Insisting on change at all costs and no matter what is quite another thing. — Apollodorus

Right, that's what being liberal is all about. Don't let anyone ever let you think otherwise!

Stereotypical, prototypical, and archetypal denote substantially different things.

But what about the "Left", the camp of change? What can we say about it? I doubt that we can say it is "afraid of permanence" or that it "hates permanence". It may hate the status quo, which is why it wants change, but once the change is in place I'm sure the left wants it to be permanent.

It follows that the element of permanence, of conservatism, is dominant in both camps and this seems to suggest that permanence or conservatism comes first as a fundamental predisposition of all human beings and of life in general. — Apollodorus

Nonsense. Some people are more open to new experiences and change than others. Don't we all experience this ourselves? I have a brother who's two years my senior and who I grew up with. He was always resistant to new experiences and change, and is very much conservative. I'm the opposite.

what is more important, permanence or change? — Apollodorus

Obviously, they're both important.

I was reading a book just now that talks about stereotypes and one thing pointed out is that they always contain negative attributes,
— praxis

Maybe that is a negative stereotype of stereotypes..... — Pantagruel

Well, the alternative is apparently suggesting that we intuit some people or things as perfect. That would be a case of excellent drugs, I think, and have noting to do with sterotypes. Stereotypes are necessarily shared culturally and not an individual or esoteric type of categorization.

Stereotypes are of course useful. We can usually get a useful picture of a complete stranger instantly, for example. They can also mislead, however, with disastrous results. They also promote biases, to the detriment of 'out-groups' and can even be self-defeating to ourselves.

In the book I mentioned earlier, Blindspot, by Mahzarin Banaji, it goes over research that shows how IAT (implicit association tests) results correspond to everyday life behavior, affecting everything from law enforcement, the judicial system, medical care, to government policies, and by people who consciously hold no biases.

Pawdagees — Nils Loc

My favorite was the one about a group of kids who were stealing mangos from a neighbors tree. When the neighbor heard something in his backyard and went out to investigate the kids quickly climbed the tree to hide. Looking around by the tree the man saw some branches moving and said, "Hey, any kids take'n mangos gon get cracks!"

Thinking quickly, the Chinese kid hiding in the tree tried to make the man think it was a cat moving the branches by saying, "meow"

Following his lead, the Hawaiian kid went, "chirp chirp"

The Filipino girl squawked like a mynah bird.

The Portuguese kid said, "moo"

mysticism endorses a non-dual description of Reality — FrancisRay

Any description of reality is necessarily dualistic. Mysticism endorses transcendence.

Unless nonduality is the basis of the 'mystical' teachings then the knowledge claims it makes would not be possible. Hence sects that do not endorse the nondual teachings usually stress the need for faith, while those that do stress the importance of replacing faith with knowledge realization of emptiness. — FrancisRay

Fixed that for ya.

I've only had a rather shallow experience of the kind were talking about, but even though whole-hog realization may be something to write home about, it ain't the end-all be-all that it's cracked up to be. After enlightenment, the dishes, as the saying goes. It is certainly not anything worth building an entire religion around, and that is exactly why Buddhism is so unpopular. Not to suggest that religions need to be built around anything of substance.

the metaphysical basis of mysticism — FrancisRay

Emptiness?

The only non-faith based consensus is scientific where this is reduced to a mere brain state, though a beneficial one, in its depatterning affect on the mind and in reducing existential angst. Can jazz do that? There’s no consensus at all on faith based metaphysics like rebirth, karma, department origination, etc etc.

Stereotypes are only bad if they are inaccurate. — Pantagruel

None are completely accurate so they're not all good, on that point. I was reading a book just now that talks about stereotypes and one thing pointed out is that they always contain negative attributes, somewhere in the rang of 30%.

How do you know if you're in an Asian home? The dog is missing and the kids are doing their homework.

The only thing that is well distributed in capitalism is poverty for the majority and violence for the rest of the world.
— praxis

That's false. There will always be a disparity of everything between individuals. It's just the way people are. Capitalism has its issues, no doubt, but look at what it has done to raise people out of poverty. If you don't believe this to be the case, you need to go back and study the history of the 16th-17th-18th-19th centuries. Life was brutal beyond belief. — synthesis

Not entirely false, there's a tendency for government to side with capital, for obvious reasons, and the rights and power of the working class diminishes. Those lifted tend to not be lifted for long because it's an inherently unsustainable model.

The government is taken over by the lobbies. That D. Trump was crowned president says it all. The wolf and the fox guarding the chicken coop. The United States has not even been able to convict a guy who tried to carry out a self-coup or put him behind bars. Alberto Fujimori succeeded and, despite everything, Peru condemned him and remains in the Barbadillo jail. Today's Peruvian democracy is healthier than that of the United States. Is it acceptable?
— praxis

You need to get over the Trump thing. Look at the fool who is president now. This guy was a joke in Delaware 50 years ago. Now he is just pathetic puppet of the left. — synthesis

What has he done as president that is pathetic?

Perhaps you need to get over the Left thing.

Ban rival political parties, suspend civil liberties, ban unions, have thousands of political opponents assassinated and impose martial law ... and make unimaginable to think another thing. This was fascism: the operation of government for the benefit of corporations and the wealthy.
— praxis

Sounds very much like the left's agenda. — synthesis

Trump Administration Civil and Human Rights Rollbacks

Anti-union Actions By The Trump Administration

Trump’s ‘Big Lie’ was bigger than just a stolen election

The Germans of the interwar period, the non-Jews, had the same opinion as you: that capitalism was a magnificent system for doing good & funnies business. The Polish did not think exactly the same. The fun business here is murder there.
This is unacceptable. It is outside of Christianity.
— praxis

You have one narrative and every single thing has to fit into it. You need to open your mind a bit and see that everything is not black and white.

The entire Marxist thing was put in the dumpster a few decades ago. — synthesis

Socialism is alive and well, even in America, though it could stand to be more widely adopted.

It matters because there's a difference between what we actually experience and what we take on faith or intellectualize.
~ praxis

No serious Zen student will speak of their own path. Even if you thought it appropriate, it is not possible to convey because it is non-intellectual (and 100% experience). — synthesis

You mentioned how a “fully enlightened person” can live a life full of suffering but not see this as good or bad, just simply the way it is. Aside from being nonsensical on the face of it — if it were actually experienced as neither good or bad then it would not be categorized as ‘suffering’ — it’s very odd that a person can’t tell if they suffer, particularly if they can see things with any clarity, or that there would be the least bit of hesitation in relating their experience.

Anyone can intellectualize that a life isn’t good or bad and is ‘just the way it is’. What we actually experience, on the other hand, precedes our intellection.

To be ashamed of suffering is itself suffering.

It matters because there's a difference between what we actually experience and what we take on faith or intellectualize.

I think thinking about things and theorising can be thoughtful and thorough. Faith ain't noth'n to tilt your nose up at either. However, if we have an aversion to such things, for whatever odd reason, then what is left to have faith in but our own experiece.

Fully enlightened people have lived brutal lives with all kinds of suffering. They just don't see it that way. For them, it's just the way it is. Not good, not bad. Just is. — synthesis

Either you're fully enlightened or this is one of those theoretical or faith things, which you seem to frequently pooh-pooh.

I am just saying that Buddhism is not about anything in particular, instead, it's about not seeing anything particular as clearly as possible. — synthesis

There, did I fix that for you right?

So the fat-cats at BLM are liv'n large on the white self-haters dime?



Everybody gotta make a living.

#6 isn’t contradictory, and according to studies in social science is also untrue. Absence makes the heart grow indifferent and familiarity breeds attachment.

"Religion is regarded by the common people as true, by the wise as false, and by the rulers as useful." ~Seneca, tutor & advisor to a Caesar — 180 Proof

That’s a beauty of a quote.

Knowing you can control everything, you would still try to keep it as bad as you can make it because you don't want to be disappointed? It sounds like a very sad case of a self fulfilling prophecy. — FlaccidDoor

Some believe that what we can control is quite limited so it is as though you are endorsing a happy fantasy, from that vantage point. If we have no expectations, or low expectations, we can't be disappointed, and as a wiseman once said...

There is no worse death than a death in disappointment, thus we should seek the death of disappointment. — Wiseman

In the Trumpian value system they would be classified as losers and suckers.

That you believe such a thing occurred is a testament to your own value system, one easily moved to conclusion by gossip and palace intrigue. — NOS4A2

Considering that the previous line to the one you quote suggested that the NYT published a headline that read "Insurrection by orange man almost wipes America out," any half-wit might have at least suspected that I was speaking rather tongue-in-cheek. It suits your tedious (and now largely irrelevant) narrative that anti-Trumpers are irrational, I realize, by making the claim that I essentially don't value truth and will swallow whatever story is published by the 'fake news media'.

You are basically claiming that I share your and Trumps values or that I don't value truth. I do value truth and that's one reason I'm anti-Trump.

Recently the lawyer for Sidney Powell, one of the most prominent instigators of the BIG LIE, stated in court recently that “No reasonable person would conclude that the statements were truly statements of fact.” In other words, Trump and gang were fully aware that his base is comprised of suckers and were speaking directly to them and not 'reasonable people'.

Of course he regards them as losers and suckers.

As in taking headlines like, "Insurrection by orange man almost wipes America out" with a grain of salt, is not the same as saying the insurrection did not happen. — FlaccidDoor

The New York Times and their ridiculously hyperbolic headlines, whaddya gonna do. :brow:

The only confirmed murders were by the police to the rioters. — FlaccidDoor

In the Trumpian value system they would be classified as losers and suckers.

I think you overestimate the degree of acceptance of those things that people can do a great deal about. We tend to think that we have freewill but that is largely an illusion. We can pretend, of course, and that offers some comfort, but the truth is that we are conditioned beings and have relatively little control of anything. The best laid plans of men are mostly fairytales who's ultimate design is to make us feel good about ourselves.
— praxis

That's the difference between people who concentrate on what is happening outside of themselves v. those who seek their meaning from within. On the outside it's you against The Universe. On the inside, it's you. Once the inside you gets its act together, then you can go outside of yourself and navigate The Universe with skill and purpose, focusing on the good and helping with the bad. — synthesis

False inside/outside narrative designed to make believers feel good about themselves, and that's okay.

Alone, in pain, and miserable. I only say that because that's how I imagine it will be, and I don't want to be disappointed when the time comes.

The human condition seems to be one of non-acceptance of those things that people can do little about and acceptance of those things that people can do a great deal about. Seems as if this inversion needs to be turned right-side-up. What say you? — synthesis

I think you overestimate the degree of acceptance of those things that people can do a great deal about. We tend to think that we have freewill but that is largely an illusion. We can pretend, of course, and that offers some comfort, but the truth is that we are conditioned beings and have relatively little control of anything. The best laid plans of men are mostly fairytales who's ultimate design is to make us feel good about ourselves.

The love of money is the root of all evil -- St. Paul
— Caldwell

How do you see this changing people's actions or attitudes towards life? — FlaccidDoor

In the realization that the love of money does not lead to well-bing. Hey! that's what I'd say on my deathbed, "the love of money does not lead to well-being, my friends"... [lights out]

In the unimaginable event that Trump had a successful coup d'état on January 6th, I wonder if he would have made horn guy the Secretary of Agriculture. I assume he has penchant for animal husbandry.

People need motivation to achieve beyond and above — synthesis

They need motivation to achieve Bed Bath and Beyond, but even those are going out of business now. Amazon and slave labor proved to be more innovative and cheap, I guess. Yay capitalism!

how would your redistribution schemes work — synthesis

Funny how when the rich are taxed at a higher rate they call it redistribution but not when their taxes are reduced.

You can attempt to attenuate the corruption at the top through socialism (which also cuts out most of the innovation/discovery as well as destroying incentive), or you can allow people to be as creative as possible and keep incentives in place (with REAL checks and balances) and then the entire society can benefit from the people who dedicate their entire lives to this sort of thing. — synthesis

Would the world really be lesser without all the wonderful efficiency, innovation, and incentive (money)? Granted there's a lot of money to be made in inventing, financing, producing, marketing, etc etc, all the junk (mostly unhealthy junk) in the world, but money isn't everything, is it? Beyond basic needs it doesn't offer well-being.

very sparse with anything close to violent — FlaccidDoor

Another Kool-Aid guzzler, I guess.

The Capitol assault resulted in one of the worst days of injuries for law enforcement in the United States since the Sept. 11, 2001, terrorist attacks. At least 138 officers — 73 from the Capitol Police and 65 from the Metropolitan Police Department in Washington — were injured, the departments have said. They ranged from bruises and lacerations to more serious damage such as concussions, rib fractures, burns and even a mild heart attack.

https://www.nytimes.com/2021/02/11/us/politics/capitol-riot-police-officer-injuries.html

People rioted outside Trump's inauguration. People rioted outside the Whitehouse. People overtook entire blocks of some cities. Since they were violent and were aimed at government, were these insurrections to you? — NOS4A2

I suppose the difference is that they were violent protests with the aim of making a statement or venting frustrations, whereas those who stormed the capital sought to force congress to reelect Trump. For instance, none of the rioters that you refer to were charged with conspiracy, were they?

You are arguing that it was not violent and not against the government?

I'm arguing it isn't an uprising or rebellion. — NOS4A2

Looks violent to me.


And they sought to overturn the election, so not only were they against the government but against the will of the people.

Irrational of course, but then recently the lawyer for Sidney Powell, one of the most prominent instigators of the BIG LIE, stated in court recently that “No reasonable person would conclude that the statements were truly statements of fact.”

Also, many of the rioters have been charged with conspiracy, so not just people getting carried away in the moment.

I don't see an argument, naturally.

I used your argument. — NOS4A2

You are arguing that it was not violent and not against the government?

I don't see an argument, naturally.

"Condemned mostly by Republicans" but "No outrage."

Hmmm.

So what did you base your insurrection theory on, if not someone else's thinking? — NOS4A2

The actions of those who stormed the capital and the meaning of insurrection.

So if you can think for yourself, how was it not an insurrection?

You can't think for yourself?

America did survive the insurrection for the simple reason there wasn’t one. — NOS4A2

Forcibly entering the chambers of congress with the intent of overturning the results of a free and fair election. That’s not insurrection?

I wish he had led the nutters in because then he would now be where he belongs, behind bars with horn guy.

Trump launched his own cute little four page website: https://www.45office.com/

Oh how the mighty have fallen. :fear:

How do you reconcile the fact that the US is about the only developed nation without socialized healthcare and yet the US government pays far more than any other nation, and with no better healthcare outcomes.
— praxis

Corporatism and massive corruption on every level. — synthesis

The whole point of socialism is to protect the working class from corporations and the like.

Go tell that to the 100M people murdered by the Communist/Socialist governments in the 20th century. — synthesis

How do you reconcile the fact that the US is about the only developed nation without socialized healthcare and yet the US government pays far more than any other nation, and with no better healthcare outcomes.

The best way to do this is make people responsible for their own health care (surgically remove the government and corporations) and then people might just pay attention. — synthesis

Your thinking is that if healthcare providers were somehow (magically?) untouchable by government and corporations that people would for some inexplicable reason start to eat right, exercise, get enough sleep, and pray or meditate daily?