Comments

  • Neural Networks, Perception & Direct Realism
    You have a certain aversion to bearing any burden. That fact doesn't bode well for you.creativesoul

    You claimed the hard distinction. You can provide the evidence to support your claim.

    I say pick up any anthropological discussion of the issue and you will see folk talking about how literacy makes a big difference - particular to the fostering of a "theoretical" mindset over the preliterate "narrative" mindset - and yet they don't claim some hard difference in terms of "metacognition" .... itself an abused term that doesn't even go to the question of linguistic scaffolding, oral or otherwise.

    So I can't just cite some experiment or book here. Your tangle of crackpottery goes off in too many self-contradicting directions. Having pointed out the silliness of talking in terms of metacognition, I also then pointed out a further silliness in terms of treating written texts as critical to the human mental difference ... when it comes to what is different about human perception in relation to animal perception.

    But good luck getting your thoughts written up and published, revolutionising the course of psychology as your reveal your great hidden truth.
  • A question about time measurement
    But the definition of a second, that's not a part of nature. That's something humans did.fishfry

    So the Planck constant is a social construction and not a part of nature? -https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Planck_time
  • A question about time measurement
    Is this relativity itself relative? Or understood as an absolute?t0m

    Of course it is itself relative. It's a scientific theory and so accepts an internalist inductive argument - the triadic arc of abductive hypothesis, deductive theory, and inductive confirmatory test.

    If it claimed anything absolute, that would be externalism.

    And was it not established on an assumption of the uniformity of nature?t0m

    Again, what else could count as a reasonable hypothesis? To explain differences that make a difference, you have to presume some baseline where any differences don't. That is what makes measurement even a possibility.

    And if science didn't work, we would have given it up long ago (and never in fact arrived at where we are now.)
  • CERN Discovers that the Universe Ought Not to Exist
    Well, not really - there's still the outstanding problem of dark matter.Wayfarer

    Dark or bright, we know it is matter. If it were anti-matter, it would be blowing you to shit right now.
  • CERN Discovers that the Universe Ought Not to Exist
    Just by way of footnote to the above, abstracts of the other two 'greatest problems'Wayfarer

    Science is a work in progress. Shock horror.
  • CERN Discovers that the Universe Ought Not to Exist
    I don't understand your concern. You'll have to explain.

    Anti-matter exists. We can create it. But matter dominates the visible Universe. We can measure that.

    So there is an asymmetry - a symmetry-breaking - which is a foundational issue for cosmology and particle physics.

    And also an actual symmetry-breaking mechanism has been found for the weak force. Nobels have been awarded.

    The link talked about how the search was going in regards to the strong force.

    So I'm not seeing what you think might be the problem.
  • A question about time measurement
    it's easy to imagine a 'smug quietism' misreading genuine logical tensions as language on holiday, complacently waiting for the acknowledgement of such tensions to become conventional, respectable.t0m

    But this particular issue has had really heavyweight analysis within the metaphysics of physics.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hole_argument
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/G%C3%B6del_metric
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bucket_argument

    Einstein, Godel and Mach are some pretty impressive thinkers. If physics doesn't seem to worry too much about "the speed of time", it is because analysis says "everything is relative".
  • CERN Discovers that the Universe Ought Not to Exist
    There is a vast literature on this. I could go digging for the best lay summary I guess.

    Here is a reliable source that is specific to the proton magnetic moment issue - https://profmattstrassler.com/articles-and-posts/particle-physics-basics/c-p-t-and-their-combinations/

    Very surprisingly, CP is not significantly violated by the strong nuclear force, and no one knows why. We know the strong nuclear force does not violate CP symmetry very much because of a certain property of the neutron, called an “electric dipole moment”.

    Now, how big would you expect the dipole moment of a neutron to be? Well, the neutron has a radius of about 10-13 cm, so you’d expect D should be about that size. And it consists of quarks, anti-quarks and gluons; the gluons are electrically neutral, but the quarks and anti-quarks have electric charges: 2/3 e (up quarks), -1/3 e (down quarks), -2/3 e (up anti-quarks) and +1/3 e (down anti-quarks). So you might expect q to be about that size. So you’d expect the neutron to have an electric dipole moment with a size in the vicinity of 10-13 e cm. That’s about a million times smaller than the dipole moment of a water molecule, mainly since the radius of a neutron is a million times smaller.

    Actually there are some subtle effects which make a more accurate estimate a little smaller. The real expectation is about 10-15 e cm.

    But if the neutron had an electric dipole moment, this would violate T, and therefore CP, if CPT is even an approximate symmetry. (It also violates P.) So if CP and CPT were exact symmetries, then the electric dipole of the neutron would have to be exactly zero.

    Of course we already know that CP is not an exact symmetry; it’s violated by the weak nuclear force. But the weak force is so weak (at least as far as it affects neutrons, anyway) that it can only give the neutron an electric dipole moment of about 10-32 e cm. That’s far smaller than anyone can measure! So it might as well, for current purposes, be zero.

    But if the strong nuclear force, which holds the neutron together, violates CP, then we’d expect to see an electric dipole moment of 10-15 e cm or so. Yet experiment shows that the neutron’s electric dipole moment is less than 3 × 10-26 e cm!! That’s over ten thousand million times smaller than expected. And so the strong nuclear force does not violate CP as much as naively anticipated.

    Why is it so much smaller than expected? No one knows, though there have been various speculations. This puzzle is called the strong CP problem, and it is one of the three greatest problems plaguing the general realm of particle physics, the others being the hierarchy problem and the cosmological constant problem.
  • A question about time measurement
    I don't expect to be suddenly wiped out by a change in the 'laws' of nature, but I have yet to see a way around Hume's 'problem.'t0m

    Where there is belief, doubt is also possible by definition. Saying A always logically permits not-A if A is in fact a meaningful thing to assert.

    So the problem of induction isn't really a problem. If we couldn't doubt, how could we say we believed?

    And then uniformity is just a reasonable assumption - the rational bottom-line. How can we measure a difference except against a baseline of indifference? We can't even properly, logically, conceive of a universe in which time ran faster or slower unless we first conceive of it running with some rate that would be, by contrast, constant - the rate without any difference.
  • CERN Discovers that the Universe Ought Not to Exist
    To what in particular? I traversed a heck of a lot of ground there. If your reply is well-intentioned - you are actually curious - then sure I can dig out the supporting books or papers.
  • A question about time measurement
    How would we know 'officially' if the transitions were slowing down or speeding up?t0m

    We know radioactive decay makes a good clock as we also know the physics that could change its rate.

    So we have relativity theory which says everything is fine as long as we share the clock's inertial reference frame. If the clock were to get accelerated, then it would read off time differently.

    And we have quantum theory to tell us that radioactive decay is an intrinsically independent process. It has a statistics which is "internal" - ruled by a constant of nature. Although again, we could affect that by "observing the decay continuously", preventing its spontaneous probabilistic decay - something called the quantum zeno effect.

    So in principle, the "clock of the universe" could speed up or slow down and we couldn't notice it. But it is the fact itself that we couldn't notice a difference that then means there ain't anything to worry about - except people's metaphysical hankering for externalist accounts of reality.

    We have rules - relativity and quantum theory - to handle the way time can be stretched or broken in ways we can notice. We can understand how clocks can tell a different time because of physical differences. And so, to the degree we remove those difference-making conditions, our clocks will "run true".

    This may only be an internalist truth. But in the end, only internalism makes sense as epistemology.
  • Do we behold a mental construct while perceiving?
    How many trees are there, one or ten?Banno

    Still peddling this false calculus?

    For a realist, the question is do all accounts converge. And clearly those of the poetic, the insane, the asleep, the infant, the non-english speaking, etc, may not.

    So the realist can define what is normal in a measurable tendency of normal minds to converge. The teacher can gather the class and ask the kids to count the trees. Peer pressure can be relied on to produce "the right answer" after a period.

    But normative behaviour is all that has actually been demonstrated. Pragmatism is the best realism can achieve. To not admit to the epistemology in operation - to simply play the teacher barking "count the damn tree" - is the disingenuous language game we all know as direct realism.

    And that is odious and oppressive behaviour. Just like any social norming that can't acknowledge its epistemological basis.
  • CERN Discovers that the Universe Ought Not to Exist
    Or alternatively 'no reason to assume the universe is anything but a contingent accident'.fdrake

    But an essential handedness has been found in the weak force. And the explanation is mathematical - chiral symmetry and its breaking by the Higgs mechanism.

    But not "enough" symmetry-breaking has been found in that one mechanism. So it would be useful to find a similar contribution from the strong force.

    Anyway, the working presumption is that the necessary symmetry-breaking asymmetry is not accidental but an exact mathematical feature that always "lurked" in the Big Bang's particle making. Things couldn't have been different.

    You've got to hand it to nature. Who would have thought that the mathematics of existence would have to embed the twist that meant all the positive mass particles were clunky great big triplet entities - protons - and all the negative ones were little point-like electrons?

    This baked-in symmetry difference built in a physical asymmetry which - once the Big Bang had expanded and cooled enough for it to be stably expressed - guaranteed things could evolve to be more complex.

    And indeed, life itself depends fundamentally on the fact of this size-difference in the charged particles. Life could happen as protons are too fat to squeeze through membranes. Life could develop as there was a size asymmetry it could exploit to control the flow of charge and thus extract work from that controlled flow.

    So everything about existence comes back to symmetries and their breaking. The Universe as we know it was mathematically pre-ordained.
  • CERN Discovers that the Universe Ought Not to Exist
    So much for 'symmetry breaking' :-}Wayfarer

    What are you rolling your eyes at? Do you think the symmetry ain't actually broke or something?

    The very fact that Cern can conjure up anti-matter to test is a demonstration that the symmetry breaking exists. And when matter and anti-matter annihilate back into a shower or radiation, that demonstrates also that the symmetry exists.

    It is just that proton and anti-protons are identical in their magnetic moment, just as they are with their charge and mass. So the source of the symmetry-breaking ain't that.
  • Neural Networks, Perception & Direct Realism
    if you want to argue that preliterate hunter gatherers aren’t skilled at transmitting cultural metacognitive thinking via their oral skills, then you show me any such evidence.apokrisis
  • Do we behold a mental construct while perceiving?
    Ground breaking. Wish I could be there.
  • Do we behold a mental construct while perceiving?
    Wow. The nuclear passive aggressive option! Yeah, go for it.

    Rorty. The everyman’s punching bag. X-)
  • Do we behold a mental construct while perceiving?
    That's not quite how I would say it, but not far from what I would sayBanno

    So I am right. It just pains you to admit it.

    What you call realism is simply pragmatism. Language use creates the observer along with the observable. Objective truth is simply belief that is fit for purpose.
  • Do we behold a mental construct while perceiving?
    All this just to show that there is a deal of ambiguity in the questionBanno

    Nope. Now you are just trying to bypass the irreducible self refential complexity of language use to point in its other direction - thus hoping to point attention away from my demolition of direct realism just a post ago.

    Look, you exclaim, over here we discover a lurking beholder. Ain’t that so homuncular.

    Yes, Banno, reference is always self referential like that. A relation has two ends. There must be a context, a reference frame, which grounds any pragmatically successful ostensive act.

    So, yes, look back from the thing being pointed at, and we discover the “self” that beholds it. The thing exists as an object of perception to the degree there is this anchoring other.

    But is this self real? Well, it certainly develops a certain invariant reality as an interpretive habit.

    So we are back into pragmatism as usual - the destination that Witti was trying to reinvent after having its truth whispered by Ramsey in his logical atomist ear.
  • Nagel's 'Mind and Cosmos'
    As I understand it, the philosophical understanding of 'substance' has never been allied to its common understanding as "stuff", so it's not at all clear what you are actually referring to here with your " But it’s all a colossal mistake, a category error, a misreading".Janus

    Surely Aristotle’s concern for “thaten” does reflect the folk metaphysics search for an ur-stuff. Substance became defined hylomorphically as in-formed matter. So substance is a stuff with inherent properties or potential.

    I would agree that there also lurks a more sophisticated reading of Aristotelian substance.

    If instead the focus is on individuation, then the substantial can be taken to mean simply the individuated. Substance is about unbounded potential becoming concretely constrained.

    So drill down to the root of being and - if existence is pure individuation - then the ur-stuff is the radically unindividuated. The Apeiron.

    So there is the conventional definition of substance - the ur-stuff debate that leads to ectoplasmic dualism or panpsychism. Then there is the flip version of hylomorphism where existence is the individuated, and thus quite a different story of constraints on unbound freedoms needs to be told.
  • Do we behold a mental construct while perceiving?
    the multiplicity of trees is implicit in the question raised by the OP.Banno

    But is the tree mental when we actually perceive one (see, smell, touch, hear it fall in the woods, etc)?Marchesk

    So is it an actual multiplicity of objects that is implied, or the irreducible self-referentiality of perception? Are we pointing at several kinds of tree, or is the issue - as I have highlighted - that any act of pointing is always a pointing in two directions.

    In pointing from the speaking self, or the linguistic culture, or the scientific reference frame, we are making a claim about a pragmatic or interpretative relation.

    So we don’t have to worry about a multiplicity of objects. We only have to pay heed to the epistemic fact that pointing is self referential in an irreducible fashion.

    Direct realism formally dies at that point. Only pragmatism remains.
  • Do we behold a mental construct while perceiving?
    Seems overly complicated.Banno

    Or the truth irreducibly complex. Epistemology involves self-reference. The reason for the irreducible complexity is hardly hidden here.

    Look, I know your favourite language game is trapping folk into using a language game in which the realist metaphysics are the already baked-in presumption.

    “Come along children, let’s count how many trees we can all see. Let’s move away from all these wild-eyed people questioning the epistemic root of such language use.”

    You’re a one trick pony, Banno. You just keep setting the same little snare, hoping to trap another unwary passer by.
  • Has Neoliberalism infiltrated both the right and the left?
    If your preferred economics is distributionism, that is pretty much what the relocalisation and social entrepreneur crowd are advocating as an antidote to corrupt neoliberalism - https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_enterprise

    So a smart government could get in behind an alternative.
  • Neural Networks, Perception & Direct Realism
    What? Are you saying hunter gatherer tribes lack metacognition? Are you saying hunter gatherers tribes aren’t preliterate cultures?

    So yes, I have no problem with the idea that literacy made another huge difference. That too is well studied - a routine anthropological fact, even if not a politically correct one.

    But if you want to argue that preliterate hunter gatherers aren’t skilled at transmitting cultural metacognitive thinking via their oral skills, then you show me any such evidence.

    Meanwhile, read up on how oral communication is employed - https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5372815/
  • Do we behold a mental construct while perceiving?
    But I would defend pragmatism against subjectivism. Just because we must accept consciousness of the world is indirect, it doesn’t mean that some methods for structuring experience couldn’t also have the goal of being more true, or more objective, or more realistic, or however else we can operationally define a notion of maximal directness.

    So conceding the epistemic argument that perception is not direct, does not mean we can’t turn around and have directness as our epistemic ambition. Not all subjectivism has to be equal.
  • Neural Networks, Perception & Direct Realism
    Where is the evidence that spoken language isn’t enough?

    I’m sure a good a case can be made for how the creation of texts was a big step up in terms of cultural semiosis. Having a sacred book that encodes the right way to think means civilisations of millions can become focused on the shared project of saving their eternal souls.

    But equally, anthropologists study hunter-gatherer tribes that rely on oral memory to transmit metacognitive thought habits. There is simple proof your assertions are fallacious.

    Are you saying hunter gatherers aren’t properly human?
  • Neural Networks, Perception & Direct Realism
    Repetition is not answering, its evading.

    Again, how do you define facilitate in the above context? Was my suggestion right or wrong?
  • Do we behold a mental construct while perceiving?
    There are both subjectivising and objectivising language games. So we have some great epistemic theories to underpin our ontological commitments.

    Pragmatism works. Neither realism nor idealism can.
  • Neural Networks, Perception & Direct Realism
    Again you evade giving an answer. You won’t explain how your distinction between speech and writing is a difference that makes a difference in the context of any claims about metacognition.

    That distinction is not one I’ve seen being held up as crucial in any metacognition texts. So you will have to be the one to justify it.

    The fact that you will continue to try to worm your way out of doing so says everything that needs to be said.
  • Has Neoliberalism infiltrated both the right and the left?
    You are welcome to your opinion. But the argument to support it would be nice.

    For instance, on what grounds would you be claiming that it is not the corruption of neo-liberalism that is the systemic issue, rather than neoliberalism itself.

    And are you familiar enough with social enterprise theory to say it wouldn’t work as neo-neoliberalism? Can you spell out why.
  • Neural Networks, Perception & Direct Realism
    Just repeating a failure to explain is not helpful.

    Why writing as a necessary step? Why wasn’t speaking already enough?

    Am I suppose to understand by “facilitate” that you mean only to say writing helped sharpen what speaking had already got started?

    In that case, writing become a redundant issue. It is not a critical fact here.

    Again you seem determined to put obstacles in the way of any discussion. You won’t reference, you won’t answer directly, you use weird terminology with meaningless redundancies, you make secret sauce claims of understanding a mystery that no one else gets.

    Getting straight answers from you is like blood from a stone.
  • Neural Networks, Perception & Direct Realism
    Unless humans have always been linguistic creatures, it seems to me that there is a progression of complexity at work.creativesoul

    Strewth. Yes of course. Language had to evolve. And the modern symbolic human mind with it. That is what paleoanthropology studies. Go read a book about it.
  • Neural Networks, Perception & Direct Realism
    Utter bullshit. Where have you explained to me why writing is a necessary difference? Why isn’t speech itself already enough?
  • Do we behold a mental construct while perceiving?
    But you are stressing the subjective tree - the one that appears to us even in our dreams. It is tree-ness in all the ways we could possibly imagine.

    And the concern here is with the objective tree, the mind-independent tree, the Kantian tree-in-itself.

    This is where those peddling Wittgensteinian quietism are being disingenuous.

    The language game tree is the social tree, the one that appears to a community of minds connected by a web of linguistic relations. There is a right way of speaking about trees because there is a social level of subjectivity or semiosis.

    But then the Witti-ites smuggle in their realist claims under the language game smokescreen. Scratch them and you find they believe that makes perception direct. The language game tree is the objective tree - being now defined in terms of the limit of the speakable.

    It’s a laughable ruse. But there you go. They probably believe it themselves.
  • Has Neoliberalism infiltrated both the right and the left?
    On this forum, no one, but there's not many right-wingers here. I'm tempted to say apokrisis, but not sure if it's best to identify him as right-wing. He sounds like neither.Agustino

    Left~right doesn’t really apply as I take a natural systems view of politics/economics. So what is to be encouraged is the balance of competitive and cooperative behaviours. You have to have both working together in a feedback fashion which is then in turn intelligently responsive to its environment.

    Neoliberalism gone wrong is the muddle headed promotion of competitive behaviour - market freedom. If you check your history books, the 1938 Paris meeting where the term neoliberalism was coined was in fact the attempt to fix laissz faire liberalism by given the state a stronger hand in market creation.

    Neoliberalism as theory has plenty of natural logic to recommend it. As much as possible, barriers to individual creative striving ought to be removed and collective norms allowed to self organise. That is just democracy.

    But for collective norms to become established and then function as social constraints - market regulation - requires strong institutional memory. Somehow the right ways of behaving must be captured as social capital.

    So it is pretty easy to spell out the right theory.

    In practice, neoliberalism became just an excuse for Thatcher and others to flog off state institutions for cash. It was a straight transfer of public wealth into private hands. It was oligarchy, although not as crude as what was going to come with the eastern bloc later.

    Good social/economic theory has just been applied corruptly all along.

    The financialised economy had a rational basis. Derivatives were meant to be financial instruments for taming risk. But packaged risk could easily be mis-sold in a market where the watchdogs had been muzzled by elite interests.

    Financialisation was meant to be the democratisation of capital. Anyone could be an entrepreneur as the capital to enter into speculative ventures could be freely pulled out of thin air by the banks. But all that capital got invested into the speculative bubbles the banks then created - tech stocks, housing, etc. All the democratisation of capital achieved was interest paying serfdom on asset classes. Very little real productive uplift was created. Ordinary people were turned into speculating mopes to allow a transfer of their wealth into the hands of those able now to create money.

    So yes, right wing philosophy - the competition championing, de-institutionalising, philosophy - has become the modern orthodoxy. But let’s not pretend the theory itself was ever properly applied. The practice has been utterly corrupt. The new self-organising social institutions promised have not really emerged. Unless we are talking Goldman Sachs or Davros.

    Neo-liberalism could still be done right with another crucial shift - if it is founded in a clear understanding of the limits to growth.

    In the business world already - not in the US perhaps, but elsewhere - there are new models like social enterprise that are a rational response. Alternative economic thinking does exist. Business can consciously pursue social and environmental outcomes.

    Who needs Trump, his generals, and the fascist regime in waiting? Augustino, is this the future you are supporting? Are you aching for the strongman junta that steps in to restore public order as the GFC proper kicks in?

    You seem so caught up in a meaningless triviality - the non-difference of whether the Clintons or some Republican stooge of big business is nominally in charge of protecting the corruption of the elite. Look up, lift your head and see just what dark force you are backing.

    Do you think Trump and his generals are going to be able to act against the now off-shore elite in the same way they will be able to do what they want with all the little men?
  • Neural Networks, Perception & Direct Realism
    Again, just answer a direct question. Why are you insisting on written language as necessary to metacognition?

    Your refusal to answer on small but important details is a big problem. Why do you go out of your way to be opaque?
  • Neural Networks, Perception & Direct Realism
    It just means that our physiological sensory perception has limitations and as such doesn't perceive everything.creativesoul

    But my argument has been that the limitation is fruitful, purposeful - the feature and not the bug. So the indirectness is critical to the design. It creates the epistemic cut by which the mind separates itself from the world so as then to be able to assert control over the world.

    What you treat as an interruption to directness that doesn’t do too much damage, I am saying is the interruption that is foundationally necessary so that a self can be introduced into the equation. The world must be filtered in a way that represents already the self-interested self.

    So you are motivated to argue for directness, despite the evidence, because you seek to defend a mistaken notion of processing.

    Yours is essentially a representational ontology where the brain turns sensory input into a conscious state of experience - that some homuncular self then experiences. The usual confusion.

    I’ve argued the embodied and Bayesian brain view where the brain instead does its best to predict its inputs. Success is defined in terms of how much the world can be afforded to be ignored. So the self interest exists from the get-go. And the epistemic cut is enforced by the mind only having to read reality in terms of its own privately constructed system of signs.

    Not all perception requires language.creativesoul

    This is an example of your nonsensical replies. Where have I ever said all perception requires language?
  • Has Neoliberalism infiltrated both the right and the left?
    Monbiot did a nice article on the theory vs the practice.
  • Neural Networks, Perception & Direct Realism
    Yeah, I’m just not following your line of argument.

    First up, the psychologists who talk about metacognition don’t really get the linguistic scaffolding approach. They are treating those human skills as if they were further genetic functions, not socially constructed and language based skills.

    Then still, what has written language got to do with it? Just have a mind structured by oral speech is plenty. Kids don’t learn metacognitive type skills from a manual.

    This is all getting a little too weird now.