So yeah, I took your advice this morning and drove around the neighborhood until I found a church that was open for business. The Church of The Lady From Guadaloupe was having a bake sale for South American refugees. Dia Del Pastel they called it, which means 'Day of the Cake'. My Spanish is not so bueno, but from what I could make out their motto was something like "Baking towards a better future, one cake at a time." I thought it was really sweet and selfless of them to work for the benefit of others in this way.

They were selling cupcakes under a big tent on the lawn in front of the church. It was very windy this morning and as I walked past the tent on the way to the church one of the tent support pegs popped out of the ground and the tent partially collapsed. The collapsed part of the tent caught the wind like a sail and knocked people, tables, and cakes tumbling to the grass. It was a mess. I watched a kid get up from the ground who had two chocolate cupcakes stuck to his head. They were positioned like horns and he looked kinda like Hellboy. I tried my best not to laugh at the whole spectical but it was impossible so I ran the rest of the way up to the church in order to not offend those covered in buttercream frosting and lemonade.

The church was magnificent with huge marble columns on the inside and countless giant stained glass windows. I took a seat and opened myself to whatever love and joy could find me. The sunlight, multi-colored beams of it cascading down from the colorful windows, danced around my head as I stared at a depiction of the Virgin Mary in one of the windows. I kept staring. After a while she seemed to move. At first I thought it was the light moving and reflecting through the glass, but it eventually became clear that she was moving. She turned slightly and looked directly at me. She then began to speak.

"Are you ready?"

More than a little freaked out I managed to meekly ask, "Ready for what?"

"Love."

"What kind of love?"

"There is only one kind of love you fool."

Not sure what to say, after an uncomfortable pause I finally said, "I guess I don't know."

"Come back when you know."

"Okay," I agreed.

I hesitantly got up, saying "Okay, see ya later," and walked out.

Isn't religious nihilism an oxymoron?

The problem with group identity is that it requires an other for the group identity to have meaning. In order to accept everyone you have to give up yourself, in other words, which is funny because we eventually give up our-selves anyway, in the end.

who taught you that becoming religious is merely an intellectual decision of fearful and dumb people. — Joe Mello

No one taught me that.

Read your last post again with an eye on what proof you have to support any of your regurgitations of other skeptics — Joe Mello

Do you know of any religion that relies on empirical validity and therefore doesn't require faith in any authority figures? I don't, but I'm no expert.

How do you know the stories you here about knowing and loving God, mine and so many others throughout human history, aren’t simply True? And if they are simply True, then I am an authority and you are not, but just someone who reads? — Joe Mello

You’re missing the point. The point is that the essential building blocks of religion are a unique metaphysics that require special access from someone like yourself, someone with hard won experience, and someone that can therefore be seen as an authority. The faith is in the authority, not in God. There are other signs of your religious inclinations, such as the way you stress the division between skeptics and believers, your rather extreme arrogance, and even the way you write with isolated sentences for dramatic effect. The curious thing is how openly blatant you are about all this, practically undressing yourself without any assistance from skeptics like myself. That makes it hard for me to believe that you’re for real, because you’re obviously not a complete idiot, and this is all just a simple game you’ve designed for amusement.

It has been amusing.

In your post above you say many things that are not motivated by your intelligence but by your desire to correct me. — Joe Mello

If you’re suggesting that the smart thing would be to ignore you that’s fair.

You make a distinction between “purely personal” and “personal whim” when there is none. — Joe Mello

It’s true that personal reasons may be whimsical, though you mentioned whimsy and “panties in a bunch”, did you not? It’s a challenge to be whimsical when one’s panties are in a bunch, I imagine. I think you know that, and that you deliberately misconstrued my distinction in order to avoid looking foolish. Well, the ship has sailed on that score and no amount of ever-so-tricky word games can steer it back to shore.

To ask me to explain what value is in a logical metaphysical principle, which scientists refuse to consider when it is a principle that gives to us an understanding for the unanswered question how the evolution on our planet happened, is to ask a stupid question, and a question I have answered numerous times already. — Joe Mello

Obviously, my ever-so-evasive friend, that was not the question that I presented for your consideration. I was clearly asking you to explain the value of the topic as a whole, assuming that you judge it to have any value at all, and that includes all posts and not just the so called metaphysical principal. Different discussions containing the same principle can vary in quality, I should not have to point out. Judging from your posts in this topic, you appear to consider the majority, if not the entirety, of posts in this topic to be low-quality. I assume that you assign high value to your own words and the esteemed metaphysical principle, but they comprise only a small portion of the topic.

But fear not, I withdraw the question.

the hearing of a Truth is worth the telling of it — Joe Mello

Capital T truth is based in faith (in authority), that’s why it requires capitalization, and that’s exactly why you appear so desperate to be regarded as some kind of authority.

This thread was getting a lot of traffic when it got moved to The Lounge. — Joe Mello

Irrelevant.

As I have already outlined, I get on a forum and start a very popular thread because I am a different poster than the groupthink regulars, and then a Moderator steps in to stop it for purely personal reasons. — Joe Mello

If identifying yourself as a non-group-thinker means that you're not afraid to say things that are not in sync with a group then I say good for you Joe! But honestly, rebelliousness for the sake of attention isn't all that impressive.

Regarding the move, as I've pointed out, it was done because of low quality. You've pointed out the low-quality posts in this topic more than anyone else. Were you lying about that and actually think that the responses to the OP were generally high-quality?

So, your judgment that this thread was at its end and I had a good run is bogus, ... — Joe Mello

I was trying to be nice and the niceness was genuine, well, somewhat genuine.

... and kinda self-serving if you have never been able to start a thread that lasted. — Joe Mello

I don't follow your reasoning here. No matter.

Some moderator arbitrarily moved this thread. There was no critical thinking involved, just panties in a bunch. — Joe Mello

A moment ago you said it was moved for personal reasons. Purely personal reasons are not arbitrary. They're reasons motivated by resentment or satisfaction rather than whimsy, but whatever the case, again I point out that you appear to judge the topic low-quality yourself, with the exception of your own posts, of course.

If you believe that this topic has value, can you explain its value?

I’ve read every moderator here. They are some weird dudes — Joe Mello

Oh yes. I knew that we could agree on something.

Less remorse makes a person darker?

Millennia of philosophy down the drain! — baker

Just the portion of it that maintains the status quo, and good riddance.

I was being euphemistic, sure, but don't take my word for it, or trust your ability to assess it objectively, I guess, just do a search for 'moved to the lounge' and you’ll soon see how the lounge is a small step from total topic annihilation. My hurt feelings do not change this fact, Joe. I'm no God and my feelings don't alter reality, nor do I require your love in order to be fulfilled. You might argue that my feelings about people and things do actually alter them to an extent and I would not disagree, in my perception of them. But the fact of the matter is that your good topic ended up in the lounge. Nothing can change that fact. Nothing can change the fact that the lounge is historically used as a dumping ground for topics that are low quality but not quite bad enough to delete entirely.

Try to look on the bright side, your topic was popular and attracted participation from a rather large swath of the membership. Your interests were taken seriously and closely examined. You've received both valuable criticism and lavish praise ("You’ve been brilliant" I've recently observed). Not too shabby for your first topic, no, not too shabby at all, so take some pride in what you've accomplished here, learn from your mistakes, if indeed any mistakes were made, and resolve to do better in the future. That's the best any of us can do, my friend.

The lounge is where stupid topics go to die. That’s no reflection on you, Joe. You’ve been brilliant. The topic has been trashed because of the lackluster responses to your spiritual insights.

EugeneW,

You make a lot of declarations about God when you admit that you don’t know anything about him and are confused.

The face you see in the mirror is your face not my face, or everyone’s face.

Go to school. — Joe Mello

You’re not even nice to your followers. If finding God turns you in to such a sourpuss I don’t see why anyone would want to find it.

I guess the Clowns in the Clown Car on this forum drove to my neighborhood and got out.

They threw a lot of pies at me but only hit themselves in the face.

What a mess … — Joe Mello

You are good at constructing feel-good narratives. I’ll give you that.

The role that science plays is useful, needless to say, and the roll that religion plays is also useful, however they are not useful in the same way, right? Do you agree?
— praxis

Yes. Science can't explain that the universe and all in it is there. It only says how stuff inside it behaves without knowing its nature or its origin. You can close all gaps, but that doesn't explain that of which you close the gap. — EugeneW

You say yes but then go on as though they play the same role, the role of explaining the universe. Do you believe that God’s only role and only power is explanatory?

Perhaps I should try to rephrase. Let’s say we have God’s role in one hand, and in the other hand we have the scientific method and its results (earth is a sphere that revolves around the sun, evolution, etc.). The role that science plays is useful, needless to say, and the roll that religion plays is also useful, however they are not useful in the same way, right? Do you agree?

Science replaced the role that God once played. — EugeneW

Now you’re back to claiming that science replaced God. Okay, whatever. Again, I’m rather surprised to hear from a believer that God plays such a minor role as to be replaced by some scientific discoveries.

You claimed that science replaced God, and now say that is not the case. If it’s not the case then what’s the problem?

god replaced by science. — EugeneW

Do you really believe that God is so easily replaced?

I’m not here for myself or for intellectual reasons.

Each one of us, no matter how much the thoughts off the top of our heads won’t shut up, has the spirit of God trying to give to us truth and love.

I’m here in service to that spirit. — Joe Mello

10 years at Sam Harris’ forum.

Insanity is repeating the same mistakes and expecting different results. — Narcotics Anonymous

You believe he knows what he is talking about based on his vague logorrhea, good luck with that —> fly meet flypaper. — 180 Proof

:lol: dart meet bullseye.

Our life becomes as great as our experiences, not as we think it to be. — Joe Mello

I imagine there’s no other way for you to think of it, that great experiences, such as those involving God, make a great person.

I believe that transcendent experiences dissolve dualities like greater/lesser and that religion requires them.

I sold tons of weed and smoked it for years. But 25 years ago I put it down out of respect for myself and everyone around me. — Joe Mello

In the OP you mention being in a monastery for five years 40 years ago. God didn’t teach you to respect yourself or those around you?

"You keep mentioning your credentials and vast mystical experience and in doing so it appears as though being seen as an authority is very important to you. May I ask why that is so important?"

praxis wrote this, and then feigned surprise when I "took it personally".

I think it would be a good practice around here to be a bit more honest with yourselves, and each other. — Joe Mello

You can’t even imagine not taking it personally and honestly answering the question?

you would probably judge me to be respectful for most of the time.
— Joe Mello

Let's check:

your trust in your thinking is scary.
— Joe Mello

Your confidence in yourself must be very popular with everyone but the ladies.
— Joe Mello

go be a fool someplace else.
— Joe Mello

You simply do not have the philosophical clarity to think profoundly and without personal prejudices in the third degree of abstraction.
— Joe Mello

if you're so sure of your thinking you wouldn't get rattled and emotional when it gets upended.
— Joe Mello

I asked you to ponder the principle, not hold my hand and skip away with me.
— Joe Mello

Don't accuse me of not being clear because you fell into a fog.
— Joe Mello

You're free again to walk away from any argument you don't understand in the same pair of shoes you have probably been wearing since you were a teenager.

Bye bye, then.
— Joe Mello

Learn to read … and to proofread.
— Joe Mello

that's just stupid.
— Joe Mello

You are lazy thinkers and lazy human beings.
— Joe Mello

a person who is so filled with pride and self-love
— Joe Mello

Your posts are riddled with emotion and nonsense.

I feel nothing when I read them, for they are not inspiring or profound, just the thoughts bouncing off the top of your head.
— Joe Mello

why don’t you go to the lounge.
— Joe Mello

just a superficial jerk.
— Joe Mello — T Clark

I hope Joe isn’t this rude to God.

Wow, you took that personally. Sorry.

praxis, how many times have you told others that God doesn't exist? — Joe Mello

I don't think that I've ever told anyone that. I don't think it's provable.

Seems a tad polarizing.

Joshs, do you know the difference between an evangelical conservative Christian and a scholastically trained theologian and philosopher?

It’s quite vast. — Joe Mello

You keep mentioning your credentials and vast mystical experience and in doing so it appears as though being seen as an authority is very important to you. May I ask why that is so important?

Groupthink is the death of every debate, not an antagonist. — Joe Mello

Not true, unless you’re intimidated by groups, which you don’t seem to be.

Interesting that you consider yourself an antagonist. Is God cool with that?

I called you neither a liar, nor delusional. And I am not an atheist. Completely wrong on all accounts. — emancipate

Uh-oh, you don’t fit in his safe little box.

Are those things independent of each other or relying on each other? — Joe Mello

Interdependent means dependent upon one another: mutually dependent.

Take your relationship with God for instance, God cannot be loved by you without you, and you cannot love God without God. You're codependent, but in a good way, I hope.

You are lazy thinkers and lazy human beings. I sacrificed years to come to a knowledge and love of God. And you expect to intellectually receive God on a plate. — Joe Mello

This confirms that all you have to offer is your love story with God, insults, and nothing of intellectual substance.

I read a similar characterization on Breitbart News this morning.
— praxis

Really? That we should unionize, remove trade tariffs and "tax the fuck" out the rich. My, Breitbart has changed since I last read it. — Isaac

Well, no, more specifically I was referring to similarities between Marcusean and Orwellian.

Life is greater than the elements, and thought is greater than life, and love is greater than thought, and God is greater than us. — Joe Mello

It’s an interesting progression, going from the elements to life, then to thought, to love, and finally to God. The last step seems unnecessary. In any case, all these things are interdependent so it is nonsensical to say that one is greater than the other. Thought can’t exist without elements, love can’t exist without thought, God can’t exist without elements and thought, etc.

Apparently communing with God makes a person mysterious and arrogant. A story as old as time.

Oh, I see, God is not physical. Stupid stupid stupid me. I suppose that if God isn’t physical then nothing God does is finite. Doesn’t that meaning that it is impossible to do anything, since nothing God does can have a beginning or end?

the physical universe is made up of only finite things. Nothing else. — Joe Mello

Then if God exists, God is a finite thing. That’s rather disappointing. :sad:

It's just my nature to try to understand, or make some sense of, behavior that, in my mind, should be intrinsic in otherwise "normal" people but which isn't. Therein lies the vagaries of human nature I suppose. I chock a lot of thing up to "human nature" but I guess because it personal this time that I'm having difficulty. — Tex

Another stoicism is that we can’t control other people, or anything really, outside of ourselves, so we’re bound to be disappointed from time to time by people and things beyond our control, and it’s pointless to ruminate over things that are out of our control. We can learn whatever there is to learn and move on.

I think he's arguing for a kind of immersion therapy. A little QAnon here, a little Mein Kampf there, until you become desensitized and nonreactive.
— praxis

That was more charity than I needed. Thanks. — frank

I kid, but that is the general idea, yes?

Bringing up the subject of reciprocation, a good relationship should be able to handle it, or if you decide not to then put it out of your mind because continuing to think about it is only causing you stress.
— praxis

But doesn't a good relationship also include reciprocity? That's where I'm having difficulty. — Tex

I was thinking of it in terms of your well-being. Stoic advice would be to act (bring up reciprocation with the subject of your generosity) or put it out of your mind because continuing to ruminate will only do you harm.

Bringing up the subject of reciprocation, a good relationship should be able to handle it, or if you decide not to then put it out of your mind because continuing to think about it is only causing you stress.

an infinite line of finite things is illogical.

An omnipotent God is not finite and therefore the only thing that could exist infinitely. — Joe Mello

It seems to me that an omnipotent God can only express its omnipotence within a universe of finite things and a universe without finite things would be unchanging and dead.

No combination of lesser things can create a greater thing without something greater than the greater thing added to the lesser things. — Joe Mello

Problem is that the something greater than the greater thing needs to be created, and the greater thing of that greater thing needs to be created, and the greater thing of that greater thing needs to be created... If a great thing doesn't require a creator then creation doesn't require a greater thing.