At 70, my future is a lot shorter than my past. I'm fine with that. Ten more years would be about right--twenty, too long. But I could be dead this afternoon. There aren't any big exciting events on my schedule, so that would be alright too. — Bitter Crank

Well, I hope it will be a while longer, just so that you can post here and share the wealth in wisdom and knowledge.

I do not see a techno-utopia in our future, but certainly more machines and AI. Some people expect life-altering, paradigm-redefining technology. I do not, because I expect that little new technology will be developed first and foremost for the benefit of humankind as a whole. IF retinal replacements, enhanced memory and thinking implants, or body replacements made to order turn out to be practical, they will be standard fare for only a small elite. — Bitter Crank

While this is true, there's one exceptional person out there that has already taken the steps to 'democratize' technological progress through making it open source and available to all. He's Elon Musk. He's a really smart guy and I think he will take the world in a completely new direction with his many startups.

Hmm. Maybe the question was ill framed or deserves a clear and concise 'another topic.

I'm not sure if anyone noticed, but, is it possible for the future to have a meaning regardless of (time) age?

Haha, I guess. Though curiosity without diligent determination leaves you laying in bed all day long entertaining every though that comes up. There's a whole bunch of other stuff you can add into the recipe; but, those two stand out the most.

Thanks for the answer but, i wasn't talking about IQ, my question was if someone has a different viewpoint of reality can be considered as superior intelligence, such as a guy who always is curious and tries to find the absolute truth of the cosmos, to a "high IQ" above 140, who drags about it but doesn't do anything. — jaValle

Well, the quantifier for intelligence is usually said person's IQ level. But, to answer your question, (and this is my opinion), there's really no substitute for determination, and an abundance of curiosity about the world.

Depression also goes by another name, which I was wondering what some of you think about. Namely, 'learned-helplessness'. There's also a less stigmatizing name called, 'failure to adapt'.

What do you think about these names? Do they contribute to understanding depression?

There's a funny thing about intelligence. It seems that too much of it tends to land you in a twilight zone of various issues. Many people with high IQ scores find themselves bewildered in the world occupied by other people with vastly lower IQ's. I've followed some high IQ societies and the most prominent feature of people with IQ's above 140 (genius level) is a sense of alienation from the rest of society. It seems that up to a certain point having IQ is a benefit and then quickly becomes a hindrance.

Anyway, there's also a great sense of infatuation in regards to intelligence. Again, based on following some high IQ society letters and posts, there's a great sense of pride in having a high IQ as if some people with extraordinary IQ's are immune to fallacies just based solely on the fact that they have a superior intelligence quotient. Many go on to build theories about the world, cosmos, universe with that knowledge about themselves.

But, in regards to your point, I don't think IQ can be effectively measured just based on a conversation and should not be a basis of discriminating people.

Going off on a tangent again, I think IQ is going to become redundant in the near future. As sci-fi as this sounds computers are soon going to be orders of magnitude beyond human ability.

The principles that are required to solve each are simple. But most people don't put in the effort (both intellectual and physical) required to get through with them OR they're not willing to go through the physical and emotional pain necessary to solve them - why don't they? There can be multiple reasons, but all return to a lack of self-esteem and a fear of pain/suffering. — Agustino

That's silly. Many people struggle with depression and can't come out of that state due to other reasons than 'lack of effort' or 'lack of willpower'.

I tend to think depression as a subconscious defense mechanism against the world. It seems to me that depression entails a certain belief system about the world that one resides in. For example:

I am powerless.
I feel lousy.
I can't change the way I am.
Desires make me unhappy because I can't realize them.

These are all belief's about oneself and the world. Simply saying that none of them are true is just rubbish because one (a depressed individual) already supposes them valid on face value.

Even a hardline Humean would not go so far; reason is the slave of passion, but the slave can still help the master. If one is unhappy that there is no sugar for the coffee, reason can usefully direct one to the grocer rather than the iron-monger for the remedy. The curiosity of depression is that it is in some way an anti-passion; it does not seem to motivate very well. — unenlightened

I would argue that depression is so hard to treat because we are in some sense the slave to our passions. How else would you explain the difficulty in treating depression?

If a depression is caused by an irregular arrangement of neurotransmitters, then trying to figure out the cognitive cause is a waste of time. — Bitter Crank

The thing is that not everyone responds to medication, or even if they do respond the efficacy isn't great enough. The same however doesn't seem to apply to talk therapy, which is more work but tends to get the job done more effectively and persistently.

I used to get suicidal thoughts almost everyday. My life is very depressing (I've even been diagnosed with schizophrenia). — Purple Pond

In the same boat. It's double the struggle because negative symptoms are rarely effectively treated while the positive ones are at bay. Amphetamines are thought to be good additions to A/AP's if you can find a willing and able doctor. They don't exacerbate the condition; but, supposedly help treat the negative symptoms while leaving the positive's untouched.

Personally, I have a hobby of understanding SZ and how to live with it.

But how does that actually support your claim that the rational/emotional divide "is factually not true"? So, therapy searches for a root cause, it tries to figure out what emotions are being held back. How do those probing actions indicate that the rational/emotional divide is false? — Noble Dust

I posted something a while ago about Hume vs. CBT over at the old philosophy forum (now defunct). My argument was basically, that if reason or rationality is instrumental to the passions, then how is it that that very same reason or rationality cause backward causation and intendedly or unintendedly make a person less depressed as per the placebo effect or CBT (rational therapy) etc.

Here's a thread a while ago about how I view depression if people are finding it hard to understand.

https://thephilosophyforum.com/discussion/864/embracing-depression-/p1

It is what it is, and I think that we should call it what it is, once we know what it is, contrary to Question's approach that we should treat depression as this or that based on how fruitful it will or won't be to do so, regardless of the truth of the matter. — Sapientia

No, it's not a matter of passing judgment; but, being pragmatic about depression. If we treat it only as a mood, as most people do, then we're left with the happy pills. If we treated as a resultant deep emotion about the world, then we are forced to begin an investigation into how that deep emotion came to rise about. That's what I guess I'm trying to say.

It is not a mood disorder, but the mood itself is a result of a number of factors and they appear to be factors you may just be attempting to justify. You have the audacity to say [t]here's nothing emotional about synthetic a priori judgments, like "I am depressed" and yet seemingly avoid discussions pertaining to the decision-making, cognitive functioning, the phenomenological based on identity and the ethical application necessary to establish a clear mindset that empowers and thus alleviates the feelings you discuss. — TimeLine

Well, all of what you have said, I presume, appeals to reason and not emotion. Sure, there's emotional reasoning; but, depression tends to be treated most effectively through reason and not pills that emulate an emotion.

You are perpetuating a rational/emotional divide that I disagree with. I'm neither a cognitivist on the one hand nor a Humean on the other. Reason and emotion intertwine in our judgment. That's the sort of creature we are. Reason can't float free of its premisses. — mcdoodle

That is factually not true. Most therapy is done through rational means, such as searching for the root cause or trying to figure out what emotions are being held back consciously or unconsciously. Furthermore, there's the fact that two plus two will always equal four in base ten regardless of how we feel about that formal judgment.

Rationality is built on premisses that include emotional ones. — mcdoodle

There's nothing emotional about synthetic a priori judgments, like "I am depressed".

I don't understand, part of the point of the approach that depression is a pervasive mood is to enable a person to be empowered in relation to it. Moods are not intractable. The philosophy of emotions that I enjoy doesn't make a rational/emotional split in the way youre describing. Rationality is built on premisses that include emotional ones. And emotions are themselves often judgments, and, some would argue, perceptions. If we're to understand the world of our feelings, we need to devote our rationality and our emotional intelligence to the job. — mcdoodle

Returning to this rather important point, I think that the truism in philosophy about rationality being the handmaiden of the passions is worth bringing up. If one subscribes to this notion, then rationality is only something instrumental to the passions and can't help in treating such emotions. That would be untrue based on experience and empirical results from rational behavioral therapies such as CBT, REBT, etc.

I answered that in your last thread: through reflection. — Noblosh

Reflection without a guide can lead to deep moods that are characteristic of major depression. One does not feel that depression is a state of mind; but, rather something real and concrete about how one ought feel about the world.

I don't know who fooled you into taking meds for depression but you're the one complaining it doesn't help, so why do it? — Noblosh

In part, because I am a social animal, and also believe that depression is something that is in part rooted in a biological imbalance-but, I also realized that depression is largely a product of emotional reasoning (to borrow the terms from CBT) and also a result of a deep mood, that has arisen from melancholy and mental time traveling (rumination, not reflection).

I can't help but notice almost everyone aligning in the same group, which believes that depression is a mood. That's like the post hoc ergo propter hoc fallacy.

Let's assume for a moment that yes, depression is a mood, then what? Cheer up? Take your meds, which for the matter you'll most likely be dependent on for the rest of your life if you keep on treating depression as a mood.

Anyway, how do you even treat a mood? Sure, I might go to the circus and laugh and then come home; but, doesn't that make me dependent on going to the circus to feel better.

My point, in part, is pointing out that depression has become a dependency disorder. People feel powerless, then helpless, and go and see a psychiatrist, which actually is not as rational as one may think such a thing would be to do. This is because psychiatry adopted the notion that depression is 'mood-disorder' and to treat this mood disorder one ought to take the happy pills.

I'm not sure if I should continue. Anyone see this side of the 'condition'? To call it a disorder would only exacerbate the disorder, if not already by a wide margin.

There is a body of work by Matthew Ratcliffe, written very recently, about depression as deep mood. He reaches back to Heidegger, and the notion that mood, in a profound sense, just is how we feel about the world. It can feel all-permeating, insinuating itself into perception, belief and the thinkable. I heartily recommend his work as a starting point. In my studies I've been exploring emotion and mood, I'm interested in how un-emotional the language of analytic philosophy is, and whether emotion reaches into the cognitive. — mcdoodle

I would like to quickly assert that I do not think treating depression as a pervasive mood, is fruitful, regardless of whether it is true or not. This is because depression, whether it is rational (a set of beliefs about the world) or emotional (a mood that has arisen, somehow), can only be treated rationally.

So, what are these 'set of beliefs' about the world? One of them is powerlessness. Resulting from that powerlessness comes along helplessness. So, one then feels powerless over them being helpless, and then follow a whole range of other emotions.

You rather need to see a medical professional about it. — Terrapin Station

Well, I think we need to get past this truism. Namely, that a medical professional can magically treat the depression him or herself and thus the depression stops. While my depression can or has been decreased in magnitude it still persists.

On suicidal thoughts. "Don't have them." — Benkei

:(

The issue is that we just have too many amoral people or rather too many people who just don't care enough, or motivated by the wrong ethical code. People just don't care about other people, enough to do anything about such a situation.



It's something to worth consider, are these people just trying to keep up with the Johnses or are they also living beyond their means? I don't really know many people that are satisfied with what they have.

But don't kill the monster, it's your best friend. — unenlightened

It's an oppressive and overbearing friend, I can add.

Are people functioning more poorly now (now = the present and back... 50 years) than they functioned before? And if so, why?

Are economics the problem--Too many people pursuing too few opportunities? — Bitter Crank

I think so, inequality has been rising since the 70's or 80's, and such, people are working late into their lives and automation is taking away jobs contrary to what some people say. Social safety nets are on the chopping block. Sure, some conservative will tell you that you can now afford a great OLED TV nowadays and enjoy some of the lowest food costs; but, that is irrelevant when you can't climb the social ladder. Trickle down has yet to work for the matter.

You've seen a psychiatrist about depression? Personally, I'd consider persistent suicidal thinking (even without planning) a serious symptom if it were myself. I know that many people have their doubts about anti depressant medication -- as well they should, because any given Rx might not work for any given individual. Just because Zoloft doesn't help, doesn't mean Effexor won't, and just because neither Zoloft and Effexor didn't work, doesn't mean that Seroquel or Cymbalta won't. — Bitter Crank

Yes, I do see a county psych, which seems to be the best of all psychs one can pick as there's no incentive to overmedicate an individual. I agree that it has helped. I do not think new medication is the thing for me. At the moment Zoloft has been working well and like the equanimity that it causes in me. I see to feel happier on it rather than not. I decided that it's best to give no meds a try and will see if I can taper off the Zoloft if possible. I don't have much trust in psych meds for the matter. I used to be a different person before I was put on some SSRI's and different meds. I think, amicable would be a good word to describe how I was. Nowadays, the numbness from the Zyprexa and Zoloft is just too much. I really want to see how I feel off of meds. It's been so long and the desire to feel again is really appealing.

Major depression is a bigger deal than minor depression, especially if minor depression is rooted in practical solvable problems. CBT alone might work for minor depression; it seems to me that major depression needs more. — Bitter Crank

The depression comes in waves. The most profound aspect that bothers me is a lack of desire or will to do things in my best interest. It's a rather Buddhist type of depression if you care for a laugh, just without the compassion part. I'll be frank, I have a more sinister condition (hate the use of 'disorder') that has negative symptoms that are very hard to target and deal with. I've tried amphetamines in the past, and hence the source of my drug habit (never abused, smoked, plugged, snorted, or IV'd). Rather the habit was fostered as a psychological dependence in terms of using the go pills to get motivated and working. It has worked in the past; but, those Schedule I or II drugs are scheduled for a reason. Ehh, to be honest, I don't think I would have gotten into a UC school if it weren't for Adderall, it's just that potent of a drug. Military physicians were told to give soldiers during WWII amphetamines because it didn't cause them to perform any better; but, believe that they were performing better and be more willing to pull the trigger when needed. Stalin supposedly resorted to alcohol to treat general malaise.

I've put up with depression for a long time -- 30 years. Some of the drugs we tried did not help much. There were many years where I just wasn't functioning well. For the last 7 years I've felt pretty good, and part of that was a change in life circumstances. Sometimes those can be engineered, and sometimes not. — Bitter Crank

I've whined and complained in the past here and over at the old PF about living with mummy, working, etc. I've kind of passed that hump and gotten used to being company to a person that truly loves you. It was growing pains. I have doodled with the idea of changing environments and going to some European country; but, working as a janitor or such doesn't appeal me since I still have the door open to go back to UC and complete that degree. It's just that I don't see how I'll get the job done (and I know it needs to be done) if I keep on feeling this way while the clock is ticking mercilessly away. A rather pathetic situation to be in not beliving in yourself. Low self-esteem factors in; but, I'm not a fan of the esteem movement. People have had it harder and gotten through worse and came out on top despite such circumstances. I just suffer from a lack of... whatever - to want to get the job done. Getting off the numbing pills and stuff seem to me to be the right direction forward. I mean, if ya can't feel anything then you're kinda incapacitated by default.

I read through most of what you wrote and think there is some solid thinking behind the idea of treating some rampant emotions as akin to an involuntary allergic response seen in people with overactive immune systems. However, I don't see what can be done non-pharmaceutically for the majority of cases that are over empathetic or such. It seems to be a problem only pharmaceutical drugs can address. I'll meditate over the whole theory some more and see what I can come up with.

Wow, thank you, kind Sir, for providing so much information on the topic. I'll give it a read and post whatever questions I have about it.

I have studied CBT in the past. I wonder how much in parallel I may find in your method.

Do you find the idea of suicide somewhat attractive? — Bitter Crank

Yes, and that is the problem. I am not sure if suicide can be addressed without the big elephant in the room that is depression.

I thought that I'd get used to it or just learn to cope with persistent depression. I also know the range of depression, where one just doesn't even want to get out of the bed and the other even worse where one tries to do something about it; but, fails and ends up with the same result of being in square one.

How large a dose are you taking? Some people have had significant side effects from NSAIDs involving blood pressure, kidney function, heart function, digestive tract irritation, and so on. The side effects seem to be dose-related--the higher the dose, the more likely the side effects. — Bitter Crank

I take 250 mg of Aleve a day. Sometimes two in the morning. I haven't noticed anything terrible in terms of side effects.

Hope brighter thoughts occur to you soon. — Bitter Crank

Hope so too, just that the depression always seems to loom there besides the other stuff.

If no, then there is another solution I can offer, but will wait for the answer before giving more details on that one. — Samuel Lacrampe

My stomach seems to be fine. Let me know what else I can learn.

Well, now that I think about, when one feels anything it is about something, something that they aren't at the moment. I guess nothingness fits in there somewhere.

However, having a lack of desire to live or just lack of desire, in general, seems distinct here. Am I getting you right?

I don't quite get the logic; but, I understand what you are saying.

Fascinating. I take Aleve semi-daily. I might switch to Tylenol.

Don't take this as offensive; but, isn't feeling nothingness a good thing? I would rather feel nothingness rather than angst, anxiety, and anger over incompetence with dealing with depression.

I've read some stuff about pain killers as helping ease the pain; but, someone on the internet rightfully so said that it is better to feel the pain than dampen it with a pain reliever. Kind of like addressing the issue now rather than until the effects of the drug become negligible due to tolerance and such. But... some people might just have too many pain receptors? Who knows?

It would be hard to make a delinearization between whether it is emotional or rational. I guess, going from some cognitive/biological point of view I would have to wholeheartedly say that it is emotional. Once it became emotional, how one can cope with it can then be treated by rational thoughts. One can then accept it or fight with it, depending on their personality and such.

Rational would be like the philosopher Satre who was convinced that life is meaningless. — Samuel Lacrampe

I find it hard to just go on with such a proposal and say that because one assumes that life is meaningless, including the statement itself, that that would automatically make you depressed or rather professing a depressed attitude.

If emotional, then I may be able to provide a few solutions based on experience with my own depressions, which I have for the most part defeated. — Samuel Lacrampe

Ok, let's assume that it is emotional. How have you tackled this beast?

Oh, dear. I can't imagine how you can fight with nothingness. Become one with it?

I still can't see the dichotomy yet ssu, who's the one portraying ignorance and the anti-science establishment, the teachers or Matthew McConaughey?

Haha, my experience was near identical. I forget how old I was, but when I saw the movie I was glued to the screen. It was love at first sight.