We want something to obtain in the world. The will can be said to represent that desire. The will can be said to be powerless because it cannot actually influence the world. It has no direct force. So, for example, I may want someone to love me, but no level of desire will actually make that desire obtain in the actual world. My willing of someone's love has no direct power over the actual state of affairs of their desire.

So, in effect, no matter how hard we try, we are ultimately powerless. We may gain the ability to exercise our will in some circumstances, but this is not given. At any moment, the universe can block our desire from obtaining, despite our best efforts. And there is nothing we can do about it.

There is a body of work by Matthew Ratcliffe, written very recently, about depression as deep mood. He reaches back to Heidegger, and the notion that mood, in a profound sense, just is how we feel about the world. It can feel all-permeating, insinuating itself into perception, belief and the thinkable. I heartily recommend his work as a starting point. In my studies I've been exploring emotion and mood, I'm interested in how un-emotional the language of analytic philosophy is, and whether emotion reaches into the cognitive.

There is a body of work by Matthew Ratcliffe, written very recently, about depression as deep mood. He reaches back to Heidegger, and the notion that mood, in a profound sense, just is how we feel about the world. It can feel all-permeating, insinuating itself into perception, belief and the thinkable. I heartily recommend his work as a starting point. In my studies I've been exploring emotion and mood, I'm interested in how un-emotional the language of analytic philosophy is, and whether emotion reaches into the cognitive. — mcdoodle

I would like to quickly assert that I do not think treating depression as a pervasive mood, is fruitful, regardless of whether it is true or not. This is because depression, whether it is rational (a set of beliefs about the world) or emotional (a mood that has arisen, somehow), can only be treated rationally.

So, what are these 'set of beliefs' about the world? One of them is powerlessness. Resulting from that powerlessness comes along helplessness. So, one then feels powerless over them being helpless, and then follow a whole range of other emotions.

I don't understand, part of the point of the approach that depression is a pervasive mood is to enable a person to be empowered in relation to it. Moods are not intractable. The philosophy of emotions that I enjoy doesn't make a rational/emotional split in the way youre describing. Rationality is built on premisses that include emotional ones. And emotions are themselves often judgments, and, some would argue, perceptions. If we're to understand the world of our feelings, we need to devote our rationality and our emotional intelligence to the job.

You need to come to terms with your monster, your avatar, swimming around in its amniotic lake.

Personally I believe that depression, so long as it is not a biological issue like a chemical imbalance or whatever, stems from an extreme disappointment or disillusionment with the world. Only optimists get depressed. But then again I think we all have a bit of optimism in our character that cannot be purged.

I can't help but see depression (melancholia as it used to be called) as an affective malady. Affective, meaning that it is rooted in a perceptual or cognitive maladjustment. But this is an existential matter - existential, meaning 'pertaining to existence', rather than a medical issue per se. There is strong social pressure to 'medicalise' depression, in other words, to declare it something medical or hormonal or chemical, because of the generally physicalist attitude of current culture. After all if it's physical, then it's something the natural sciences can treat. Whereas if it's existential then it might really be a philosophical problem, and the medical profession can't necessarily help with that (or it will dismiss the required philosophical analysis as 'navel gazing' or as a 'chimera of the human mind' as many do on this forum. Although that is not to deny that there might be endogenous depression which is not amenable to cognitive analysis.)

I would have a look at Jules Evan's book and also his approach which combines elements of CBT (cognitive behavioural therapy) with elements of traditional stoic philosophy. It is like a program of philosophical therapy.

I'm also an advocate of the value of physical fitness as an antidote to depression. Enrolling in a course which makes strong physical demands and lifts your overall level of fitness has been shown to be effective against depression. I took up jogging in my twenties, and discovered I could actually run for 8 kilometers or so, at a fair clip (those days are long gone!) But the resulting endorphin rush, after a shower and a cool down, was amazingly effective at dissipating negative emotions.

The hindsight of living with, and nearly dying from, depression starting when i was 18 is much clearer than the mindset i had during it. That is probably to be expected. Not saying that i tap dance through every day, but the depression has been gone for a long time. I would say the depression had three main aspects. Firstly, just a big bundle of unexpressed, difficult, and powerful emotions. Something inside me wasn't going to let me do anything until i dealt with some of these emotions. Before which my general attitude towards such things was along the lines of "feelings are for kids and grandmothers".

This leads into the second aspect: unintentional self-sabotage. Not saying that i or anyone else is to blame for a state of depression. But, as Wayfarer suggests above, there is at least an aspect of depression that one may have unwittingly contributed to, and (more optimistically) something(s) one can do to lessen the intensity of the suffering. Negative thinking, bad nutrition, isolation, sleep disorders, chemical dependency, etc. are going to have an effect on someone. And it most likely won't be a pleasant one.

The third aspect is kind of the wildcard. It is even more mysterious and impenetrable than the first two, because there is nothing necessarily to be done or learned or changed or expressed. One could call it the Dark Night of the Soul, as the mystics did. The only thing to do with this aspect is to simply endure it, while working on the other aspects. Isn't there a saying about depression being a natural reaction to an insane world? But perhaps some period of depression is good for a person in the long run, assuming they survive it. Soul searching, growing deeper roots, and so forth. Who knows for sure? The mind is as mysterious as the moon, on whose dark side depression dwells.

It has been said that "if you are not depressed it's because you're not paying attention."

That's something of a political joke, but there is an element of truth in it. Some people focus so much on what is wrong with the world that they become very negative about everything. Dark clouds gather over their heads all the time.

But... if the world seems to be seriously out of kilter, it's difficult to overlook that and act as if it wasn't true.

Some people are always calm, up-beat, positive, cheerful, outgoing, etc. The 90 year old man from church who's 70 year-old son died a week ago is like that. He's probably been that way his whole life. Why? Don't know. It's probably not his personal achievement -- it's probably just the luck of the draw. My father was that way too, but it didn't rub off on me. Dad had as many reasons to be unhappy or depressed as anyone else had, but he wasn't. It's a gift, not a personal achievement.

Depression is a diagnosis -- meaning that it is a term for an illness, with which there is at least the desire for a cure and a set of symptoms which indicate that this description of the illness is true and this cure is what is needed to extirpate said illness.

One thing about depression, though, is that while its symptoms are well defined, it seems that the personal experiences of the afflicted have varying degrees of difference. Perhaps this is just mis-diagnosis in some cases, but I'd wager that the way we understand "depression", and our lack of understanding of mental workings and health, is also partly at work in the variation of experiences and cures with depression. It seems to me to be a bit of a catch-all term which works better than no term, but which is likely identifying a larger set of intermingling parts which aren't well understood.



I think you're kind of straying off the topic of depression in talking about impotence, or the im/potence of the will. Depression can have an effect on willpower, but this is something which is more particular and isn't really a meta-logical observation about depression or mental illness, and one can experience impotence without depression. It seems to me that one experiences impotence when they desire something which is outside of their ability or power to obtain. So, sure, depression can lead to feelings of impotence as it hinders one's ability to do even little things in life, but the two are still quite distinct.

Which topic is it you were wanting to talk about? Impotence or depression?

Specifically, when a philosopher point out that the will is powerless, what does he or she mean by that? — Question

There are a number of factors to consider and while epistemological, metaphysical and even ethical are important in considerations of the nature of mind, conceptual frameworks are often ambiguous and as such the primary problem is defining what depression actually is. I am of the opinion that depression has a link to a series of cognitive errors, that as we form our own subjective narrative, it conflicts with the epistemological narrative given to us to explain our social and environmental 'reality'. As children, we lack the cognitive capacity that coerces dependence on others, but as we mature and develop and start to form a sense of our own identity, what we have meaningfully framed as reality does not sit comfortably with us. We just don't know why at conscious level because in some ways we are 'new' to thinking independently.

We soon become afraid in a way from this existential reality; shit, that guy called my father who I (naturally) have a strong emotional attachment to is actually a bad person and I long believed I needed to live up to his expectations when he is actually an idiot, for instance. Most people in depression are caught between the two realities, not yet capable of forming this autonomous dialogue within themselves that objectively separates them from a mindless dependence on the meaning given by the external world. The powerlessness is really just being unable to raise to consciousness our own autonomous decision-making, of separating ourselves to engage and experience the external world and reconfigure our capacity to rationalise and develop meaning with reason and independently. What that means is that a depressed agent has not yet learnt how to think objectively; the idea of believing that you can detach yourself from infantile emotions that have caused you to latch irrationally to your father - despite the fact that he is a bad person - and that somehow the association of these emotions are permanent is an example of how we confuse ourselves with false judgements of intentional states.

The best way to achieve this autonomy, to separate oneself from infantile emotions and mature to rational emotions, to begin thinking objectively is through considerations of conscience, morality or empathy. To have a genuine, empathetic experience engages you into a dialogue that separate your immaturity and the experience of derealisation. This dialogue with ourselves toward the external world has not yet matured and the really unfortunate problem is that depressive people who experience this existential angst (feeling lost and confused) often fail to take care of themselves, whether it is with the people they choose to associate with, taking drugs or drinking excessively, unable to work or study etc. that they begin elongate the derealisation and never actually attempt to mature the process of accepting their autonomy.

This is mostly caused by the fear of dislodging from one's environment, as though there is a yearning to be yourself but a powerlessness caused by the fear of losing the people and identity you have formed around you. It is almost like you are trying to shut yourself down to cope and live with an environment you are not really happy with, but you cannot articulate that to yourself consciously.

It is why one becomes empowered when they begin to appreciate their autonomy and separate themselves from their own enslaved faculties and social environment. It is about taking responsibility and developing that independent thinking, to speak your own narrative by reasoning objectively. Which is why is actually correct, that the best course of action is to encourage a dialogue, to try and understand what inhabits your mind and perceptions and whether the meaning you hold of things - though most people may believe it to be true - is true to you. To not be afraid of loss because there is so much to gain the moment you actually begin to experience reality and form meaning as you want to.

The third aspect is kind of the wildcard. It is even more mysterious and impenetrable than the first two, because there is nothing necessarily to be done or learned or changed or expressed. — 0 thru 9

On the contrary, there certainly is something learned, changed and expressed and it is penetrable, it just takes some time developing that skill and we often delay the process because we become disillusioned by the emotional angst that we simply just want it to go away. I am glad that you have more clarity that has enabled you to avoid the depressive experiences that had almost killed you (well done, seriously, you should be proud of yourself) but one thing that I am afraid of is that some people learn to tolerate rather than confront the causal actuality of the depressive state, its reasons for being there in the first place, and that could mean that it is merely lying dormant and inevitably return in the future.

For instance, some people conform to their environment, give up and allow others to form their identity and decisions rather than doing so for themselves and though they are completely miserable, they feel secure and that is more to them than experiencing the negative sensations that depression can evoke. Indeed, while going through the depression one would need to continue fighting to survive the alluring need to shut down, neither to be controlled by the powerlessness that it permeates and instead focus on taking one step at a time, to cross each bridge when you get to it. It is so important to learn to take care of yourself and resist the harm and sabotage to our happiness that we inflict and this requires an objectivity, a way to rationalise what could harm you, confront what makes you unhappy, focus on a purpose and plan for the future. To do this one step at a time is by piecing one puzzle at a time, articulate a narrative of this 'mysterious and impenetrable' realm, to form a dialogue and communicate as you begin to improve the language of your own voice whether through writing or speaking or art and music.

Once you begin forming your own autonomous language and develop meaning of the external world according to your own interpretation, you begin to see objectively the causal roots for the initial depression and its relationship with your history, your present social and environmental conditions, and ultimately your future as you begin to experience reality rather than experience learned perceptions of a false reality. It is penetrable and you will forever remain empowered.

Depression is a diagnosis -- meaning that it is a term for an illness — Moliere

Why is this misconception so popular?
Depression is a mental disorder, not a medical condition.

Depression is a diagnosis -- meaning that it is a term for an illness, with which there is at least the desire for a cure and a set of symptoms which indicate that this description of the illness is true and this cure is what is needed to extirpate said illness. — Moliere

Compare:
Rabies is a diagnosis...
Possession by devils is a diagnosis...

It sounds a bit odd. Following the use/mention convention, you would be better to say that "depression" is a diagnosis - a diagnosis is a naming, not an illness (or even a disorder) - but personally I like the old-fashioned term here, that depression (not the name this time) is a 'complaint', because one can name the complaint without making unwarranted ontological assumptions one way or the other. Thus one can say that homosexuality is a complaint whenever someone complains about it, even if the current medical response is 'get used to it'. It used to be considered an illness to be treated, and so did possession by devils.

One does not see many threads on the philosophy of possession by devils these days, nor on the latest cures for homosexuality. And there is a change of language in the reporting of the latter - not 'I've got homosexuality', but 'I am homosexual.' And this is where, I see the op heading - towards a position where one no longer wishes to be 'cured' of being the person that one is, even if one happens to be a melancholic.

Patient: I keep thinking I'm Moses.
Doctor: Keep taking the tablets.

However, I don't think depression ever ceases to exist. — Question

For those who have depression you mean, or for everyone? Because not everyone has depression.

I can't help but notice almost everyone aligning in the same group, which believes that depression is a mood. That's like the post hoc ergo propter hoc fallacy.

Let's assume for a moment that yes, depression is a mood, then what? Cheer up? Take your meds, which for the matter you'll most likely be dependent on for the rest of your life if you keep on treating depression as a mood.

Anyway, how do you even treat a mood? Sure, I might go to the circus and laugh and then come home; but, doesn't that make me dependent on going to the circus to feel better.

My point, in part, is pointing out that depression has become a dependency disorder. People feel powerless, then helpless, and go and see a psychiatrist, which actually is not as rational as one may think such a thing would be to do. This is because psychiatry adopted the notion that depression is 'mood-disorder' and to treat this mood disorder one ought to take the happy pills.

I'm not sure if I should continue. Anyone see this side of the 'condition'? To call it a disorder would only exacerbate the disorder, if not already by a wide margin.

Anyway, how do you even treat a mood? — Question

I answered that in your last thread: through reflection.

I don't know who fooled you into taking meds for depression but you're the one complaining it doesn't help, so why do it?

To call it a disorder would only exacerbate the disorder, if not already by a wide margin. — Question

I don't see why. People calling me ill while I was depressed was instead what was exacerbating my disorder.

I answered that in your last thread: through reflection. — Noblosh

Reflection without a guide can lead to deep moods that are characteristic of major depression. One does not feel that depression is a state of mind; but, rather something real and concrete about how one ought feel about the world.

I don't know who fooled you into taking meds for depression but you're the one complaining it doesn't help, so why do it? — Noblosh

In part, because I am a social animal, and also believe that depression is something that is in part rooted in a biological imbalance-but, I also realized that depression is largely a product of emotional reasoning (to borrow the terms from CBT) and also a result of a deep mood, that has arisen from melancholy and mental time traveling (rumination, not reflection).

I don't understand, part of the point of the approach that depression is a pervasive mood is to enable a person to be empowered in relation to it. Moods are not intractable. The philosophy of emotions that I enjoy doesn't make a rational/emotional split in the way youre describing. Rationality is built on premisses that include emotional ones. And emotions are themselves often judgments, and, some would argue, perceptions. If we're to understand the world of our feelings, we need to devote our rationality and our emotional intelligence to the job. — mcdoodle

Returning to this rather important point, I think that the truism in philosophy about rationality being the handmaiden of the passions is worth bringing up. If one subscribes to this notion, then rationality is only something instrumental to the passions and can't help in treating such emotions. That would be untrue based on experience and empirical results from rational behavioral therapies such as CBT, REBT, etc.

Rationality is built on premisses that include emotional ones. — mcdoodle

There's nothing emotional about synthetic a priori judgments, like "I am depressed".

Some more random thoughts on this subject...
Calling it a "mood" seems like it is being shrugged off or taken too lightly. I don't get the impression that anyone here is not taking this subject seriously. Not quite sure how to define "depression", but of course it is a life or death issue, or at least can turn into one very quickly. Calling it a "disorder" is fine, though it seems to make it inevitable to see a doctor/take medications (which seems to be a package deal). But if someone is feeling trapped, they probably best seriously consider seeing a professional.

At least, one could have the experience and judge for themselves how helpful it was. I was on a few psych meds long ago. In my case, they didn't seem to be helpful and maybe causing new problems. So i wanted to get off the meds. Fair enough. But being a impulsive teenager at the time, i just went cold turkey and stopped taking everything instantly. For those unfamiliar, that is a very very dangerous thing to do. Luckily, no one was hurt by my reckless if well-intentioned action.

A large aspect of my particular depression was intertwined with a sleep disorder called delayed phase disorder (basically staying up all night, then crashing in the morning). Honestly don't know which came first, the depression or the sleep disorder. Either way, it was a feedback loop. So i tried melatonin as a sleep aid, and very soon the depressive symptoms waned. Now melatonin is a powerful synthetic brain hormone. So it should be taken seriously and carefully, even though it available in the USA over the counter. Serious research on this supplement and how it could interact with medications would be advised. But i just wanted to mention that it made my life bearable again, and eventually even enjoyable. Other things helped too, like eating fresh fruits and vegetables. This is only my experience. Your smilage may vary!

One does not feel that depression is a state of mind; but, rather something real and concrete about how one ought feel about the world. — Question

I see you've embraced your monster which was definitely not the point. I'm not arguing depression isn't real, I'm arguing depression isn't an absolute truth and that you're the one giving it that importance.
In the end, it's just a disorder one needs to solve to restore order.

My point, in part, is pointing out that depression has become a dependency disorder. — Question

Perhaps this dependency rests of your desire to maintain it? I knew a woman who had constant anxiety, her emotional malady always present despite years passing and I soon realised that despite all the advice given, she was unable to perceive what happiness actually was to her that her happiness almost became the anxiety. It is alluring to smoke cigarettes to alleviate feelings of stress, but the poison infiltrates your system to enable a false idea of dependence that a person actually begins to believe that they need to smoke despite the fact that it is actually because of the cigarettes that they prolonging the anxiety and killing themselves in the process. Her identity was in part formed by the anxiety she experienced that she created and unconsciously nurtured a life that enabled her to exercise this dependency. She had 'poisonous' people all around her.

It is not a mood disorder, but the mood itself is a result of a number of factors and they appear to be factors you may just be attempting to justify. You have the audacity to say [t]here's nothing emotional about synthetic a priori judgments, like "I am depressed" and yet seemingly avoid discussions pertaining to the decision-making, cognitive functioning, the phenomenological based on identity and the ethical application necessary to establish a clear mindset that empowers and thus alleviates the feelings you discuss.

Some people desire the depressive state because it enables them a justification to avoid responsibility for taking control of their own lives.

Perhaps ask yourself this; do you enjoy depression?

I know that a certain man was visiting her house when the husband and kids were at school (every Thursday), and they were having sex. Now, this guy looked like the type you see in porn shoots. Bald head, shaved legs, tall and muscular, wearing khaki shorts with black glasses (funnily enough similar to the type you see from police officers but I digress). — Question

You are perpetuating a rational/emotional divide that I disagree with. I'm neither a cognitivist on the one hand nor a Humean on the other. Reason and emotion intertwine in our judgment. That's the sort of creature we are. Reason can't float free of its premisses.

I'm afraid you're going to have to draw out the difference for me. I'm not understanding what you're saying I'm wrong about.

That is fair. I don't mean to say depression is just something we say, but I am trying to distance it from a notion of a distinct and well understood disorder at the same time. I'm doing a messy job of trying to understand depression as within a particular frame -- not to say that there isn't something real underpinning what we call depression, but only to say that whatever understanding of reality is there is not quite as definite as our understanding of, say, type 2 diabetes, given the diversity of experience with and cures for depression.


And, true, I hadn't thought of that transition from having to being. That certainly does tie in the transition that I saw as being a bit divergent from the opening. Though if that be the case, I'd note that I prefer the frame of "having" to "being" -- I don't know if that's good for everyone, but I know i prefer such a framing for myself.

I knew a woman who had constant anxiety, her emotional malady always present despite years passing and I soon realised that despite all the advice given, she was unable to perceive what happiness actually was to her that her happiness almost became the anxiety — TimeLine

I know quite a few people like that. Abraham Lincoln said 'folks are usually about as happy as they make their minds up to be' which I have always found a rather challenging saying. Another was something my father used to often quote from Thoreau, that 'most people live lives of quiet desperation' (which I'm sure he often felt.) But, that is what I always understood philosophy and spirituality to be the remedy for. There is not enough attention paid to that understanding in Western culture at all, it has been almost completely lost.

It is what it is, and I think that we should call it what it is, once we know what it is, contrary to Question's approach that we should treat depression as this or that based on how fruitful it will or won't be to do so, regardless of the truth of the matter.

I also think that the opening post only focuses on one particular form of, or aspect to, depression, rather than depression as a whole or other forms/aspects.

And I don't agree that depression never ceases to exist for those who have been depressed at one time or another. It's not something that you're stuck with for life, but something which can come and go. I reject this false dichotomy of either being depressed or coping with depression, and everyone else must be in denial. There do exist people who, for periods of time, are genuinely neither depressed, nor coping with depression, but for whom depression has no place in their life.

And I don't agree that depression never ceases to exist for those who have been depressed at one time or another. It's not something that you're stuck with for life, but something which can come and go. I reject this false dichotomy of either being depressed or coping with depression, and everyone else must be in denial. There do exist people who, for periods of time, are genuinely neither depressed, nor coping with depression, but for whom depression has no place in their life. — Sapientia

To play devil's advocate here, do you think that merely eliminating symptoms of depression, say by the taking of medicine, also eliminates depression at one's core?