If the thread were renamed "Let's Talk About Depression Every Day Without Ever Doing Anything About It" I'd withdraw all complaints. — Jake

Hmm, that's a tad harsh don't you think? I mean, how does one objectify progress when dealing with depression?

All good!

I think it's a great idea. Wonder how it can be implemented in the forum.

Thanks for sharing the Wittgenstein read.

Must read more Wittgenstein, ADHD allowing.

On the other hand, apart from my lack or lesser disliking of Trump, I haven't seen the necessary steps being taken by the Democratic party to ensure that he doesn't get reelected. I mean to say, that there is no appeal to ideals or a more social democrat, which have consistently shown a greater amount of engagement and stimulus provided to voters. So, if the Democratic nominee loses the reelection, I won't be surprised.

Furthermore, even if the Dems win the House, and less likely the Senate, then Trump will find a way to spin whatever lack of progress on any passing of laws on the Democrats, in my opinion.


Thoughts?

Don't wanna. Can't muster the motivation to do so. Always apathetic and/or depressed.

Nice song though.

I wouldn't say that it goes either way just because I've heard stories both ways -- sometimes it goes away, and the reasons for that vary (from constant medication to a quick visit to talk therapy); and sometimes it does not, and you need to either always go through talk therapy or medication or both. — Moliere

Yeah, I can't say I feel all that depressed. Although, I do sit home all day and do nothing productive with my time other than post here or lay in bed. I don't like talk therapy because my therapist want's to get me out of depression, but, I'm comfortable with my diagnosis or live a life that is accustomed to being depressed.

Quite a conundrum if you ask me.

On the other hand if a depressed person tells herself that improving diet and exercise habits is too difficult and/or couldn't possibly help, and so on, then that self-diagnosis would likely be self-fulfilling, I would think. — Janus

Yes, there's an element of fortune telling in the diagnosis of depression. One is depressed because they act depressed, or so the rationale goes.

I have to mention though, that it's often an ordeal for (me at least) a person to go to psychotherapy. It's uncomfortable to talk about your issues and having your preconceived beliefs challenged by a (good) therapist. I don't think to go to a therapist, and having them nod their head and only act as a listener to your complaints about yourself, others, and the world is good. Beliefs need to be challenged for change to happen.

I should say that I think medication is great. That's what works for me. Though there is variability, the common prescriptions work great -- I started with the basic exercise, diet, sleep, etc., and eventually I landed in a place where that was not enough. But medication got me out of the deepest slump and gave me the opportunity to work through what I needed to. It's not over yet for me, but it's also much better than it has been. — Moliere

Would you say that depression goes away, or just one has to learn to cope with it? I mean, the mental filter that gets distorted when depressed is constantly being distorted by depression. So, I am wondering how does coping work?

Usually, when one goes to any professional doctor or psychiatrist, it is recommended to first try talk therapy, and then proceed with medications. More often than not, doctors neglect to mention this, and the barrage of medications to take ensues. Fortunately, I found a doctor that is willing to treat my depression and recommended that I go to some psychotherapy meetings.

I guess that's why I said in one of your other threads about depression that you really just have to experiment with anything -- or at least that's what I did -- to finally find what works for you. While the description seems to be similar enough across time, or you can at least see a thread, the cure seems to vary incredibly. — Moliere

This is true. I suppose that depression does manifest itself in different forms and such. I just think that depression meds are useful in general for depression, and has clinical efficacy for clinical depression. This assumes that depression is endogenous and prone to being able to be dealt with in terms of medication.

Other times, depression can be remedied by external factors like a change in life circumstances or such. It would be nice to know beforehand what change led to the improvement in symptoms, but, more often than not, it's post hoc that we know what was the cause of improvement.

You'll at least wait a bit for the Guinea pig phase to end, and see what happens to the first wave, right? — All sight

Probably. I don't think I'll be the first customer. Too antsy about glitches and such.

He's also funny, in that he says that he doesn't really believe in a God, but still prays to any that perhaps might be listening for their blessings from time to time. — All sight

Pascal's wager! Haha

Don't laugh; but, I'm saving money to be able to be able to afford that Brain-Machine-Interface he's talking about with the creation of Neuralink, the company responsible for those Interfaces.

I think by 2020 it will come out for the public to utilize.

Well I would say that the shifting towards another dream is maybe the result of derealisation, but not the derealisation itself. Derealisation is more the temporary absence of the dream, a kind of madness or drunkeness where one doesn't stay very long usually... but it can maybe give some insights so that the following dream has shifted yes. — ChatteringMonkey

Yeah, by my previous post you'd think that's what someone on LSD or mushrooms would experience. Some form of controlled or uncontrolled psychosis.

De-realisation then would be falling out of that dream, or the unravelling of that 'fictitious' symbolic order... as opposed to how you used it in your post, as a turning away from reality towards a dream (where dream and reality are opposed). — ChatteringMonkey

Ah, I think I understand. So, derealization is just a shifting of one's dream to a more inwardly desire or dream from that of society or socio-cultural instilled or indoctrinated ones. Is that correct?

I think that he avoided consequentialism entirely. — All sight

Yes, he isn't interested in a brute logical AI system that would arbitrage a utility system for "one's" benefit. Besides, what use is money to a machine like AI and who is "one"? It can come up with solutions in a box or building. All it needs is electricity, so maybe that's all that it would value if self-preservation would be required for its continual existence.

I think he's great. I know, people made a big deal about it, were texting him right away about it too. The controversy! — All sight

Well, if money is involved then anything flies. More symptoms of a decrepit utility system of our society.

Though, he doesn't think that science is the answer, he thinks that love is. — All sight

Science may not be the answer; but, is a means in doing so. Just clarifying the ambiguity.

And, all the media reported was that he smoked a doobie during the interview, whoppitty f*cking do...

Mandatory to watch, IMO.

Well, it's Elon Musk. What do you expect, nothing less than a brilliant form of humanism derived or made possible through science?

And are the roles we play in those societies not more akin to that of actors on one big stage? I mean, if people would say to the slacker 'get real' or something along those lines, doesn't this mean that he needs to start working the social hierarchy, building a reputation and things like that. What is important is how people come to view us, that is the thing that has (monetary) value in the end, not the way we 'really' are. — ChatteringMonkey

Sorry, been meaning to get back to this post. I think you nailed it, with describing this in terms of the roles we play. It also consists of games we play also.

'De-realisation', I would content, is actually the opposite of turning away from reality... it's the unravelling of this dream-like apollonian structure in ones mind. If you want to experience that, I'd recomment getting drunk for a couple of days straight, and just walk arround a city observing people and things. — ChatteringMonkey

What do you mean by that? I'm not understanding your stipulative definition of 'de-realization'.

So translated to millennials, the critique then maybe is not that they are escaping reality, but more that they don't buy into the collective dream of previous generations, and are creating dreams of their own. And doing so, they actually are also 'real-ising' their own dreams. Just look at how big the gaming industry, E-sports etc have become... and how much money can be earned there. And what other then money would be the ultimate fiction as a measure of realness ;-)? — ChatteringMonkey

Yes, even money is a fictitious concept based on trust. Time to buy some gold! :smile:

We live our lives immersed in Kanye and Rihanna, Trump and Putin, Big Brother and America's Next Top Model. Are these not fantasy worlds? — Pattern-chaser

It sure is a form of fantasy world. Isn't that what entertainment is all about?

But, the issue is that isn't this all so childish and mundane an activity that anyone with a competent mind can see through this whole charade? What then?

I think Jake's contention that we cannot think ourselves out of our situations is right, or at least half-right. I think we must see our way out of our situations or at least into coping with them. And of course seeing will require much prior thinking, even if the seeing itself goes beyond mere analysis. But seeing also requires physical activity and well-being, even if it goes beyond mere health and activity. The way out of depression is to cultivate a balanced vision I would say. — Janus

I disagree with @Jake due to the fact that these simple and elegant behavioral tactics or strategies are not able to be realized in full by the depressive. It's too much to ask a depressive to get out and start doing fitness routines or eat more healthy.

So, what you're saying was that depression was not severe enough an impediment in the past to cause individuals to not be able to reproduce? How about clinical depression or major depressive disorder, are those conditions also not severe enough to merit the same situations of not being disabled enough to reproduce?

I think that's why depression is so enduring. Because we may be able to recognize it, identify it, talk about it -- but we do not have the same kind of knowledge of minds as we do of bones. — Moliere

Seems about right to assert this. Is it that the mind is so complex that depression is hard to treat, still?

Start a community that sees life in this way. — schopenhauer1

Yes, but how ought are community ought look like?

If all of this is true, and we know that a tree will fall in an empty forest with no people around, then what's left is coping.

Please start a thread on how to cope with this lack and structural suffering you speak of.

Which is fine, but this is a philosophy forum and so a reach for clarity is appropriate. If this thread is just talk for the sake of talk, ok, no problem, but let's face that, admit it, and accept it. — Jake

I agree to some extent. So, let's talk about depression? It seems like we're making progress in that regard.

It seems to me that depression is, more or less depending on its intensity, a refusal to carry on; that is a refusal to cope. As living beings there will always be for us adversities to either cope with or attempt to ignore, run away from and so on. — Janus

Well, my point was that it's a poor strategy to utilize. To cope with something one must be aware of what is being coped with. I don't think anyone would be aware of what they are coping with in depression. It's just a state of mind that doesn't bode any utility to living life.

I think unenlightened's monolithic view of therapies is not only unenlightened, but uninformed and unhelpful. Of course different therapies have different and more or less helpful things to offer different individuals; you have to search and find what works for you. It's also true that any form of therapy, just like other forms of human activity can become cult-like, and that's a danger for the unwary, to be sure. — Janus

His analysis is derived from fear. Fear of what is the pertaining question...

Jake's advice to simply distract yourself with activities that short circuit thought is OK, as I see it, but it's a very partial, limited approach. Adequate diet and physical activity are certainly a necessary part of any healthy life, though.The point is that you have to find what works for you. Of all things there is nothing more pragmatic than therapy, I would say. — Janus

I like Jake's pragmatic approach. But it's too mechanized and people are intricate to put them through such a cookie cutter approach. No, ill sentiments on my part in saying that.

I suspect that depression is indeed a form of coping with life. I only wonder if it is effective. And, since it is not effective, then what can be done to alter one's conception of depression?

I think it is fairly common to think that depression is a coping strategy itself. Feelings one cannot cope with are depressed, because one can cope with depression. Then there are the pills that numb the numbness... Coping is the reasonable insanity that most everyone suffers from. — unenlightened

Interesting. So, depression is a coping strategy itself. Why is depression such a failure of a coping strategy, since most people don't feel as though it helps them in any manner? You seem to suggest that depression is a coping strategy from trauma in childhood. Then, what about the ordinary depression that afflicts many people who haven't had traumatic experiences?

What would it be like not to cope? — unenlightened

What do you mean to say by this? That it would be unbearable to experience the pain and trauma inflicted on an individual?

Depression is amazing to me because it is the self-generated content of the mind. — unenlightened

You mean to say that depression is non-dysphoric? Doesn't that mean they have learned to cope with it?

Nothing is more unoriginal or inauthentic. — unenlightened

What do you think about dreams as a return to the belly of a pregnant mother? It sounds silly, but it seems to point that way. But, on the topic of dreams. There's a lot of content that has meaning and content equivalent to what you expect from everyday life. But, then why not live in a solipsistic world safe from harm from other people or things?

And the techniques are described in this book. For me, it was a transformative book; just reading the accounts of sessions and the theory of them took my life in a different direction. — unenlightened

I just ordered it. What should I suspect of it? I suspect that there was some deep issue of the cultish folk(?) to believe in (or not) in the Hippocratic oath.

I am very critical of psychology in general and think of it more as a branch of religion than of science. — unenlightened

Yet, people have a need for psychologists. Most that I've met are very compassionate and are cognizant to maintain that "safe space" to ensure a feeling of safety from psychological harm.

This could be a very interesting thread of it's own. You know, the whole culture is moving steadily towards ever an deeper fantasy dream immersion with technologies such as virtual reality etc. — Jake

I would very much like to see a thread on that topic if you could start one. It's not a challenge, just out of curiosity.

I'll ponder on what you said. It seems like the correct solution, logically.

Just babbling here; but, I want to live as in my dreams - away from responsibility, deficiencies, self-labeling and so on.

Dreams are amazing to me because they are the self-generated content of the mind. Nothing is more original or authentic than a dream.

I'm very much like that too, as you can see from this excessively wordy post. — Jake

It's a great post, what can I say. :smile:

However, if we analyze well enough and long enough we may come to realize that analysis may be more of a problem than it is a solution. But, if the truth is that we're not really seeking a solution, then so what, on with the analyzing. — Jake

It's an analysis of the desire to live a better or more fulfilling life.

I have to say that your Skinnerian approach to depression is very much welcome; but, how do you deal with the self-criticism and my honesty about my form of depression?

Let me give an example. In my dreams, I am not depressed. Everything flows effortlessly and without restraint. Why is that so? Why are dreams an escape for me from depression? My dreams don't even have real people in it. It's a comfortable solipsistic life. How can I turn my dreams into reality, as an escape from depression or some mental anguish of deficiencies?

Sorry, just doing a stream of consciousness post here. Hope you get my drift.

Thanks for posting!

hat racist guy is just stupid, by choice (he's blinded himself to the truth). — BrianW

So, it is the truth that is being suppressed here? The truth of what exactly? That he's a bigoted racist?

His inability to answer the question proves he doesn't have that compartment. — BrianW

Compartment of what?

If he truly believed (instead of just wishing) that white people were superior to black people (or other races) then it would have been somewhat convincing towards a case of compartmentalisation. — BrianW

I think no cognitive dissonance occurred in his mind. It seems to be straight up compartmentalization of some kind.

I see compartments as constructs with deep-rooted ties of logic (reasonable associations, but according to the person's capacity to reason) and meaning extracted from experience; every compartment with its history of experiences attached to it, whether real (actual) or fabricated (delusional). — BrianW

Sounds about right. I don't think compartmentalization only serves as a defense mechanism. It could be implemented in different sorts of situations also.

Also, from my perspective, it is not compartmentalisation if the 'compartments' do not relate to each other logically. — BrianW

That's where we differ. I think in the case of the white nationalist, some compartmentalization accords or (in this case) is in discord with one's perception of oneself. It's just that he doesn't experience cognitive dissonance due to the level of compartmentalization taking place in his mind.

If the person, when focused in one compartment, is not (or cannot be) aware of the others, consciously to some degree, then, it's insanity (an impairment of the mind). — BrianW

Interesting that you put it that way. Typically, insanity or psychosis of some form results in the abberation of compartmentalizations that one has. Every-thing becomes endowed with significance or meaning.

For me, compartmentalisation is, 'when in rome do as the romans do'. It is a distinctive language for each person, occasion or circumstance; not something a serial killer would have to prevent him from coming to terms with his depravity. Even the latter is a kind of compartmentalisation, but it's a coping mechanism born from reaction or response to an impairment (disease) of the mind (as a way to preserve decency, normalcy, right-perspective, etc). It implies an innate awareness of the presence of the disease. — BrianW

What is that disease?

Not sure about that. It could be bias.

Was your OP describing someone who had systematically compartmentalised their rationalisations so as to avoid the logical inconsistencies involved? That would take a lot of prior work. — apokrisis

Is that even possible, is what I'm asking? Can you check to see if you're beliefs are inconsistent with reality? Am, I just talking about scientism here?

Or did they camp on the edge of a pleasant stream and wake the next morning to find it had become a swamping flood? — apokrisis

In the case of the white nationalist, I think it was just a matter of prejudice getting in the way of reality. His beliefs are simply at odds with the majority of people, and hence his mind is compartmentalized in such a way that it shows when talking about slavery or races.

Folk who don't like their inconsistencies being fingered just tend to check out because they were never trying to defend some larger coherent territory anyway. Being comfortable is the first priority. — apokrisis

So, it's a matter of inconsistencies? In respect to what a compartmentalized mind is inconsistent towards? The world, reality, truth?

Whenever we talk about subjects the process of compartmentalization seems to take place. We cannot comprehend the totality of some subject in relation to ourselves. We use, "I, me, you, he, she, it."

An interesting failure of compartmentalization is found in the sentence:

It is raining.

Where is the subject in that sentence?