I'm pretty good, considering, thanks for the concern though. — unenlightened

Yes, unenlightened, only good things are directed your way from me.

I have a daughter working in a hospital and that's a worry, but I'm loving the less traffic and hearing some birdsong again — unenlightened

I'm sorry and pleased.

This is the Swedish Fallacy, a logical fallacy I've discovered. It's the argument that since it works in Sweden, it can work anywhere. The truth is that everything works in Sweden. If they decided to turn their prisoners into legislators and to pay everyone to shit on the sidewalk, it would somehow increase the GNP. — Hanover

How do you explain the fact that it works, Hanny? It's all documented, researched, and backed by the Swedish krona.

Luckily, we still are homo sapiens, despite such variance in psychology and sociological traits.

I think there's one of those white rhinos left in the entire world. One. — ernestm

Yeah, people are repugnant. Some...

I'm not talking about killing pet cats, fuck that shit.

Should we? omg! After a black gang shot my cat, and living in a very poor area at thetime, the police just thought it funny. I have to say, I really wanted those kids in jail for life. Shooting at my house windows, that was another thing entirely. Thats up to me to defend myself. But shooting a pet cat, which has no defenses at all against it, that is beyond my ability to comprehend. Shock therapy, brain surgery, I dont know. Prison for life, definitely. What could a person do next after shooting my pet? — ernestm

Oh my fucking God. Oh my fucking God!

When have you known this to be the case, if ever at all? — aRealidealist

Scandinavia has one of the most lax crime system ever, and they don't get away with a lot, neither in terms of taxation. Here in the US, it's such fucking lunacy, that I am baffled and wondering if I should move to Sweden.

What is anxiety, but, not a form of self-punishment? Fear in the extreme.

So you advise to teach children no rules for behavior & interaction? They should simply just act how they wish without any correction or consequence? As another person has already said, seems like you’re pushing for anarchy, which would create as much oppression or chaos, the physically strong ruling over the weak type of scenario, as you claim that contractualism leads to. — aRealidealist

Not at all. It seems to me that punishment entails, self-punishment and reprisal in fear at such a young age, that we could get by without the whole ordeal to start with.

Sure, not technical laws of jurisprudence, but are you saying that children shouldn’t be taught rules of behavior & interaction at all? Moreover, this necessarily doesn’t imply fear but caution & moderation, which isn’t a bad thing. — aRealidealist

I don't think teaching children about laws produces anything but neuroticism and fear and maladjustment disorders. It's all therapy at its core.

It doesnt seem a hopeless situation. — ernestm

Yet, the problem persists, and continues to persist. Should we just delve into some thought therapy, or hippocampus memory insertion?

Sure, I don’t deny modern “contractualist” states can over do it, but that’s not an objection to contractualism, per say, but just to how certain modern states have employed it, which I’m not against objecting to. — aRealidealist

Contractual ism is wrong, should we be educating children about laws? They'll just grow up in fear.

However it has been shown to produce more economic success, which means, however much the current system of punishment in the USA may not be as fair or as corrective as in other cultures, such as the Netherlands for example, its here to stay and we have to accept it for what it is, despite innumerable irratoinalities. — ernestm

Irrationality in the extreme if I may be so bold!

What? Can you please rephrase the question. — aRealidealist

I don't understand the point of a social contract in a society that has thousands of laws to abide by.

How can that world in our modern-world with 1000's of laws to abide by?

So do you prefer anarchy or some form of retribution? — A Seagull

I do not know. I simply reject this current system of punishment and law-abridgment.

I am all for advancing the discussion but reject the notion it is not something we have been struggling with for a long time. — Valentinus

Then why do we still struggle with it so badly? Is there any room for progress?

Although I don’t deny that the justice system has or can quite unjustly impose such a consequence onto some people; nonetheless, there are times when it’s justified & has the desired effect. — aRealidealist

Desired??? By whom? God on his almighty throne? Or some judge?

“holding cells” of jail or prison. — aRealidealist

:cry:

What a crazy world. The fact that no better alternative can be entertained as a correctional implementation is enough to negate the just world theory.

Is there a better gathering of people who feel like they do have a choice? — Valentinus

Relative to what? Are we talking in absolutes here?

Is that theater completely separated from the options people have in dire circumstances? — Valentinus

I don't think they feel like they have a choice at some point.

If you wake up and cannot feed your family, that is life. — Valentinus

I think it boils down to retaliation towards some perceived threat. I mean by this, even inaction.

Life punishes us. The choices we make come back to us hard and fast. It is a luxury if one can buffer the results. But nobody rides free. — Valentinus

What a bunch of baloney. Life punishes us? Really? What does that even mean?

People attempt to make the world seem more just by inventing a system of values and justice to validate their actions and beliefs. — Andrew4Handel

Oh my fucking God, what a travesty. If I die, it will be with a smile on my face that this world was corrupted by the insane.

So, I guess, that’s how I would explain a perpetrator’s crime in relation to an either unexpressed or understated negative consequence; either in it not being not something which is viewed/experienced as expressly negative, i.e., impudence, or in it not being known that something negative will be a consequence of it, i.e., ignorance. — aRealidealist

Is it really the experience, or knowledge or lack-thereof? If people knew how many people actually DON'T get away with crimes, things would shift so dramatically.

Yes. — creativesoul

Nuu, the golden rules assumes nothing without a principle of equivalence. Where it cannot be met, it fails.

The Golden Rule mistakenly assumes that everyone likes being treated the same way. — creativesoul

No.

I think the US is so incredibly obsessed with punishment, that I'm honest to God afraid for people who make mistakes in it.

It might also come from the just world fallacy and the fundamental attribution error where people subconsciously believe life is fair and people are to blame when things go wrong.

I do think people can be malicious can be to blame but I still don't want to harm another person as retribution. — Andrew4Handel

I think you're onto something. Do go on.

Punishment seems to spring from anger to me. — Andrew4Handel

And what else, resentment? I can't stand the idea honestly.

If a person murders and is sent to prison...is that "punishment" or is it simply removal from society in order to protect those the offender has not already murdered? — Frank Apisa

Good question. I think it's perceived as punishment in the least, to every party involved. Whilst, the act may be intended towards different consequences.

The question, then, becomes whether it provides any utility within the realm of human society and culture, or whether it can safely be discarded. — Theorem

My assumption, is that it can be disposed with, but... unfortunately, things will be acted upon, and unfortunately, have to be dealt with. I just think that re-distributive justice has taken an extreme form lately.

If you can you give example of such a scenario, I’m sure that I’d be able to better answer your question. — aRealidealist

A theft? A murder? By definition, any *crime*.

LOL :lol: — aRealidealist

How do you explain behavior that takes place in spite of understatement of its negative consequence for both parties involved?

So, in my opinion, negative consequences have to be demonstrated in response to undesirable behaviors for beings without a higher cognition; yet not necessarily for beings with a higher cognition, as they can conceive or imagine of certain kinds of consequences without these actually ever being demonstrated as such. — aRealidealist

Yes.

https://gph.is/Zfh9X7

Everyone doesn't think it's wrong. — Hanover

You accept punishment, willingly?

Why? — Theorem

Animals punish each-other without end. It's so typical that's it's almost primitive...

In my opinion, “negative reinforcement”; by associating something negative, or undesirable, with a given act, one will, usually, cease to commit that action due to their aversion of the consequences accompanying it. — aRealidealist

But, does this have to be demonstrated in act only?

Speaking in evolutionary terms, I suspect that the emotional satisfaction associated from seeking retribution evolved as a mechanism for preventing individuals from being exploited by others — Theorem

There seems more to it than that, in my view. I think of punishment as a relic of evolutionary rudimentary psychology. Ask me why.

People seek, in such a deep sense, the desire for retribution over errs and heresy.

I have felt a desire for vengeance.

Why is punishment so satisfying?