I guess philosophy is too deep and personal for most people. I tried to get my Facebook friends talking about their lives' meaning and purpose, and all I got was the sound of crickets chirping.

So in general the angsty-drive of humans generally lands in the spectrum of survival, boredom, and/or discomfort and all taking place in the environment the individual finds themselves in. — schopenhauer1

I would add that this underlying drive becomes more evident to people who have suffered from depression, where there is little motivation to do anything other than survive, and somehow pass the time with as little effort as possible.

People who are quite happy with the life experiences and socially constructed norms they have encountered thus far would be more likely to deny these as motivating factors, in favor of self-affirmation and other such ego-based desires.

And not only that, you also tell us that that underlying cause is boredom, and not, for example, pleasure, self-affirmation, or love. — Agustino

When you think of things you do for mental pleasure, where does the sense of satisfaction come from? You paint something you think looks nice. So what? We already have lots of things that look nice. What did you add to your real self-worth? What real motivation do you have to paint, other than to alleviate boredom?

What real value is there in self-affirmation? What does it add to the world? I'm the greatest painter that ever lived! So what? Society taught you that being good at painting somehow makes your life more worthwhile, that you have more value as an individual.

I think love falls into the survival and procreation category. Being part of a larger group that cares about your existence increases your chance of survival, and courtship and intimacy can be linked to procreation.

What about the color spectrum? Could it not be infinitely subdivided? That is, between two shades of color, there will always be a shade that is between them.

@Agustino

When I consider things like this, I sometimes think of what a child raised by monkeys on an island would do. We have basic instincts that drive us to gather food, create shelter, and socialize (play with the monkeys). But what would the child do if it was left behind when all the other monkeys were out gathering food? It's hard to imagine that it would sit like a cat, just passively taking in the surroundings until the monkeys returned - that would get boring pretty fast for such an intelligent mammal. So does it get up and take a walk around, start picking up rocks and throwing them in the water to express itself, or simply to relieve the discomfort of doing nothing? Looking at it this way, I think @schopenhauer1 has the better argument. The things we do today that aren't aimed at survival or procreation, are simply to alleviate the discomfort of doing nothing - although they may be done within the context of the ego and the social norms that have developed over time, like always needing to be improving, needing to be different, and the need for purpose.

I tend to agree with @schopenhauer1 here, based on my life experience. For me, the drive to pursue goals has been more akin to @Bitter Crank's concept of 'impermanent meaningfulness', where we take on temporary pursuits to survive or thrive (maximize net pleasure), and to feel like we have some sort of grander purpose, compared to twiddling our thumbs, or sitting around like cats.

I think we're fooled by our intelligence into believing that our purpose is to work toward self-fulfillment. The problem is that it's an ever-changing target, a never-ending ego-based striving; and once you realize that, it kind of takes some of the romanticism out of it. I still make choices that I expect will bring the highest net pleasure to my life (taking into account the trade-off of short-term suffering for long-term gain, and vice versa), but I seem to have given up on the thinking that if I achieve a certain something, my life will have been worthwhile. I feel like self-fulfillment and higher purpose have followed God into the box of things I still hope for, but can't quite believe in any more.

I'm at a point where I'm focusing on meeting life's basic needs (which I think includes maintaining important relationships with others), and taking part in different things to make life as interesting as possible, alleviating that sense of boredom that always seems to be hanging around the corner.

Congratulations PFers - we made it to another Friday! To celebrate, I think I'm going to take Monday off, and make it another long weekend...

@rossii

Like you already mentioned, though you likely wouldn't be around to witness it, your untimely death would cause a lot of suffering to those around you. That alone is reason enough for most people to avoid suicide, even when severely depressed.

Reason number two for me is the possibility of making your life worse due to a failed suicide attempt, whether from brain damage, paralysis, or simply the guilt from having tried to end your life. At this point, you may be incapable or carrying out suicide, or lose the desire to end your life, and you'll be stuck with whatever came of your failed attempt.

And while I currently believe that our existence ends with death of the human body, there is still a chance that some sort of 'soul' survives. If this 'soul' retains any sort of memory of our human existence, the guilt of hurting the people who loved me isn't something I would want to carry around for eternity. That's assuming there isn't some system of reward/punishment that follows this life (I know, highly unlikely, but still a possibility), in which case I'm thinking suicide would be viewed unfavorably.

@ArguingWAristotleTiff

Your nursery rhymes and song tidbits will not claim the Last Word - I will make sure of it!

@John Gould @Bitter Crank @Jake Tarragon

I think this idea of 'impermanent meaningfulness' has some value as well, especially to those who are vulnerable to experiencing depression. Reminds me of Don Miguel Ruiz Jr's book on the Five Levels of Attachment. While you can add value and meaning to your life by building attachments to people, ideas, and things, you should understand and expect that life is always changing, and that you may be forced to shift your attention to different sources of meaning throughout your life. People die, things are lost, and beliefs change. When you put all of your eggs in one basket, it is much more traumatic when unexpected change occurs. Loving one person to the exclusion of all others, believing too fervently in a religion, basing your happiness on material things, building an identity that you believe to be the 'real you', or other forms of unhealthy attachment, can all lead to negative future mental states when the basis of your attachment is removed.

Well, I survived the weekend soccer tourney! Feels like I was beaten with a baseball bat, and I can barely make it up the stairs, but I'm still alive! #lifeafter40

@rossii

The survival instinct is too strong in most people to go through with suicide. Add to that the thought of your loved ones' suffering (even if you aren't going to be there to witness it), and it becomes an even more difficult task.

So if you can reason out that the chance of you actually committing suicide is really quite low, maybe you can shift start shifting your focus away from it a little bit at a time. The thoughts will continue to surface, but when they do, you can say to yourself 'No, that's not really going to happen, so I'm not going to spend time and energy considering the possibility'. Kind of similar to planning your life based on winning the lottery - it's very likely not going to happen, so it doesn't make sense to invest your thoughts and emotions in that possibility.

As for living, try not to focus too much on meaning and purpose, because that can just send you back down the rabbit hole if you can't find something to focus on that is 'worth living for'. Make sure your basic needs are satisfied - eat, exercise, sleep, build relationships - and make life as interesting and pleasant as possible - find hobbies, interact with people, spend time in nature, avoid excessive use of alcohol and drugs.

These things have helped me get to a place where I feel relatively stable, after having dealt with severe depression on and off for over a decade.

If you are severely depressed, you may need the help of medication and cognitive behavioral therapy to get you started on the right path. Medication can relieve the depressive symptoms and suicidal thinking temporarily, while you begin the work of restructuring your thought patterns and beliefs.

Well, I figured I would get the last word in before I head out for the weekend. Soccer tournament! Or football, for you British blokes!

The explanation Is that is the mind. It is irreducible and fundamental to life. No faith involved. It is everyone's experience of choosing and creating. — Rich

Calling something fundamental and irreducible is quite a leap of faith, Rich. More likely, the mind (our central processing unit) is just not well enough understood yet. As technology continues to advance, the complexities of the brain will be unwoven, probably to the point where we will be able to 'see' a decision being made.

Establish relationships with others and find one that you are willing to live and die for. Then procreate with them, creating more that you would live and die for. When you understand that your greatest legacy you could ever leave behind is your children, then you have found your purpose in life. — Harry Hindu

I'm with you on this one, Harry. There is no grand purpose to life, or at least none that will ever be proven. Unless you are one of the great influences in the world (like Ghandi or Taylor Swift), your life will be mostly mediocre, sprinkled with periods of joy and despair.

Your best bet is to focus on satisfying your basic instincts to survive (eat well, sleep well, find a decent place to live) and thrive (exercise, contribute to society via some form of work, build close relationships with family and friends, and raise children).

Add in a few hobbies to keep things interesting, and you've got a formula for the grandest purpose you're likely to find.

Why was the philosophy forum so nice to lie in?

It had a high thread count! :D

This thread almost made it to the fourth page. Someone might try to declare themselves a winner if that were to happen!

If X has two potential courses of action open to them at T, X must have some kind of reason for favoring one course over the other or his decision to do one or the other would be random. If X does have a reason to favour one over the other then this must be related to some form of past experience — Mike Adams

I'm with you on this one. The decision is made based on instinct, and anticipated outcome based on past experience. The instincts and experiences exist prior to the decision, and 'mind' is nothing more than the central processing unit that factors in all the variables, before arriving at the choice it determines will have the best chance of producing the desired outcome.

@Hanover @Janus @Rich

Let's look at a relatively simple example of seemingly random behavior and freedom of choice.

Someone asks you to pick a random number between one and a thousand.

You first need knowledge of numbers in order to do so. If you have such knowledge, you then begin the mental process of selecting a 'random' number. But does it end up being truly random? Or is it based on all exposure to numbers (and possibly other experiences) leading up to that choice. Numbers quickly come to mind, and you select from the options presented by your brain, based on the strongest sense of suggestion. Surely this sense is dependent on the way numerical information has been stored in the brain, and how it is accessed.

If we could exactly model how information is stored and accessed in the human brain, we should be able to accurately predict what random number a person would select at any given moment, based on the brain's configuration immediately preceding the question.

@Janus More a hypothesis than a known fact... ;)

But try to think of an idea you've had that was completely brand new, and not based on a combination of knowledge and experience of past events...

My advice would be to not get too caught up in the need for meaning - no one has yet been able to prove that life has some grand meaning, so there's no use in actively chasing it.

Instead, focus on your basic biological needs - food, shelter, family, community, relationships, sleep, physical health - all of these will contribute positively to your mental state, and help you feel more like living, despite the lack of grand meaning or purpose.

Agreed, the outcome of this discussion will not affect how I live my life. Unfortunately, I have a brain that only seems to accept logic, evidence, and probability when it comes to establishing belief. But I love logic and games, so that's a plus! :)

It's like putting a champion tennis player up against a champion badminton player in a...tennis match. — Baden

More like putting the best triathlete currently in existence up against a well-aged champion distance runner who hasn't competed in quite some time in a distance race.

Go McGregor!

I see you've run out of logical arguments to support your point of view. Like I said, determinism wins (for now)!

When you eventually respond, you will likely do so with the hope that your response is creative enough and convincing enough to sway me closer to your point of view. Though what I've just said will definitely influence your choice of words...

Give yourself about one lifetime to ruminate over 'I am considering" and then get back to this thread. — Rich

We start taking time to consider as we gain life experience, because we learn that snap decisions based on instinct and emotion aren't always the best ones. This time spent considering doesn't mean that the eventual choice isn't dependent on preceding factors - it just means that the alternatives are judged as nearly equal in value.

There's that x factor creativity again. All new ideas stem from the inputs that precede them - they aren't magically generated from nothingness.

So determinism wins!

life is exactly what one experiences — Rich

Every time I make a choice, I am considering past choices, results, and experiences. Basic instincts also weigh in to the decision. All of these things are pre-existing - there is no factor x that pushes me one way or another. So the choice, though sometimes highly unpredictable, is determined by everything that came before it.

Posty McPostface is a Greedy Gus. There. I said it, it can't be unsaid, and it is what it is. He wanted the Last Word, but he can't have it!

I am saying we all make choices, but they are made by the biological brain, based on the memory and instinct contained therein. What I understand from your comments is that there exists a creative intelligence and continuance of memory that is separate from the human brain. I'm wondering if you've had a chance look into the obstacle I raised regarding memory, which counters your theory.

@Rich

But why wouldn't all memories be affected equally, if they are being channeled through the brain. Memory loss is often selective, leaving certain memories totally intact. I experienced this after undergoing ECT - certain memories were completely lost, while others remained. — CasKev

The best that I can reply, is like a TV tuner, reception can be complete distorted (as in an advanced state of Alzheimer's or partially distorted. It doesn't have to be all or nothing. It is my understanding that holography behaves in a similar manner. I have limited holographic knowledge so I might investigate your question further. It certainly deserves further thought and investigation. — Rich

Did you get a chance to look into this yet? I feel like it is also relevant to your arguments in the discussion on Quantum Free Will vs Determinism, as they depend on non-local intelligence affecting choice.

These value judgments (thoughts) instead make us feel positive or negative emotions and it is through these emotions that we either see good value (positive emotions) or bad value (negative emotions) in regards to certain things or situations. — TranscendedRealms

Doesn't this statement go against your argument that emotions are a sense independent of thought?

I have a creative mind that makes choices. Choices and learning from these choices (memory) is the process of creative evolution. — Rich

So you can admit that there is memory built from the experiential results of choices, on which future choices are based. Yet you seem to insist on there being this other source of creative intelligence that somehow influences decision-making and generates ideas out of nowhere.

To me, there doesn't need to be an additional source - everything required for decision-making and idea creation is accounted for by memory and instinct. The value you place on this source of creative intelligence seems god-like and ego-based - needing to be more than the intelligent animal that you are, and needing to believe that you are more than just a sum of your past experiences and biological beginnings.

@Hanover

I would start with Rich and Transcended Realms. Though not as nasty as Thanatos Harris, neither one of them likes having their ideas challenged, and it often results in incessant cawing and stick throwing.

Unpredictable yes, because we are nowhere near being able to accurately model all of the variables that go into brain function.

In this case, perhaps the short response time was based on your desire to prove your point. The words you chose were those you expected to have the best chance of proving your point. Maybe you have a need to be right that is based in the human need for dominance, or because your parents never took you seriously.

The point is that everything that went into your decision is based on something that existed prior to the decision. Even seemingly random events have a preceding chain of events leading up to them.

As for me, I am quite comfortable making choices in my life. — Rich

Can you tell me on what you based your last major decision?

@VagabondSpectre @Rich

When I think of something being fated, I think of someone saying 'It was meant to be'. As in: It was fate that I met my girlfriend. I relate it to there being an overarching storybook reason for why something happens, as opposed to just being dependent on what came before it.

No choice is fated or necessarily predictable (because of the infinite level of complexity involved in thought), but you can definitely say that everything is determined by what precedes it.

But I am saying that our emotions are like the sense of sight and that they are the only things that can allow us to see the value in our lives. — TranscendedRealms

Emotions are not a 'sense' - they are reactions to stimulus. I can perceive value in something in the absence of a corresponding positive emotion. For example, sometimes I feel great joy when I look at my son, and other times, the feeling can be quite neutral. There has been no change in the value of my son to my life, yet my emotional reaction can be substantially different. It is dependent on a number of factors, including the circumstances surrounding the encounter, and my emotional state preceding the encounter.