I've posted many times about depression. I don't know what more is to say about it other than just accept it and move on. Yet, I'm here again posting about it beating the dead horse. I want to say something profound about depression; but, there's not much for me to say about it. It really is an unpleasant feeling to have to talk about it all the time; but, I figure it is something worth talking about so here I am again taking about it. — Posty McPostface

Your honesty is refreshing, bravo for that.

I don't know you or your situation, so all I can really comment on is what I'm hearing. What I'm hearing may or may not be representative of what is actually happening, you'll have to decide that.

As you say, you're beating a dead horse, which is fine, no problem. If you wish to talk about depression go ahead and talk, that's what forums are for. However, your posts will become more interesting when the focus of them shifts from discussing depression, to doing something about it. The best I can offer in that regards is something like the following.

We have two words for "mind" and "body", but in the real world mind and body are really one thing. So for example, if I get a massage all the compulsive complaining thoughts in my mind recede substantially, even though I've done nothing at all to analyze those thoughts. That is, I've constructively addressed the very complicated realm of problematic thought content with a purely physical mechanical method.

What's good about purely physical mechanical methods is that they don't require understanding. Complexity is removed from the equation. I get a massage, or I don't, simple. I do yoga or I don't, simple. I upgrade my diet or I don't, simple. I get regular exercise or I don't, simple.

Removing complexity from the situation is good news for those looking for concrete specific steps they can use to ease depression. Removing complexity from the situation is bad news for those who prefer the experience of abstract complexity over down to earth practical action oriented solutions.

As best I can tell from this long distance, and I may be wrong, you are in this later group, you prefer complexity over simplicity, and don't really care if complexity is the most effective way to address depression. You like to analyze, and so you are analyzing. I'm very much like that too, as you can see from this excessively wordy post.

However, if we analyze well enough and long enough we may come to realize that analysis may be more of a problem than it is a solution. But, if the truth is that we're not really seeking a solution, then so what, on with the analyzing.

I'm very much like that too, as you can see from this excessively wordy post. — Jake

It's a great post, what can I say. :smile:

However, if we analyze well enough and long enough we may come to realize that analysis may be more of a problem than it is a solution. But, if the truth is that we're not really seeking a solution, then so what, on with the analyzing. — Jake

It's an analysis of the desire to live a better or more fulfilling life.

I have to say that your Skinnerian approach to depression is very much welcome; but, how do you deal with the self-criticism and my honesty about my form of depression?

Let me give an example. In my dreams, I am not depressed. Everything flows effortlessly and without restraint. Why is that so? Why are dreams an escape for me from depression? My dreams don't even have real people in it. It's a comfortable solipsistic life. How can I turn my dreams into reality, as an escape from depression or some mental anguish of deficiencies?

Sorry, just doing a stream of consciousness post here. Hope you get my drift.

Thanks for posting!

Just babbling here; but, I want to live as in my dreams - away from responsibility, deficiencies, self-labeling and so on.

Dreams are amazing to me because they are the self-generated content of the mind. Nothing is more original or authentic than a dream.

It's an analysis of the desire to live a better or more fulfilling life. — Posty McPostface

I'm unclear of your meaning here. Are you saying your posts represent a search for ways to lead a more fulfilling life? Or, are you saying instead that your posts are an analysis of that desire? Or something else?

Here's a thought experiment that may help clarify the goal. Let's imagine for a moment that it was conclusively proven that philosophy was worthless for treating depression and the only solution was to take up playing golf. What would your choice be in such a hypothetical? Continue with philosophy because you like analyzing things, or would you set philosophy aside and start shopping for golf clubs?

I have to say that your Skinnerian approach to depression is very much welcome; but, how do you deal with the self-criticism and my honesty about my form of depression? — Posty McPostface

My focus, which doesn't have to be your focus, is on identifying constructive helpful steps which can be taken immediately without any further delay. That's why I keep pitching mechanical approaches. There's nothing at all stopping us from applying them right now.

If we choose not to apply readily available methods that is also useful, because such a choice would seem to tell us something about our relationship with the problem. You know, if I like to write about my typoholic mania disease, but the truth is I don't really want to do anything about it, then it would be clear minded of me to recognize and accept that I'm unlikely to find a solution. This could be a fine outcome, so long as I make peace with the price tag that comes with not curing my typoholic mania.

n my dreams, I am not depressed. Everything flows effortlessly and without restraint. Why is that so? Why are dreams an escape for me from depression? — Posty McPostface

I'm happy that this is so, but don't claim to understand it.

Many people have spent a lifetime in therapy trying to understand such things. That's their choice of course. My question would be, do you want to wait until you understand everything before you reach a positive change in the situation?

What I'm attempting to do in my posts is leapfrog over the entire understanding operation, because that can take a very long time. It's not that understanding is bad or wrong, I'm only saying perhaps we shouldn't make it condition which must be met. In my typoholic opinion, understanding should be put as an optional option way down the priority list.

Just babbling here; but, I want to live as in my dreams - away from responsibility, deficiencies, self-labeling and so on. Dreams are amazing to me because they are the self-generated content of the mind. Nothing is more original or authentic than a dream. — Posty McPostface

This could be a very interesting thread of it's own. You know, the whole culture is moving steadily towards ever an deeper fantasy dream immersion with technologies such as virtual reality etc.

Perceived deficiencies, self labeling etc are all made of thought. Perhaps we could think of thought as a kind of internal TV. If we turn the volume of the Thought TV down, the ads are still there, but they're less compelling, less annoying. Great philosophers like us :smile: like to think of ourselves as sophisticated commentators on the machinery of thought etc, but the truth is few of us even know where the on/off button or volume control on this machine is.

This could be a very interesting thread of it's own. You know, the whole culture is moving steadily towards ever an deeper fantasy dream immersion with technologies such as virtual reality etc. — Jake

I would very much like to see a thread on that topic if you could start one. It's not a challenge, just out of curiosity.

I'll ponder on what you said. It seems like the correct solution, logically.

I would very much like to see a thread on that topic if you could start one. It's not a challenge, just out of curiosity. — Posty McPostface

Ok, I'll work on that, been meaning to anyway.

I'll ponder on what you said. It seems like the correct solution, logically. — Posty McPostface

What I've said could be logically part of a solution IF....

.... you want a solution.

As best I can tell, neither of us are entirely clear whether that is true or not.

I'm probably rushing to the assumption that you want a solution so that I can play the glorious role of Baba Bozo in providing one.

Here is a cautionary tale for budding therapists in particular, and desperate clients in general. A quick skim will tell you why I don't generally recommend what I am about to recommend.

If you read my posts in any detail, you will know that I am very critical of psychology in general and think of it more as a branch of religion than of science. And this was a cult. Primal therapy was already a cult, and this was born of it. But cults function by means of effective psychological techniques.

And the techniques are described in this book. For me, it was a transformative book; just reading the accounts of sessions and the theory of them took my life in a different direction.

Dreams are amazing to me because they are the self-generated content of the mind. Nothing is more original or authentic than a dream. — Posty McPostface

Just as a tease, they have the notion of 'reasonable insanity'.

Depression is amazing to me because it is the self-generated content of the mind. Nothing is more unoriginal or inauthentic.

And the techniques are described in this book. For me, it was a transformative book; just reading the accounts of sessions and the theory of them took my life in a different direction. — unenlightened

I just ordered it. What should I suspect of it? I suspect that there was some deep issue of the cultish folk(?) to believe in (or not) in the Hippocratic oath.

I am very critical of psychology in general and think of it more as a branch of religion than of science. — unenlightened

Yet, people have a need for psychologists. Most that I've met are very compassionate and are cognizant to maintain that "safe space" to ensure a feeling of safety from psychological harm.

Depression is amazing to me because it is the self-generated content of the mind. — unenlightened

You mean to say that depression is non-dysphoric? Doesn't that mean they have learned to cope with it?

Nothing is more unoriginal or inauthentic. — unenlightened

What do you think about dreams as a return to the belly of a pregnant mother? It sounds silly, but it seems to point that way. But, on the topic of dreams. There's a lot of content that has meaning and content equivalent to what you expect from everyday life. But, then why not live in a solipsistic world safe from harm from other people or things?

What should I suspect of it? — Posty McPostface

Well, everything and nothing. Generally, reading is one of the safest forms of medication. But generally every psychology is in the business of messing with your head, and the more effective it is, the more dangerous it is, simply because power corrupts. But the cult is gone, and only the book remains

You mean to say that depression is non-dysphoric? Doesn't that mean they have learned to cope with it? — Posty McPostface

I think it is fairly common to think that depression is a coping strategy itself. Feelings one cannot cope with are depressed, because one can cope with depression. Then there are the pills that numb the numbness... Coping is the reasonable insanity that most everyone suffers from. What would it be like not to cope?

What do you think about dreams as a return to the belly of a pregnant mother? It sounds silly, but it seems to point that way. — Posty McPostface

I used to have a couple of recurring dreams; one of being in a field, and then finding I could not escape and a great pressure crushing me, the other of having to go down a passage to the living-room, and there being some un-nameable monster to get past. The moment I realised they were birth-memories, they stopped completely. I'm not certain, but I think that actual womb memories themselves are more or less contentless in most cases because there is no contrast; 'you don't know what you got 'til it's gone'. So one does not begin at the beginning, but only at the end of the beginning.

Feeling therapy is a good idea, it actually isn't very helpful to explain or point at the true cause, but what the hell? Eh? Ever see an MRI scan of someone?

You'll notice a difference in the elevation and broadness of the shoulders, and a slight head slant. Heart's asleep. Got to wake that baby up. Cry cry cry. Risk your life, lol. Numbness doesn't only stop the emotional pain, but it makes you not notice the physical either.

Focusing on the breath is a way to stay present, and out of the head. To stay absorbed, but one can also be lulled back into the world through keeping their heart beat in their ear. Listening to it. Listening long enough, and it may say some surprising things.

Need to shatter that heart of stone, otherwise it's dead weight.

I think it is fairly common to think that depression is a coping strategy itself. Feelings one cannot cope with are depressed, because one can cope with depression. Then there are the pills that numb the numbness... Coping is the reasonable insanity that most everyone suffers from. — unenlightened

Interesting. So, depression is a coping strategy itself. Why is depression such a failure of a coping strategy, since most people don't feel as though it helps them in any manner? You seem to suggest that depression is a coping strategy from trauma in childhood. Then, what about the ordinary depression that afflicts many people who haven't had traumatic experiences?

What would it be like not to cope? — unenlightened

What do you mean to say by this? That it would be unbearable to experience the pain and trauma inflicted on an individual?

I suspect that depression is indeed a form of coping with life. I only wonder if it is effective. And, since it is not effective, then what can be done to alter one's conception of depression?

It seems to me that depression is, more or less depending on its intensity, a refusal to carry on; that is a refusal to cope. As living beings there will always be for us adversities to either cope with or attempt to ignore, run away from and so on.

I think @unenlightened's monolithic view of therapies is not only unenlightened, but uninformed and unhelpful. Of course different therapies have different and more or less helpful things to offer different individuals; you have to search and find what works for you. It's also true that any form of therapy, just like other forms of human activity can become cult-like, and that's a danger for the unwary, to be sure.

@Jake's advice to simply distract yourself with activities that short circuit thought is OK, as I see it, but it's a very partial, limited approach. Adequate diet and physical activity are certainly a necessary part of any healthy life, though.The point is that you have to find what works for you. Of all things there is nothing more pragmatic than therapy, I would say.

It seems to me that depression is, more or less depending on its intensity, a refusal to carry on; that is a refusal to cope. As living beings there will always be for us adversities to either cope with or attempt to ignore, run away from and so on. — Janus

Well, my point was that it's a poor strategy to utilize. To cope with something one must be aware of what is being coped with. I don't think anyone would be aware of what they are coping with in depression. It's just a state of mind that doesn't bode any utility to living life.

I think unenlightened's monolithic view of therapies is not only unenlightened, but uninformed and unhelpful. Of course different therapies have different and more or less helpful things to offer different individuals; you have to search and find what works for you. It's also true that any form of therapy, just like other forms of human activity can become cult-like, and that's a danger for the unwary, to be sure. — Janus

His analysis is derived from fear. Fear of what is the pertaining question...

Jake's advice to simply distract yourself with activities that short circuit thought is OK, as I see it, but it's a very partial, limited approach. Adequate diet and physical activity are certainly a necessary part of any healthy life, though.The point is that you have to find what works for you. Of all things there is nothing more pragmatic than therapy, I would say. — Janus

I like Jake's pragmatic approach. But it's too mechanized and people are intricate to put them through such a cookie cutter approach. No, ill sentiments on my part in saying that.

I like Jake's pragmatic approach. But it's too mechanized and people are intricate to put them through such a cookie cutter approach. — Posty McPostface

Taking better care of our bodies is a place we can start. If we won't do even that, the rest of all this talk is probably just talk.

Which is fine, but this is a philosophy forum and so a reach for clarity is appropriate. If this thread is just talk for the sake of talk, ok, no problem, but let's face that, admit it, and accept it. In that case, I offer no complaint.

Which is fine, but this is a philosophy forum and so a reach for clarity is appropriate. If this thread is just talk for the sake of talk, ok, no problem, but let's face that, admit it, and accept it. — Jake

I agree to some extent. So, let's talk about depression? It seems like we're making progress in that regard.

So, let's talk about depression? It seems like we're making progress in that regard. — Posty McPostface

Making progress towards what? That's what I'm trying to help you clarify?

Making progress towards more talk? Yes, that seems true.

Making progress towards easing depression? I don't see that.

Again, I don't object to talk for the sake of talking, I just don't personally find that process all that interesting. Others may experience it differently of course.

@Posty McPostface -- Beebopping around the 'net I came across this interesting paper: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4314947/

reviewing the history of the term "melancholia"

What is not included here is the methods of treatment; it's only the conceptual diagnosis through time.

As for depression's interaction with evolution -- there are many, many diseases that are not effected by evolutionary pressures. In fact, some diseases live on because of evolutionary pressures (since they are caused by living organisms). Even if something is genetic, and we term it a disease, that does not then mean that this will even have an influence on our species' ability to reproduce.

what is it about depression that makes it so enduring? — Posty McPostface

Maybe a bit of a boring answer, or seemingly too obvious -- but my first thought is that whatever is causing depression must still be there in order for depression to endure, or the depression simply hasn't been healed.

I often analogize depression to broken bones -- because broken bones are painful, they take a long time to heal, they need to be set right in order for them to heal right, and you can live with a broken bone that has healed wrong. Unfortunately we don't know as much about the mind as we do about bones, so the process to healing isn't as straightforward. So just imagine living in a world without knowledge of bones, and how having a broken one would pretty much heal in wrong ways all the time -- you'd still be in pain then, and you could deal with the pain in the sense that you'll wake up the next day, but you'll live with pain the rest of your life until it is healed correctly.

I think that's why depression is so enduring. Because we may be able to recognize it, identify it, talk about it -- but we do not have the same kind of knowledge of minds as we do of bones.

For starters, how did our ancestors deal with depression? I mean, all the way back to homo erectus? Did they all die off, and if not, why hasn't natural selection dealt with depression in evolutionary terms of survival of the fittest genes? And, if depression is hereditary, then is the reason why it has not 'died off' through natural selection due to the fact that it is so widespread and common amongst folk? — Posty McPostface

Depression, like any genetic condition, continues to exist because those who have it are able to reproduce. I would suspect that the more difficult the environment, the more difficult the depressed had it historically, but as long they were able to reproduce, then you'd expect it to persist. Evolution makes creatures better fit for survival, but it doesn't create supermen. I have a bunch of cracked teeth (all patched up though) and wish God had given me a better grille. Maybe in ancient times I'd have died young for having to gum my food. You'd have thought by now evolution would have given us all amazing smiles.

Second, what is it about depression that makes it so enduring? Why does it persist for many years? You would think that it would go away; but, in my case, it's always in the backdrop somewhere in every activity or doing of the mind. — Posty McPostface

Why would it go away from time to time? Some conditions do, but many conditions don't. Someone may get an occasional flare up of rheumatoid arthritis, but you aren't autistic just sometimes.

I don't think anyone would be aware of what they are coping with in depression. It's just a state of mind that doesn't bode any utility to living life. — Posty McPostface

Agreed.

His analysis is derived from fear. Fear of what is the pertaining question... — Posty McPostface

Perhaps that's so. Much of what we think and do seems to be based on fear. Sometimes it seems to be nameless dread or existential angst, so not possible to establish what the fear is fear of.

I think @Jake's contention that we cannot think ourselves out of our situations is right, or at least half-right. I think we must see our way out of our situations or at least into coping with them. And of course seeing will require much prior thinking, even if the seeing itself goes beyond mere analysis. But seeing also requires physical activity and well-being, even if it goes beyond mere health and activity. The way out of depression is to cultivate a balanced vision I would say.

If this thread is just talk for the sake of talk, ok, no problem, but let's face that, admit it, and accept it. — Jake

I think what you are failing to see is that there is no such thing as "talk just for the sake of talk"; all talk has consequences.

I think that's why depression is so enduring. Because we may be able to recognize it, identify it, talk about it -- but we do not have the same kind of knowledge of minds as we do of bones. — Moliere

Seems about right to assert this. Is it that the mind is so complex that depression is hard to treat, still?

So, what you're saying was that depression was not severe enough an impediment in the past to cause individuals to not be able to reproduce? How about clinical depression or major depressive disorder, are those conditions also not severe enough to merit the same situations of not being disabled enough to reproduce?

I think Jake's contention that we cannot think ourselves out of our situations is right, or at least half-right. I think we must see our way out of our situations or at least into coping with them. And of course seeing will require much prior thinking, even if the seeing itself goes beyond mere analysis. But seeing also requires physical activity and well-being, even if it goes beyond mere health and activity. The way out of depression is to cultivate a balanced vision I would say. — Janus

I disagree with @Jake due to the fact that these simple and elegant behavioral tactics or strategies are not able to be realized in full by the depressive. It's too much to ask a depressive to get out and start doing fitness routines or eat more healthy.

I honestly don't know.

It could be complexity. It could just be cultural interest in curing bodily impairments (vision being one of the primary metaphors of western philosophy). It could be pure happenstance; we just came across the right sorts of things for bone beforehand.. And it could be that the mind is incurable in the same way that bones are; After all -- it is an analogy.

I've begun to play with the idea that the mind is actually totally different from the body ala Descartes (though my background precludes such thoughts), and so would not be subject to treatment in the medical sense that we are used to. Perhaps it just isn't an object that can be made to work in the manner that most of us would like, whereas a bone, for most of us, can be made to work in the manner most of us would like. (though, i will note here, that for me thinking of depression in the same manner as a broken bone has helped a lot). I guess that's why I said in one of your other threads about depression that you really just have to experiment with anything -- or at least that's what I did -- to finally find what works for you. While the description seems to be similar enough across time, or you can at least see a thread, the cure seems to vary incredibly.

If you're ready to just not feel like that then just be ready to change things you haven't thought of changing before. This is semi-scientific in the sense that you do record what does what so you can remember and see what's happening. And if it just ain't working then you try something else. Rinse and repeat

I guess that's why I said in one of your other threads about depression that you really just have to experiment with anything -- or at least that's what I did -- to finally find what works for you. While the description seems to be similar enough across time, or you can at least see a thread, the cure seems to vary incredibly. — Moliere

This is true. I suppose that depression does manifest itself in different forms and such. I just think that depression meds are useful in general for depression, and has clinical efficacy for clinical depression. This assumes that depression is endogenous and prone to being able to be dealt with in terms of medication.

Other times, depression can be remedied by external factors like a change in life circumstances or such. It would be nice to know beforehand what change led to the improvement in symptoms, but, more often than not, it's post hoc that we know what was the cause of improvement.

I should say that I think medication is great. That's what works for me. Though there is variability, the common prescriptions work great -- I started with the basic exercise, diet, sleep, etc., and eventually I landed in a place where that was not enough. But medication got me out of the deepest slump and gave me the opportunity to work through what I needed to. It's not over yet for me, but it's also much better than it has been.

For myself I suspect that what @Hanover stated earlier will always be true. Some illnesses are curable, and others are not -- but manageable. Like Diabetes. I suspect my depression is like that, though you never know -- maybe you will come across something. It's just something I've come to terms with --- that possibility. And even if that's the case then I know -- at least now -- I can live with it.

But for you? Hard to say. All my conversations about depression have lead me to believe that while there are similar terms to describe the symptoms the experiences with depression are just so unique, and our knowledge is so limited, that we aren't really able to give a definitive answer to what helps. So it's best to listen to everything, and then experiment in the method I said before.

There may be people who suffer depression on account of intractable neurological conditions, who would find it simply impossible to eat well or become physically active; I don't know.

On the other hand if a depressed person tells herself that improving diet and exercise habits is too difficult and/or couldn't possibly help, and so on, then that self-diagnosis would likely be self-fulfilling, I would think.

I should say that I think medication is great. That's what works for me. Though there is variability, the common prescriptions work great -- I started with the basic exercise, diet, sleep, etc., and eventually I landed in a place where that was not enough. But medication got me out of the deepest slump and gave me the opportunity to work through what I needed to. It's not over yet for me, but it's also much better than it has been. — Moliere

Would you say that depression goes away, or just one has to learn to cope with it? I mean, the mental filter that gets distorted when depressed is constantly being distorted by depression. So, I am wondering how does coping work?

Usually, when one goes to any professional doctor or psychiatrist, it is recommended to first try talk therapy, and then proceed with medications. More often than not, doctors neglect to mention this, and the barrage of medications to take ensues. Fortunately, I found a doctor that is willing to treat my depression and recommended that I go to some psychotherapy meetings.