I hate to judge a book by its cover but that one is very nice.

You’re basically saying that it’s impossible for an unconscious intelligence, no matter how powerful, to analyze and replicate a conscious intelligence.

Does this have something to do with the existence of a soul?

How can you say that so definitively, aren’t we all still foggy about what consciousness is?

Blindsight, yes, I didn’t recall the name until you mentioned it. It had some interesting parts though I don’t remember it being very engaging, and in fact I think I remember skipping parts. I usually remember books that I like pretty well and I don’t remember much about this one. And I got some of it mixed up with other stories I’ve read recently. I’ve been binging on sci-fi short story collections. I just reviewed the wiki page about Blindsight and the unconscious aliens (or alien) didn’t acquire consciousness at first contact. That must have been from a similar short story.

The operative word is "seem". — Vera Mont

AI’s can seem to be conscious. Chatbots have fooled people into thinking they’re people, for example. I can imagine that AI’s could get very powerful before reaching consciousness, if they ever do develop consciousness.

Is it even possible to have desires without consciousness? — Sir2u

Plants seem to desire sunlight when they move towards it.

Not directly, no.

But imagine, if you’re willing, a non-conscious intelligence whose most underlying motive is procreation. No, I don’t mean Homo sapiens. Imagine that eventually this motive drives them to the stars because they’ve exhausted the resources of their home world. While decimating planetary systems for their own use they happen upon some humanoids and are corrupted by their consciousness. Things quickly go to pot. The end.

Ask her about the paperclip maximizer scenario.

I just asked ChatGPT about it and, sparing you the details, in summary she said:

In essence, current AI demonstrates that you can have sophisticated intelligence without consciousness.

She’s probably a bit bias though so take that with a grain of salt. Btw, in the book the intelligence was organic in nature.

there is no reason why meaningful connections are discarded when a failed institution is discarded. — ENOAH

Disillusionment with a religious institution is often experienced as nihilism, for instance. That may not always be the case and it’s probably only a temporary condition. We are all saturated in meaning, after all.

It is about putting conceptual considerations aside. — Constance

Like putting aside the concepts of good and bad, right?

F the institutions when they fail. Don't discard the essence. — ENOAH

To discard the essence of religion (meaningful connection with a community) would lead to a very lonely and unhappy life, in my opinion.

I read a sci-fi book recently where the invincible invaders from outer space turned out to lack consciousness and wanted to acquire it from Earthlings, even though it was like smoking crack for them. Intergalactic brain-hungry zombies, basically.

There is the pain now free of contextual presumption. What IS this? — Constance

Neither good nor bad, or both good and bad. I don't think it matters which way it's conceptually considered.

One thing Tim Walz immediately brings to the campaign is JOY! He just looks so darned happy to be there. He radiates joy. — Wayfarer

I saw an attack ad about him yesterday, the words painting him out to be a Stalinesque monster, but the photo they used was an adorable snapshot of him holding a piglet at a country fair with a big smile on his face. Hilarious.

Franco and Pinochet are regarded as heroes.

The article quotes from the book:

“Our study of history has brought us to this conclusion: Democracy has never worked to protect innocents from the unhumans,” — Fooloso4

From what I’ve read, democracy is the best form of government for the people. Not that they’re trying to be honest, of course.

I wish I could say that it’s shocking for a US VP nominee to endorse a book like that.

One has to make the move from the way contingencies create multiple contexts of engagement. — Constance

But it’s not in the least bit a contingency. Pain is good. Pain, like pleasure, moves life to homeostasis.

So now we can add unhuman to unmarried female cat-lovers….. — Wayfarer

Idiotically leaning into the ‘weirdo’ branding.

A five star review of the book on goodreads.com:

Past Marxist revolutions are reviewed to provide a better understanding of the cultural Marxism of the Left in America today. While the history lesson is important, the real value of this volume is a discussion of why the radical Left needs to be defeated and effective measures to take to end their scourge.

From what I gather the book glorifies Franco. Not sure if the suggestion is that his way is the way to end the scourge. In any case, I don't think MAGA is big on reading books.

kind of crazy when you compare VP choices. Kamala’s choice is smart and strategic. Trump picked a phony sycophant, presumably only because he intends to surround himself with weak yes-men.

It [awakening] can only be accessed by a turning away from mind and awakening to being. — ENOAH

Religion is a human construction, or as Constance described it, an institution. It’s squarely of mind, in other words. Mind is what you say must be turned away from. This suggests that religion may actually be anti-awakening. This tracks because religions, even the ones that are supposedly all about awakening, are so bad at fostering awakening.

Chiropractic care comes to mind. It’s against a chiropractor’s interests to cure a patient because they’d lose a returning customer and that would compromise their livelihood.

Put your hand beneath an open flame and observe. — Constance

Observe how well it cauterizes a wound, proving its value, expressing its goodness.

the what and the why of "perception" followed by action (including choice/belief) is of ultimate concern to "philosophy." And for the OP (entirely my reading) it can be understood philosophically; such understanding both derived from and flowing back into ethics or action/incl belief/choice. That drive and understanding are the essence of religion. — ENOAH

You seem to essentially be saying that the essence of religion is philosophy. I must be misreading this, yes?

I’d like to answer that. To go directly to the point however, I think it would be most productive for you to say whether or not you’ve felt the promised satisfaction. Without checking, I think you’ve engaged the subject more than anyone else.

Just five words and MAGA hates her and thinks she should keep her mouth :zip:

It seems to me that Vance invited her into the conversation when he labeled her a quitter on Fox News, and isn’t MAGA all about hitting back when someone is nasty to you. I guess that’s only cool when Trump does it. Speaking of which, I hope he attacks every popular Republican governor in the swing states. That would be cool.

If I may step back into meta mode for a moment, I would like to point out that in the OP you promise to provide metaphysical satisfaction to the world, and despite my sincere attempts to feel this satisfaction I keep ending up in a thicket of obfuscating weeds and a Mick Jagger tune playing in my head.

It appears to be an empty promise.

Sensory patterns? You mean my cat is sensory patterns? — Constance

I think you know what I mean. Can we skip the tedious part and get to your point?

There may have been other means of detection before probes were sent to Saturn, I don't know. In any case, the cat at your feet and the ice rings of Saturn are both known to the human mind in the form of sensory patterns. These patterns match our internal model of cat and ice rings. How is this relevant?

Ancient minds didn't contrive transcendence, right?

The priesthood is an institution, transcendence in the context of religion is the foundational indeterminacy of our existence. — Constance

The priesthood is an institution, not the religion?

:up: Can't wait to get my paws on it.

Yeah, I can’t believe he left after being shot. Crazy. — NOS4A2

It doesn’t live up to the cult fantasy, but that won’t stop them from fantasizing that he was forced to run away.

But the image of Trump pumping his fist after an assassination attempt will reverberate through history. It’s quite profound to be privy to all this stuff. — NOS4A2

If he would have refused to leave or at least resisted fleeing, that would have been remarkable. But he acted exactly like someone in his entitled position acts. Run away, stay safe and protected.

Everyone may agree that one plus one equals two but in ethics, for whatever reason, people's values don't always align.

Isn’t our will not free because of limits, constraints, and entanglements?

A better question is: have you been able to shape your world so that it's a paradise you roam in? Or is it a hell you constantly fight against? — frank

Makes you wonder. If we had free will it seems like we wouldn’t make so many bad choices.

@Vera Mont

Have you read Sapolsky’s book? Pretty convincing.

I would reject a "soul" "spirit" and the "spiritual." — ENOAH

I know what you mean but the term doesn't bother me. I guess that I think of it as simply resolving existential crisis. Philosophy, science, religion, and other disciplines can all help, in my experience.

what is the difference between natural facts (as Husserl called them) and value facts? — Constance

The former is supposed to be free of ethical principles, values, or goals.

If we are even thinking of approximately the same thing, not regarding the "whole" so much, but in what we mean by "realizing"? — ENOAH

Make real. Realizing that you’re awake, for example.

For the rest, maybe it’s enough to say that I make a distinction between religion and spirituality. You and Constance don’t seem to make that distinction. I think religion can begin with spirituality, but it can also be entirely contrived.

Judging from your post I’d say that you’re spiritual but not religious.

To say that value is an absolute, and that it’s IN existence, that it’s exactly what God in its essence IS, is completely meaningless to me. If it has meaning I don’t see why you couldn’t express that meaning.

It is "equiprimoridal" in its essence. It is an odd sounding word, but I think the idea rather clear. All of our cultural institutions are like this. What is the essence of, say, marriage? Or science? A library? A restaurant? Anything you can name sustains multiple candidates.

What would it be like for something to have its essence in a singular primordiality? I am arguing that religion is like this. This is the primordiality of value. — Constance

I don’t recall much about it but years ago I read something to the effect that the death of religion is due to the categorization of value. Your one candidate became many.