimes used in a very casual way, which I am sure is frowned upon by professionals. In particular, there are various colouring books for adults which have the words 'art therapy' in the title.

It is just so hard finding somewhere in London. The reason why I have to find somewhere (and the others here) is because the landlord, who was subletting, has gone missing in Pakistan. The owner is repossesing. Mind you, I do want to move anyway because the bed here is so broken i that I slide into the base. I try to keep some humour over my bed. When I try going to the top it is like climbing up a hill. It is also such a gigantic bed that it is hard to find sheets which will fit.

I hope that you are able to read fully again and don't strain your eyes reading on a computer. Even though the stories are short there are a lot of entries and reading on screen is a strain on the eyes. Reading and writing are such a main part of your life, but music can help. it is amazing how many people have participated, and@Amity is doing so much reviewing again. At some point, it would be great if we see a story from her as well.

I did wonder if there was some reason why you had not been involved in the micro fiction because you are usually present. So, I hope that the medical interventions improve. I have been less involved because I have been trying to find somewhere to live for over 3 months and it is not easy to find anywhere, so I am still looking. At the moment in England it is colder than it has been in years and I am finding it hard to do most things.

As far as creativity is concerned it is most definitely not exclusive to the arts. Sometimes, people do see it that way and so many scientists and inventors are astoundingly creative. In some cases the creativity can encompass the whole spectrum, with individuals like Leonardo de Vinci. It is probably the situation that disciplines have become so specialised that it hard to be an all rounder. The one advantage of all the information on the internet is that it makes it so much easier to read around such a vast amount of literature on many topics allowing for a general background knowledge, as a starting point for unique innovation.

You query what I am getting at, probably in the idea for the thread. I am interested in art,including aesthetic taste. There is the question whether such taste is objective or subjective, or intersubjective. This goes back to discussion by Kant to the ideas of the phenomenological tradition. I find the approach of the phenomenologist thinkers particularly useful in this respect in relation to the experiential aspects of sensory perception. It also relates to qualia and how perception arises.

However, my main interest in the philosophy of creativity is in connection with the creative process. The understanding of the process may be so important for fine tuning one's own creativity rather than just as a theoretical discussion. I would like to become more creative, in writing and art, and all aspects of life.

I haven't interacted with you before, so I am glad to do so. I really like the name, 'Magic triangle'. It does seem that you describe the creative processes so well.

The people who stand out as geniuses are such a phenomena. It is one of the reasons why I do wonder about the possibility of reincarnation because some of the greatest writers and thinkers develop so beyond the realms of others that it makes me wonder if this development could have been achieved in one lifetime.

Of course, on the other hand it is likely that most people develop such a fraction of their potential. The 'tweaks' which some develop may bypass others habitual patterns, possible at the level of cognitive wiring. Also, with some of the geniuses it is as like they have a distinct way of seeing, like Salvador Dali. One interesting example may have been Stephen Hawking who developed such understanding, especially with his debilitating physical health issues.

Some people seem to have more interest in imaginary friends than others. Even as an adult I often find that fantasised romances are often more helpful than the real ones. This may even relate to the concept of the 'muse'. As a child I used to pretend to be various pop and rock stars and play all kinds of fantasy games. It was such fun and all this may be the essential aspect of fantasy and its role in imagination.

On the topic of autism, I have done art groups with people on the autistic spectrum. They are often very concrete in thinking and have difficulty understanding other minds. This is not just based on my experience of working with them, but important areas of research. They also benefit a lot from art therapy, often finding it easier to express themselves through art than verbally.

I am glad to see a reply from you because I was surprised that you hadn't submitted an entry for the micro fiction, so I was worriedwhetheryou were okay. I haven't submitted yet but I do plan to submit and read more in the second half. Actually, I logged on to put my entry in because I kind of thought that I had until midnight and, when I couldn't I created this thread instead.

Thanks for the link and I will read it later and I haven't even finished reading 'The Philosophy Now' issue on creativity. It probably is a topic that is too wide for a thread but I wanted it to be fairly broad because it often seems science has monopoly over the arts in philosophy. There are not that many arts based philosophy threads on this forum and the one which I enjoyed in particular was the one by @Gus Lamarch about a year ago on 'The Metaphysics of Poetry'.

On this particular forum there do appear to be so many extremely creative people and that is why I thought that it was worth making a thread on it. I do agree that the question whether creativity is valued is a very worthwhile one. My own answer is that it varies so much.

Certainly, when I was working in mental health nursing I felt creativity was being squeezed out of importance. The arts therapies were almost being phased out, for financial reasons and I found that on a day to day it was like work was becoming more and more robotic. I felt that staff were meant to be able to do just about all tasks except for arts and creativity. Even writing reports were done on templates with such strict guidelines.

Even some areas are more creative than others. I am not very keen on the area I live in because it is so lacking in art activities of any kind. If I can I prefer to spend time in places like Camden Town, but even this has become far less bohemian and arty than it used to be. Most of the record and bookshops have been closed down and so many venues where creative people used to go. Part of this may be related to so much being done online. I do like a certain amount online, such as this forum, but I do like face to face activities too.

It may be that creativity is valued by many still but its platforms are changing. Also, there is often an idea of the arts as recreation, as opposed to it as a source of meaning, which is the way in which I value the arts, and from my understanding of your approach, you are interested in a far deeper way than just as entertainment as a way to wind down from so-called 'important' tasks. About the worst work experience I had was with a manager about a couple of years ago who seemed to dismiss the arts and my interest in this in working with patients. She thought assisting them with cooking and cleaning tasks was far more important.

I just read your second post to me from yesterday. I agree about playfulness in relation to imagination. I have always loved playing because my mum encouraged so much fantasy. She used to act in plays and even once worked as a magician's assistant on stage. She also loved teddy bears and I may have come close to being called Rupert. A friend criticised her so much for her love of teddies, saying before I was born that I would probably look like a teddy. I didn't but I did like teddy bears.

One important writer on creativity is Donald Winnicott. He even brings teddies into his thinking. He sees the child's blanket and later, the teddy bears as transitioning objects. He refers to these as being important in symbolic understanding, creativity, and as a starting point for communication with others.

It is interesting to think whether the idea of aesthetic taste is evolved or not. Certainly, I have always gravitated to the arts and inner reality. I am a daydreamer and don't like practical tasks or sports, especially as I have poor physical coordination. To some extent, everyone is wired uniquely and it may go back to early patterns of learning.

Some may see the evolution of aesthetic taste as being about 'culture' and there are different perspectives. It was during my time of studying art therapy that I discovered nu metal and it felt like an encounter with 'the shadow'. Marilyn Manson was interested in Jung's ideas. In his autobiography he said how at one point he did believe that he was 'the Antichrist' literally. He got to the point where he concluded that it was symbolic. There is the question how dark should one go? Even though I still have a lot of metal and emo music I wouldn't listen to it constantly and try to get a balance. It may be about going to what shamanic practitioners describe as the upper and lower worlds.

I don't disagree with your understanding based on evolution and even Jung was ambiguous on the matter. He was juggling between biological naturalism and Kantian metaphysics. Schopenhauer tried to bring Kant's idea of the transcendent down to human experience and the will. This would be equal to understanding the numinous down to creativity in the realm of the arts. However, the question as to whether there is anything beyond is another matter and it could e lead into the quantum level of the notion of the multiverse. There is also David Bohm's idea of the explicate order and the implicate order.

I keep the widest possible understanding of what creativity means. It may be subjective. I may have a slight fixation on the notion of creativity as the two activities which I chose to do within my nursing job were creative art or creative writing groups. Of course, many may see so many activities as having creative potential and funnily enough, I don't remember any science based activities In the hospital where I worked. If I ever go back to work in mental health, perhaps I should do a creative science group. I am not sure about a philosophy group in a psychiatric setting, it may be too overstimulating and it may even provoke conflicts and literal fights!

Believe it or not, I can't get into You Tube. I like listening to albums on CD and reading books, especially paper ones. To some extent I think that the internet is changing the shape of art. There may be some positives, especially in the way that many fiction authors who would probably have never managed to publish are able to do so. Also, Kindles are wonderful. I managed to download so many classics a few years and read them, and probably would not have done so.

With music, even though you are not a pop and rock fan, one of the problems which many people find is that on music made digitally is that it is different from that made in studios. In particular, the vocals often are often muffled in what may be regarded as soundscapes.

If anything, my biggest gripe is where the arts become light entertainment as opposed to being made and appreciated as works of art. One of the reasons why records may be popular is that they give scope for sleeve artwork and lyrics to be part of the creative process.

On the topic of Plato, the question about where images come from is a question which I do wonder about a lot. That is because Plato's idea of Forms or archetypes corresponds with Jung's ideas of the collective unconscious and archetypes.

Based on my own experiences of not just dreams but also on borderline sleep experiences and lucid dreaming, I would say that they come from some kind of objective source. At times, I have visionary experiences which are like intricate art work and they seem as if they are far beyond my own rational creative power. I would like to do art based on these but it is difficult because I can't recall the exact details when my eyes are open.

However, if one does believe in the existence of the collective unconscious as objective, the realm between the personal and collective sphere may be complicated. That is because characters in novels may be sub personalities of the authors.

Generally, I think that many do not believe in the validity of the collective unconscious and the forms. This is connected to the predominant influence of physicalist models of the mind. I am aware that my own point of view is not a common one within philosophy and is more in line with esoteric ideas, especially the Hermetic tradition.
.

What I do remember is having a discussion with you at some point, in your former reincarnation identity, about urinals as art, because I had a friend who used to have many in his art. He used to create designs on them to make them look like gothic temples. This was a statement about religion and sexuality. Actually, one of my English 'A' Level teachers has written a book, 'Sin, Sex and Psychology.'

On the subject of art...I am curious about your new picture, wondering if it is really YOU. However, you may wish to keep quiet in case someone with the technology gives you a sex change...

Aesthetics appreciation is important as well as the philosophy ideas in the arts. I know people who have studied art based degrees and they have looked at aspects like aesthetic tastes from the point of view of phenomenology. I have a friend who did an art MA and wrote a paper on transience in still life.

I was probably fortunate in having the English teachers which I had, especially in sixth form. They opened up a world of philosophy in Shakespeare's 'King Lear'. I also remember reading Blake's 'The Marriage of Heaven and Hell' many times as it raised so much to think and worry about. And, it really was 'worry,'. My school friends probably got fed up with me moaning and groaning about such ideas, just as I go on about things on this forum!

It is interesting how some philosophers also write fiction, including Camus and Iris Murdoch. But, it may be that fiction comes from a slightly different place or state of mind.

The scope of the understanding of what it means to be creative may be restrictive, just as the value of other ideals and goals may be. It may come down to the construction of values, including those underlying philosophy and science. It may be asked to what extent is creativity important?

Of course, all the aspects of business, politics and health are important as aspects of creativity?
My own questioning would be how this relates to the deepest aspects of creativity. I have a bias towards the arts, but acknowledge my own bias. So the question of creativity and its understanding of it may come back to the underlying one of what does it mean to be human? The ideas and ideals generated by people rest on so many assumptions and ideals of the idea of 'creativity' and other intrinsic values.



.

In a way, creativity can be a blurry concept philosophically. However, the idea of innovation, the 'new, as well as modification of ideas may be important. In understanding, both mythos and logos may be essential too, because divisions of reason, emotion and intuition may be partial aspects of creativity in the nature of understanding

The idea of 'the less trodden' may be important because it may take an important step in innovation to seek innovation. It may correspond with evolutionary pathways, and difficulties or conflict may be the starting point for the search for new possibilities.

It is interesting that you see creativity in connection with abstraction because I have always seen it as being about the breaking free from abstractions, especially in the way in which experience often challenges the nature of theory.

I definitely see concreteness of thinking as being opposed to the spirit of creativity. Thinking creatively, as a part of philosophy, may be like a form of mental gymnastics. It can include the many variables, ranging from the logical, rational, aesthetic and psychological dimensions of human understanding.

What seems to me to be a problem with your post is that it seems to misrepresent schizophrenia as being equal to lack of rationality. Schizophrenia is a recognized clinical condition. I am not denying that it may have some aspects which go beyond the medical model. Even though the tradition of antipsychiatry has faded one important work, which may still have some useful insights is RD Laing's, 'The Divided Self'. This looks at the existential splits in thinking often presenting in families, involving conflicting messages.

Generally, I think that your topic area is an interesting one and my main objection is to your title. This is based on my experience of knowing and working with people who have been diagnosed and living with psychosis. However, the whole idea of what is madness is an interesting one for reflection, as written about by Michael Foucalt. The whole antipsychiatry movement was important too, incorporating the social and political aspects of the labelling of mental illness.

The topic which you have raised is a large one, especially as you link it to philosophy and consciousness. Your outpost tries to cover so many aspects, all of which are important. However, it is a bit jumbled and I probably needs to involve some research, in order for it not to come across as a philosophy based on the label of schizophrenia. I do wonder how much knowledge do you have of the condition and experience of schizophrenia as a basis for starting a philosophy discussion on 'Anti-Schizophrenia'.

To some extent it would probably make some sense to view the brain as being like a virtual reality machine. It generates experience but the idea of a machine may have some limitations. While it is a system, and each human being is a system within many larger ones it may ignore the importance of sentience. Human consciousness may be have evolved or emerged and be imminent, but the question may be whether it can be reduced to its mechanical parts.

This may or not be extremely important. The reason for this may be connected to the current focus on artificial intelligence, which involves an emphasis on simulated forms of consciousness. I read a very unusual book a few weeks ago, by Frank J Tipler, 'The Physics of Immortality', which suggested that the idea of resurrection of the dead is a possibility in the form of simulated reality. It draws upon Teilhard de Chardin's idea of the Omega point, as a way of understanding the creation of information and simulation of brains and consciousness in the future. It is very different from the religious idea of resurrection of the dead but this may be where the idea of seeing the brain as a virtual reality machine may lead. One question which I wonder about is whether this is too concrete and involves some mythical fantasy as a form of literalism almost parallel with the traditional or fundamentalist religious ones.

When you speak of confabulations I am not sure that it is that simple. The day to day shared experiences are often seen as the 'real', but that in itself is a form of constructed perception. This may be where the issue of qualia arises. In many ways, colours are vibrations and it is uncertain if different species see the exact same frequencies as one another, and the whole subtle realm of vibrations.

There is also the question of inner and outer reality although it may be that it is not an absolute division because human beings dip in and out of these modes. Here, the possibility of lucid dreaming arises. This is a spectrum ranging from hypopompic and hypnagogic states as well as meditations states of awareness. It was only as a result of having some diagnosed eye problems that led me to read about the retina, which is actually part of the brain.

At one point last year I developed blurred vision in my right eye. When I had it checked out it was macular oedema, which is completely different from macular degeneration. The problem is stable, although I had to have new glasses with a stronger lens for the right eye. What is important in relation to this thread is that since I developed this problem I sometimes see intense visual images in my right eye when it is closed. This is not unpleasant and sometimes I see gardens with decorative walls and unusual symbols on walls. From what I have researched, this is connected to phosphene activity in the retina.

Oliver Sacks has written on unusual organically based experiences. Often, people expect perception to function identically. The brain is definitely involved but it still means that perception is complex, with the example of the interrelationship between sound and vision of synthasaesia.

It is hard to know to what extent I would have come to the exact same view if I had not had the particular experimental experiences. Of course, it is possible that the underlying view which I was developing played a factor in the experiences themselves. The ideas which a person comes with may play a significant factor, although I was a bit surprised by what I experienced at the time.

Recently, I was reading some of Timothy Leary's writings, in which he looks at aspects of brain in relation to 'bardo' states. Many people are drawn to experiment with hallucinogens as a form of recreation. It was the ideas of Aldous Huxley and of shamanism which led me to experiment with cannabis, magic mushrooms and acid as a quest as I had already had some intense borderline sleep experiences.

So, the idea of psychedelic experimentation and experience may be for some a pursuit of understanding of the brain, mind and the nature of reality. When I took acid I definitely had some strange experiences in that respect. During the first trip I had the sense of there being no God, which I had not thought previously. Also, for some time afterwards I noticed I was having coordination problems and felt as if I had been out of my body and had not got back into it in an aligned way. This was the reason why I tried it again and during the second trip, in a warehouse dance event, I had a definite experience which felt like it involved a certain dualism. I felt able to walk through people and when I looked in a mirror I saw a reflection of the walls and environment but not myself. That was unnerving and I thought that I had lost my body..

It may be that the psychedelic experiences cannot be taken at face value, like with NDEs. However, for some people, such experiences may lead to a sense of there being other levels of reality beyond the physical perceived in day to day consciousness.