"I have no cause for complaint on the grounds that the power of understanding or the natural light which God gave me is no greater than it is... I have reason to give thanks to him who has never owed me anything for the great bounty that he has shown me, rather than thinking myself deprived or robbed of any gifts he did not bestow." (Italics mine)

Of course, non-religious people would call this "nature", not God. But it's a valid perspective.

Even with this, some people won't be satisfied, and that's OK too. — Manuel

Too bad he’s wrong about that. It’s not a valid perspective but rather a naive one.

I'm also not a fan of ironing out all the wrinkles in human variability. Doing so might well eliminate musical prodigies, business geniuses, brilliant and productive writers, the rare very gifted inventor, etc, as well as eliminate problematic variations such as mental retardation, schizophrenia, epilepsy, and so on. — BC

This doesn’t seem like a bad thing. I think the world could use less geniuses, inventors, etc considering most of the issues today were caused by them. The world will also survive without writers or musical prodigies.

Though I’m not really seeing your point with the rest of your statement.

But I'm against such a pill being available to the general population. That would mean the end of autism. My son would be in the last generation. Parents would give it to their autistic children en masse. — bert1

You say that like it’s a bad thing. Also you could just not take it or give it. I’m sure there would be folks who would do the same, but they don’t get to speak for all and neither do you.

I'm just making the point that there is no necessary connection between having a shitty time and wanting not to be autistic. — bert1

Except there is.

Well, sort of. You could maybe develop a medication or surgery or something that turn people from being autistic to neurotypical, but such a thing could only correctly be called a 'cure' by people like you who conceive of autism as a disease. Neurodivergence is generally not conceived that way, so 'cure' would be the wrong word. Unless you want to say that you could 'cure' bipedalism by hacking someone's leg off. — bert1

This is a bit of a strawman. Autism is very much an impediment to one’s life, trying to liken it to bipedalism is woefully wrong.

Not to mention the neurodivergence is kinda divided on the matter. I mean you have blind people who view blindness being cured as offensive. I think those who don’t view it as a disease are blind to the full scope of how it manifests. Like I said, I’m not the only one who feels like I do.

There is an irony in atheism insofar as it is a theological position. It both requires study of theological arguments, epistemology, metaphysics, and religion. In order to be without gods he must first have gods to be without. In some sense he never leaves religion, always keeping one foot in its sphere. — NOS4A2

This is a wild misunderstanding of atheism.

It’s a non position. Also you don’t need gods to be an atheist.

Like…this is just wrong

No it really isn’t.

The Nazis didn't murder the Jews because of religious differences. A Jew who disclaimed his Judaism was no safer than a devout one.

Nazi Germany is a good example of a war that was not about religion. It was about ethnicity.

Mao, Stalin, Pol Pot, Kim Jong Un, Putin, all devotly religious folks I suppose, trying to impose their brand of religion on the masses. I'll have to read up on that. I wasn't aware of that. — Hanover

Factually incorrect. Nazi ideology was religiously motivated, as fascism tends to do. Also I said most not all.

Also you don’t have to believe the ideology just weaponize it, trump is an example of this. They invoke religious language with their message. Stalin did it too, though he was kicked out of the orthodoxy for stealing for the church.

Like I said before, folks here seem ignorant of how this works in real life.

most of those were religious though, trump too (or at least uses it well)

I don’t know, I think religion is a special breed compared to others.

It makes a difference when you divinely chosen as opposed to elected

this thread was just bait from the looks of it, even the op’s wording seems to suggest it

It seems fairly obvious to me why.

Of course not, why suggest it? It is a very common reaction, in my experience, when someone attacks one's way of life, to become defensive and reactive. You can see it happening in this thread, and a glance at history will yield many examples. It's not a matter of blaming atheists, but of a misdirected argument that leads to an unnecessary conflict. It is perfectly possible to be a Christian atheist. — unenlightened

Uhh you suggested it.

Also Christian atheist has to be the most laughable example of how nonsensical religion can be.

No one is being defensive and reactive, though that seems to have been your goal. IMO atheism hasn’t really done anything but exist. So there really was no need to include it, but you did because you knew what it would do.

It was fairly obvious.

It’s also not a good mark on religion when historically people have been horribly punished for going against it. Like it wasn’t even an option to pick anything else.

Even today it’s sort of like that. Try running for US president while being an atheist. In fact it was only recently that being atheist was not considered some moral failing or black mark on a person.

Like OP just seems woefully ignorant, same with a lot of others in this thread, about what religion is and has been historically. You can’t blame atheism for what religion does. Religion wants control, plain and simple. And it has punished those who want other options.

Like…my existence would not have been an option solely due to religion.

That’s kinda ignorant of how religious texts are actually used by people. They make references to it all the time, the issue though is that every group thinks they’re the one that has got it right about what it says. The interpretation AND the text are important. The difference here is that atheists IMO have broken free of the need to follow it.

Interpretation necessarily involves imposing some sense of wisdom and logic upon the text in order to obtain palatable results. Do you not impose your wisdom and logic when describing your ethical conclusions? Can't you manipulate whatever secular means you use in determining your ethical conclusions to justify whatever result you want? It's not like religion has a monopoly on justifying bad acts. — Hanover

Wrong. Religion tends to have a monopoly on justifying bad actions. It’s kinda where that quote “religion can make good people do bad things” comes from. It’s also why there’s no real arguing with them because when your ethics are divinely inspired you can’t logic it. Why do you think they default to “god works in mysterious ways”. The majority of negative events in human history can be traced back to religion. The current trend of homophobia for one, nazi Germany, etc.

I don’t manipulate secular means. I don’t have the heart to contradict and lie like religious people tend to do.

You really do seem to be ignorant about human history.

the problem is that people seem to forget this can manifest in many ways and while some have the good traits and minimal bad down have nothing but bad and struggle needlessly.

So it can be considered an illness based on how it manifests.

Yes you can. Not really hitting it out of the park huh.

This just sounds like making excuses for the text or religion. Never mind that the text itself contradicts itself multiple times and makes exceptions for followers that it doesn’t for others. Not to mention preach some awful things.

Even Christ wasn’t exactly a good guy in the book itself. There is a reason a lot of atheists say they became atheists by reading the Bible.

Personally I think we’d be better off without religion as I think it’s done more harm than good. But at least today you have to option to practice or not unlike the past.

also the problem with interpretation of a text is that people can use it to justify just about anything they want to so you’re not really helping your cast but more illustrating a huge problem with religion.

Except you’re just wrong. Life today is arguably better than in the past, especially when it comes to religion.

Now that it doesn’t hold such a strong position anymore I can not worry (well not so much these days) about being gay. If anything it’s religions fault that it’s even a problem today.

Also IMO Religion doesn’t answer how to live so much as tell/force you to live as such or else.

And I thought I was guilty of bad logic.

None of this is the fault of atheists. Religion hasn’t had a good track record of allowing people to live as they please and those who stood against it generally paid the price.

Religion is about control, that seems to be the nutshell here.

Again, missing the point.

Even in the links you referenced they were forced to acknowledge that to say that some differences are not to be accepted (if anything your position is the absurd one, we can't embrace every different.

Regardless of how philosophy tries to spin it there is a "normal" for human beings and not everything is just a matter of difference but illness at times. In the case of autism is depends how it manifests in the person. For some they would benefit from being released of the negatives, others have the positives and minor negatives.

The argument is that a net negative life experience is caused by autism, and the conclusion is that curing the autism will result in a positive life experience. It's a rendering of the medical model of disability. — Banno

This is just ignorance. There are plenty on the spectrum who have similar experiences to me and feel as I do and know without these handicaps our lives would improve.

But as I said you're missing the details here, well the important ones.

This is getting into irrelevant details.

It seems to still be avoiding actually acknowledging that some individuals have a net negative life experience because of it and as a result might be something to treat or cure rather than accept. '

I think Gage is an extreme case because it was overnight. But people still say the same of those who they haven't seen in over a year, friends that change and grow a lot.

Well, that is the same for all autistic people! What you've said so far seems to be entirely autistic-normal, it's pretty much the defining characteristics. The difference, as you say, seems to be that you don't find any positives about being autistic, whereas many other autistic people do. So is that what you mean when you say "What you've had to deal with"? Is it not feeling anything positive about your autism? — bert1

People have those in different ways and capacities so no it's not all the same for all autistic people. Some are able to turn their singular interests into careers and stuff like that, others are locked in by them.

Again you are presuming to speak for other autistic people which is where your argument is weak. It's not about feeling it's about what is. And what IS is that the traits can manifest as something good or detrimental, in my case it's detrimental. It's been nothing but a roadblock in my life.

What I think is that you and other people trying to convince others that there is something good to it sounds more like trying to convince yourself of something more than them. Like trying to deny that just because it's good or neutral for some that it applies to all when that is laughably ignorant. I and others would give anything to not be this way, but we learn to deal because there is nothing else. It's almost like trying to acknowledge that fact would make folks question themselves.

I'm not? I'm highlighting the absurdity of his point. Calling someone who changes from what they are as dead is the most nonsensical thing I've heard. It sounds like someone who is afraid of things changing, though if he's on the spectrum that makes sense.

Not to you, clearly. But many people have found it extremely helpful. — bert1

you can't really be sure about that.

Can you explain what you perceive as naivite among autistic people who feel OK about being autistic? Is it that they tell you you can feel fine about it as well if you just change your attitude or something patronising like that? — bert1

I meant that the message is naive in that it maintains the same narrow mindedness that people trying to help do. They treat everyone's case as the same when it's not, so yes it's patronizing, insulting and invalidating. I'm sick of being told to change my attitude as if they know what I've had to deal with.

The "you would be a different person" argument isn't valid. We change over time, no one is the same person they were when they were a teen or a kid etc, so his argument in there about wishing their kid was dead by not having autism could literally apply to ANYONE who changes something about themselves in a manner that isn't recognized.

IMO it's not a positive message, it's hyperbolic in parts and extremely naive, then again it's from 1993

The origins of a more positive narrative around autism can be found in Jim Sinclair's seminal presentation to parents of autistic children called "Don't Mourn for Us". Here's the link, it has had a huge impact on many autistic people:

https://www.autreat.com/dont_mourn.html — bert1

This is the naïveté I was talking about that I don’t like from the pro side.

That’s where I foresee issues since children can’t really consent to it. I don’t have an answer for that

I did have that therapist but even then he tried to treat me like other autistic people he knew when I wasn’t. Like I said everyone is different.

The different person argument is invalid. No one is the same person throughout their life, everything changes.

Well like I said it should be optional for those who don’t want to be like that anymore. Like I said it’s different for everyone so it should be left up to the person.

The extremes aren’t an option though. Either eradicating all of them or pretending like it’s not a genuine issue for some depending on how their life is. Like the first is obvious no, autistic people aren’t something to eradicate. But the second is naive and stupid to think that just because some are good with it means those who struggle genuinely (like myself) just need to love themselves or blame the world and it’s ok.

Even if society did cater to me like that I would still change it because of other things it does.

I don't think that's accurate. Even if autistics were the majority they would still be disabled.

Also much disability isn't caused with an ill fit with the social environment. Als if you don't think they are intrinsically socially handicapped I don't think you understand it very well. The comparison with a fish isn't apt either as it's more akin to a fish in the water with one fin or something like that. You keep blaming the environment when it's clearly evident there are handicaps. That's the other thing I didn't like when I brought it up, people kept blaming the world for not bending to them when I don't blame the world. I know what it is for me and it's not society's fault.

I think you're getting off the point.

But all minorities aren't created equal. Like I have actual handicaps that limit and impact my life. For others it's just a matter of society not liking their skin color or sexuality, IMO not actual problems just hang-ups bigots need to get over. I however have to deal with social handicaps all the time, rigid thinking and behavior, among other things.

I mean black people, asian people, LGBT people, they don't have to worry about stuff like that. In fact most take it for granted.

I mean yeah there are a variety of factors that go into this as we don't understand what the actual cause of it is.

But assuming we did though is what I generally mean as we can argue about cause all day but that's not the main point here. The point is how it impacts people and whether or not those who argue it doesn't need a cure are doing it for all who deal with autism or to just tell themselves that so they can cope.

Because part of me wonders when it comes to those who argue against a cure is that they don't have my best interest at heart, or others like me for whom it's just a thorn in the side.

I can't really relate to other autistic people. I'm in some weird middle ground where it's not terrible but not good either. And I HATE people saying nothing is wrong like they have lived my life. All it's done is hold me back and I've had to work so hard just to overcome the negatives of it. Maybe most don't see it is a disease, and I can agree that maybe disease is a strong word. But they are stupid to not think that some people are better off without it (again not outright killing or exterminating them).

I draw to the X-Men, it doesn't matter how positive you think you're being for some mutants (like Rogue) who they are is a detriment to their lives and others. I think she got the cure in that movie, and I am with her. I can't imagine not being able to touch another person for fear of possibly killing them.

I also never got how people say it's the world that's fucked up and not me, I mean logically it would be the other way around because the world is just what it is. It's not like it's actively malicious or plotting your doom (no matter how we feel some days).

There is little else I want more than to not be like this but since there is no cure I have to work hard to mitigate its impact on my life.

Ok. I thought some expressions of monism (idealism) understand humans as being dissociated metacognitive alters from the one source, but still with their own experiences. No reason why we shouldn't do the right thing by ourselves? — Tom Storm

No reason to do the right thing because there is no one to help.

Well there would be no one to help or save, it would make no difference who suffers or how you treat others because there is no others.

I personally think that if all is "one" then that would pose a massive problem for ethics.

Not exactly. He's not advancing a wild argument that is indefensible but more like he grew up knowing one thing and seeing another needs to adjust. Spending 70 years of your life knowing one thing and then having to change course is hard but he's not making any wild claims.

The woman just sounds narrow minded.

I think it's an accurate fallacy and reflects a lot of the arguments you hear in the modern world today.

A lot of the time some blatantly wrong and monstrous arguments are couched in "concern for the children" (famous motte line but it's an obvious mask) when really it's more just using that as a siege engine for the real hate and bigotry they're trying to push.

It's the same line trotted out when blacks fought for civil rights, or gay men, and now trans people. The motte is always the concern for children, because who would really argue against the safety of minors. But the real point is the bailey, the wild position. But they can't do that so they always retreat to the motte.

"free speech" is the famous motte when it came to misgendering trans people or using pronouns, or making violent threats to others.

In modern discourse you will rarely see bigots sincerely peddle their true argument (the bailey) because it's not only wrong and clearly fallacious, but often times monstrous. The problem however is trying to expose the bailey instead of fighting on the motte, because the motte is the shadow, it's never really about that.