So Koreans are suicidal because they speak Korean? The Dutch are tolerant for speaking Dutch? Hmmm... I suspect the hypothesis is bullshit.

So, African Americans aren't Western?

Biden will propose a commission to look into it and then do nothing. Why are you even expecting anything that you went out and look for it?

Why is incarceration the only solution to crime you're proposing? And what about minimum sentencing laws? Maggots in prison food? The 13th amendment prohibiting slavery except when you've been convicted? The socio-economic consequences disproportionally affecting blacks leading to more crime? The historic violence perpetrated against blacks for which they've never been compensated?

I agree with you that the police not doing their job is not going to solve anything. But the police is not there to solve social issues. That's not their role and yet they get most of the money in most US cities. If your only tool is a hammer, there's a very limited amount of problems you can reasonably fix and you'll make most problems worse.

I'm going to shamelessly plug a previous thread I started where I think my OP is pertinent to this situation. In short: past accrued benefits from immoral behaviour are protected, whereas past accrued damages from being the victim of immoral behaviour cannot be legally recouped --> is injustice.

The politics of responsibility

I think it's naive. Not using "black" would not allow us to describe what it is to be black as a decidedly different proposition from being white. Once equal opportunity and equality before the law are real, even then, it would be stupid as we'd no longer be able to ask "are we really equal before the law and do we really have equal opportunity?" if we don't know what differences are justified and which aren't. Working more and longer is a difference that leads to justified differences in pay. Gender and skin colour aren't. So once you fix it, how are you going to make sure it stays that way if you stop recognising what unacceptable grounds for differences are?

Denial of reality is not going to solve any problem. Ever.

I would say it's a form of appeasement of it. I also think that many people will defend against the idea of systemic racism because acknowledging it would mean that their world view of individualistic free-will has problems. They do not defend their view with facts, but out of the necessity to deny any form of systemic or structure since their ideology cannot exist if such systems and structures exist.

For them, the very notion of a structure and systemic thing is an attack against their worldview, that's why they abandon facts and knowledge in favor of empty phrases and low-quality arguments. — Christoffer

Weird. Even chaotic systems, eg. where everyone would be a self sufficient atomised unit in society, patterns emerge. Even if hardcore individualism and agency was a thing, you can still have systemic racism as an emergent property of the whole. That's why even when there would be no racists, society could still be racist.

Is it not also well known that blacks commit crimes at a higher rate than whites?

If it is okay for blacks to use the fact that some police are corrupt to then make the assumption that all police are corrupt, then how is it not okay for police to assume that blacks commit crimes?

If it is wrong to make assumptions about an individual based on the interactions you've had, or heard about, with other individuals that share some characteristic, then it is wrong for others to do. — Harry Hindu

I'm not making assumptions about individuals in the police force at all, systemic racism isn't about personal agency. It's how society acqueisces, or worse has people like you excusing it or denying it, that causes systemic racism to endure.

The comparison between police and blacks ignores historic causes and the continued effects they have to this day. So apples and oranges.

I've just narrowed it down to certain ads being on screen causing a redirect without me selecting the ad. That has to be illegal...

Watch this : https://www.instagram.com/tv/CBHRUMSJH1B/?igshid=12j3s6gon05s0

Much respect for the black people on PF and other online communities taking the time out for educating us on shit we should've figured out on our own years ago.

Better question for this thread is, is questioning the existence of systemic racism in the US, an act of racism itself?

More self-education: 13th on Netflix.

Don't you need to know what is in the mind of the individual if they aren't using racial slurs to make it clear that it was racism? — Harry Hindu

Maybe you need to educate yourself on what systemic racism entails. If doesn't require overt acts of racism. That blacks are treated differently by police is well known. It's precisely why this white woman said what she said:

https://www.nytimes.com/video/us/100000007159234/amy-cooper-dog-central-park-police-video.html

She didn't call in the hopes of coincidentally getting a racist on the line. She called knowing that her framing of being threatened by an African American, when she bloody well wasn't, would illicit a faster and harder response from the police.

The rest has been discussed at length in this thread. Meanwhile, you can read up here : https://docs.google.com/document/d/1BRlF2_zhNe86SGgHa6-VlBO-QgirITwCTugSfKie5Fs/edit?usp=drivesdk

http://bit.ly/ANTIRACISMRESOURCES

For white people.

One week of returning apologists and I'm already fed up.

You can find that in my recent post history actually. But yes, you are asking obedience in the guise of rationality. You love order above justice whereas I think civil disobedience is a duty where society perpetuates injustice where fundamental rights are infringed by state actors. Depending on the circumstances that may include violence.

That's supposed to be what politics and Parliament is for. It doesn't work to correct racial and socio economic injustice. This "play nice" has to go until such time as there's some assurances with regard to policies that work so that police brutality will stop. No sitting in a room until there's a genuine offer of good will from the rest of society. Until that time the rest of society can majorly fuck off.

Yes, let's compromise on justice. Great idea.

As a trial lawyer, I do love me a good jury, if for no other reason than you stick a bunch of disagreeable people in a small room and you tell them that that's where they'll sit until they reach a solution. So I'd put a representative of each in this room: a Republican, a Democrat, a police officer, a business owner, a minister, a teacher, a protester, and I don't know, but you get the picture. And their task will be to set up a march and to offer a speech, and they will need to figure out what they all need to say in unison. And if they can't figure out what they all agree upon and need to say, then they'll sit in that room until they get hungry enough, thirsty enough, and ornery enough to knock on the door and let us know they've reached a verdict. Surely there is something everyone wishes to say. — Hanover

Sounds like an excellent way of catering to the lowest common denominator and stick with the status quo.

The phony protesters near Lafayette park were not peaceful and are not real. They are terrorists. — John Dowd

Which one is it? They can't be not real and real terrorists at the same time.

I was attacked by paramilitary unicorns!

Is that city or State?

The Netherlands spends 4.5 billion per year for 18 million people. Budget is set to decrease slightly.
I do feel the Dutch police is not well equipped to handle large organised crime but on the other hand organised crime tends to stay in the shadows mostly. And obviously, if you're poor or even unemployed in NL, you're not as fucked as in the USA.

Did you know there's actually a very good economic argument to pay unemployed people well? Unemployed people are necessary to grease the wheels of the labour market. If everyone was employed, how are you going to replace that non-performing employee? You couldn't. So the unemployed perform the all important function of creating flexibility for companies and companies should be taxed for that opportunity so we can pay the unemployed a fair amount for their critical role in the functioning of the labour market.

BTS — StreetlightX

What is that?

That's almost twice as much money per capita as the entire police corps in the Netherlands and includes for us the forensic labs, port authority, police academy and immigration control as well.

TL;DR version: don't post on fucking Facebook.

I'll be the last to say the Bible doesn't contain any truths. :-)

Yeah. You're right, unfortunately.

Let's hope so. And then the healing needs to start; how on earth are you going to get those die-hard Trump supporters back into the fold of a united nation?

Racism will have bad consequences for white folk, too. But it does not follow that white lives do not matter. — Banno

Agree.

I would have given ernestm some of my time, had he not concluded that I am black from my attitude.

He's too hurt to be helped. — Banno

I understand your reaction. But the reply is like slamming the door in someone's face, which, when you're hurting, is not going to help. I'm not convinced this is the right venue to get help either but I'm willing to give it a shot as far as my limited time allows. I'm a cat person too, I suppose.

Some people -- white and not white -- would affirm white people's general guilt. I don't, even if white (middle class) people were the beneficiaries of the government policy. — Bitter Crank

I'm not sure it's that black and white. It's not as if white people haven't had an opportunity to become aware and once they were aware to vote for politicians that would enact different policies. They didn't. And I think the answer to that question is relatively simple: if you're white, racism is not your problem. Except, of course, when they protest.

What's probably an aggravating problem here is that class analysis is considered a Marxist exercise and "whoa, scary socialists". So poverty is a personal problem, you're lazy if you're poor and you deserve it. Nothing to do with how society works. And the worst about it is, those poor people usually work 2 jobs (usually standing on two feet too) just to make ends meet, while the rich complain about their 60 hour work weeks interspersed with luxurious lunches, fat pay-checks, holidays, comfort and the freedom to choose to live differently.

Even when a very successful player in the capitalist system tells you "There’s class warfare, all right, but it’s my class, the rich class, that’s making war, and we’re winning" class analysis is still shunned in the USA.

Anyhoo, since this thread is about personal experience. Let's also discuss what white people can do to help minorities as well. And I've thought a lot about to what extent it is even my place to talk about racism as a priviledged white man in the Netherlands (with some obvious faults). But not saying anything would be a betrayal of my beliefs of what a fair and just society is about.

So I'll give you some of the bad things. I think I just insulted/put off @180proof with the suggestion for a book title. In a thread about racism. Illustrating I'm still ignorant. Sorry for that. I can explain what I thought I was trying to say but it doesn't make it less ignorant. And I'm still ignorant as to why exactly due to the language barrier.

At 14 I had two good black friends (I went to an international school) and after a holiday where I got a good tan I saw them and proclaimed: "I almost joined you as a nigger!". After their initial shock they explained to me I should never ever say that again and why. It was my first time I became a bit aware.

During my student years a lot of jokes among white students involved the word "neger" which means "nigger" in Dutch. I'm pretty sure I told them myself and I certainly didn't speak out.

Being a non-racist is like a journey where you know you don't want to be one but you'll end up being a bit racist because you don't know better (ignorance) or adapt in some situations (ignorance and peer pressure). And I think I didn't seriously start that journey until I was around 30 or so.

My best friend has a mixed-race relationship and two kids. We talk about racism often and about the more insidious forms of it. The forms we barely notice. So here's some things from my personal experience that all-white people can do:

1. Listen. The first question in my mind I ask when people tell me about their experiences with racism (or mysogyny etc.) is: "Have I ever had to worry about this?". If the answer is no, I don't know and I can only try to understand vicariously.
2. In my last workplace I had a chance to decide on the norms and values of the organisation. So I pushed on diversity and inclusivity. We had quite a few minorities working there so a lot of people thought it wasn't necessary. Until I pointed out the pay grades. All the minorities were in the low paying jobs. And I had to move people from thinking about diversity (which is just head count) to inclusivity, which is about taking aboard differences and actually getting input from across the board.
3. Raising your kids to be aware. I actively pursue finding books and films with minority heroes. For instance, Moana instead of Frozen (if it has to be Disney). Black dolls. Black barbies etc. to counteract the negative stereotyping in society. There's very little to be had in Dutch though. :-( My daughter is 5, I'm already trying to talk about skin colour with her and the most beautiful thing about kids is that their innocence means the fairness and justice we later have to learn again, because we unlearn them living in society, comes totally natural. When in doubt, you can trust your child's moral compass! I go on a long weekend with my friend and his 5 year old so she has positive association with non-white kids because the village I live in is all white (seriously).
4. Silence is not an options. Nowadays, I do speak up at work, within the extended family (which contains some hard core racists, joy) when I hear things that are racist.
5. Support a cause. Put your money where your mouth is. In my case that's Amnesty International.

I don't feel like I have enough information to go on. It's one thing if neighbours don't want to talk to the police, it's another if they won't talk to a neighbour.

It's then surprising actually to read other questions in your reaction to me. You should've asked him.

Ernestm is going through a couple of steps reaching a conclusion we both don't support but saying "that's wrong" does nothing but invalidate his experiences without knowing where it takes a turn to the wrong conclusion. That's why I have questions. It's not a bad faith OP compared to some other racism apologists on this site (we all know who).

Maybe that's too much gloves on for your taste but I'd like to understand more of his situation.

First of, did you talk to your neighbours? How do you know they knew who were in the gang?

Blaggard to make it less obvious?

I'm partial to fantasy and considering what's going on, what about "The Blackguard"? :razz: You can call the character Virgil.

self-realisation — I like sushi

:chin:

Chester’s posts - agreement with what he says is irrelevant - were of no more ‘poor quality’ than some off-hand quips and insults thrown around by others with far less to say. — I like sushi

If al your posts are like that then it's a problem. Quips and the occasional insult aren't an issue in and of themselves.

At least in the android store. Don't know about iPhone. They also made euclidea and pythagoras but those are two dimensional. That last one had really bad English though.

For those who like geometry, check out the app xsection. It's starts off easy enough. I solved all of them in the end so if you get stuck, give me a holler. Except for the last two, which solutions I can't reproduce because it was luck when I did it.

Review a bit of Street's twitter link above as to why some of the ideas don't help. I was surprised body cameras don't make a difference to be honest.

Interesting research via that Twitter link.

So when we drop bombs on other countries, we shrug and it's collateral damage. But protesters beware!

I'm sorry for the homeless guy but it's totally irrelevant.

So if the political will isn't there for not just police reform, but a change of economic policy, then what is the next step? The elections aren't until November, and whoever does get elected will not necessarily change much. If the political will doesn't materialize, and I don't think it will, what level of disobedience to the system is justified & effective? Will property damage cause enough disruption to force the holders of economic power to the table? Will just being out in the street, refusing to comply with curfews etc. continue to build pressure?

Thinking about it, it's hard to maintain any hope that anything can cause the necessary change. Just like with gun control, climate change etc. — Echarmion

I think you're correct in your assessment that these changes will not be overnight or that it's not just about police reform. But you mustn't confuse what effective means here. You're looking at the endgame and seeing it's so far removed from where it is now, that you don't see the road to it. It's taken step-by-step. There's nothing wrong with incremental change.

So I think all civil disobedience is justified until such time as there are concrete proposals on the table for police reform with reasonable assurances that the plans will be implemented. That seems to be the immediate, and justified, demand of the protesters at this time.

It's not enough for a fair and just society but it's a good start.