Ignorance is easily manipulated, it’s as simple as that. Would you deny it?

... social constructionism is a two edged sword in the political arena, potentially as damaging to the wielding hand as to the opposition. — Joshs

Which would ideally have a depolarizing effect.

The recent Capital insurrection suggests that words, specifically words that compose a big lie in that particular case, can have serious consequences. Ignorance can be exploited by unscrupulous influencers.

:up:

Yes, I understand your general take but you mention miscalculation and my interest is your previous claim of manipulation.

Being able to remove pride and self-esteem from the marketplace of ideas seems crucial if one wants to remain in it without fear and stress. — NOS4A2

The purpose of fear and stress is to avoid folly.

I believe a reconfiguration of the notion of self is a necessary step to disentangling identity from ideology. — NOS4A2

Even if that were easily possible our values are not so easily reconfigured.

I would say that probably some of our ideas matter to us more than others, because they are bound up with the way we see truth. — Jack Cummins

Do you mean that some of our ideas may be more important because they construct our worldview and our identity within that framework, or something like that? Otherwise maybe you’re talking about how much we value truth?

the lockdown is a grotesque experiment in human manipulation (IMO) — synthesis

Experiments in human manipulation are going on all around us, but I’m curious what you mean with the lockdown.

I just hope they don't show up at my favorite all male nude beach. — Bitter Crank

I’ve visited beaches like that and further confess that they have their own unique appeal.

Advertising Media in particular project images of the non-existent post racial America. Advertising images reveal a lot about where we are, and where we are not. TV shows like Grey's Anatomy have a high rate of POC in authority positions, and feature a lot of lesbian relationships. Gay men appear too in GA, but not in the hot sexual scenes that lesbians and straights appear in (which are tediously frequent). I can't think of a gay man who has been as central as lesbian characters or POC, or a gay couple that has done more than hold hands and kissed quickly. (I'm picking on Grey's Anatomy because it's the only TV show that I have watched much of, recently.) — Bitter Crank

I forfeit the right to consult with attorney before posting...

In my opinion it’s a good thing that marginalized groups are depicted in high status positions, such as surgeons, because it may alter general perception to some degree, and to be fair, hot male gay sex only appeals to a small percentage of consumers whereas hot lesbian sex has wider appeal (and I confess to that myself). Years ago I remember being on a nude beach where a couple of hot half dressed girls were making out. Incredibly sexy!

Sorry, much of my effort is spent trying to take you seriously.

So there's around 320 black people die in custody every year.

A long list painted in blood is intended to create a false impression; one might reasonably describe as the impression that:

“there’s a racist killing spree being conducted by the police”

There isn't. It's a false narrative. — counterpunch

The list isn’t “created,” it’s a statistic, right? And as far as I can tell those are your words and therefore your particular narrative. I just read that BLM uses red paint to symbolize blood, if that’s what you’re referring to with the bit about painting in blood.

Perhaps, also, given that black people commit more violent crime, they are also more likely to resist arrest. — counterpunch

So we should just assume that that’s the case rather that study the situation? That doesn’t seem like an impartial attitude. Anyway, given that black people are more heavily policed than white the opposite may be more likely.

I cannot see the purpose of posting that. Or indeed, the point in continuing a discussion with someone who isn't honest. — counterpunch

You asked “What are BLM saying then - when protesting outside city halls” and I posted a video of BLM protesters saying things outside of a city hall in California. Maybe a tad facetious but eminently practical and honest.

Basic BLM claim is systemic racism. If you look at their website, language like “deadly oppression” is used. You would not find any hyperbolic claim like “there’s a racist killing spree being conducted by the police” there or on any mainstream media outlet. Again, you fail to show a disparity.

the proportion of black people killed is proportionate to the number of crimes committed by black people — counterpunch

Trying to understand your reasoning, you’re saying that deadly force is justified against citizens if they’re merely associated with crime and regardless if they pose a threat?

If that’s the case, then I imagine that you’d be okay if you had a son and he was killed by police while innocently traveling though a high crime neighborhood that was predominantly white. It’s weird that you’d be okay with that. I would expect more from those who’ve sworn to serve and protect.

If the program wasn't shut down until 2014, where's the data for 2013? Practically speaking, data collection was shut down in 2012 - the year before BLM were formed. There's something very strange here. Woodward and Bernstein would be intrigued! — counterpunch

I’m not very good at conspiracy theories but I’ll give it a shot... perhaps there were no arrest related deaths in 2013 and because this fact didn’t support the false narrative of the communist lizard aliens from outer space that are on a clandestine mission to take control and colonize our planet their supreme leader (Barack Obama) stopped data collection for that year. Hey this is fun :starstruck:

Indeed, no one is claiming there’s a racist killing spree being conducted by the police.
— praxis

Seriously, praxis? Is that the level of debate? Do I have to prove both sides of the argument to you?

What are BLM saying then - when protesting outside city halls — counterpunch

It’s hard to make anything out but I’m pretty sure no one is yelling “there’s a racist killing spree being conducted by the police,” though I did spot a sign that read “blue lives murder.”

I did not stigmatize, and I can only envy the enlightened society that you guys live in where being a black or gay is a complete non-issue.

And I said it once and I will say it for the last time, you want to continue this discussion I will remove you from this fucking forum without blinking I do not give a shit who you are. — StreetlightX

I think you’ve said it more than once actually, so I’ve had ample warning. Also, I honestly don’t think what I wrote is vile so will likely post more atrocious thoughts in the future, and I’m not a valuable forum contributor anyway. So if you don’t ban me I can only assume that you don’t actually believe what I wrote is vile.

Like what, a fucking virus? — StreetlightX

Like what I mentioned. We all got virus problems now.

Ban away, by the way, if I’m too vile.

We identify deficiencies and defects for different reasons. Defects can be found just about anywhere and the world can be seen as perfect with no defects at all. It depends on intent and purpose, I suppose, or the lack of them.

When considering homosexuality as a defect I find myself trying to think of problems it may cause to anyone effected by it and possible solutions to whatever problems there may be. One issue could be that gay people can’t have biological children with same sex romantic partners. Probably no perfect solution for that but working on surrogate fathers/mothers or adoption availability may help to provide relief. In the bigger picture, if more gay people in society means fewer children, then the world would benefit from an increased gay population and the ‘defect’ could be seen as an asset.

On the dark side of considering it a defect, some may see it as such in order to shun or subjugate. Absurd, considering that whatever issues there may be with it they pale in comparison with more common human defects.

You could produce the link from your browser history — counterpunch

In 2014, BJS suspended the ARD program because of challenges that resulted in a significant underestimate of the number of annual arrest-related deaths. That year, BJS undertook a study to examine the impact of these challenges and to identify ways to improve program coverage, such as relying on multiple methods to identify arrest-related deaths.

https://www.bjs.gov/content/pub/pdf/ardprs1516pf_sum.pdf

The disparity is between the statistics, and the idea fostered by BLM through social media, that there's a racist killing spree being conducted by the police. It's just not true! — counterpunch

Indeed, no one is claiming there’s a racist killing spree being conducted by the police.

You haven’t actually shown a disparity.

Okay, nominated for a Nobel peace prize for inciting riots with lies and burning and looting businesses, killing and assaulting people and attacking police! — counterpunch

That’s not the reasons for the nomination, as you know. If you don’t value truth or reason and only want to pick a side and stick to it that’s your choice.

In 2012, Obama shut down the collection of data on Arrest Related Death by the Bureau of Justice Statistics. — counterpunch

According to BJS ARD data collection was suspended in 2014 because of challenges related to under-reporting and the program was redesigned and data collection resumed in 2015. That’s what I found with a quick search anyway. If this is inaccurate perhaps you could provide links or other verification of your claims.

the disparity between the statistics and the social media generated narrative — counterpunch

What’s the disparity?

BLM got a Nobel fucking prize! — counterpunch

They were nominated, though they did just win Sweden's Olof Palme human rights prize for 2020 for promoting "peaceful civil disobedience against police brutality and racial violence" around the world.

Trump's election tactics were a parody of left wing techniques - identity politics played for political advantage, divide and conquer, post truth deception, and so on. Trump gave the left a taste of their own medicine, and that was a departure for the right. — counterpunch

Deception isn’t a departure or novelty in American politics. Trump took it to new extremes though, and his supporters drank the kool-aid with cultish devotion.

On the basis of their disadvantage, rather.
— praxis

Disadvantage someone is assumed to have, on the basis of their arbitrary characteristics. Reversing that, making those arbitrary characteristics an advantage through positive discrimination is not fair to the majority. It's discrimination against people like me - a white working class straight man with no 'ism' card to play, whose identity - allow me to assure you, confers no particular advantages, less yet privilege! — counterpunch

I can’t speak for the UK but Jim Crow laws that were enforced up until only around 55 years ago institutionalized economic, educational, and social disadvantages for African Americans. Deeply engrained societal norms don’t change quickly, you may have noticed, especially when there is a strong conservative population that resists progressive reform.

Trump aside — counterpunch

Lol, yes, Trump is a rather inconvenient truth for the shit that you’re trying to sell so let’s put him aside.

... supposed victims are getting put in line ahead of me, purely on the basis of their arbitrary characteristics. — counterpunch

On the basis of their disadvantage, rather. Most don't want to give up their advantage, though fortunatly many do.

Of course you think that I don't understand, or am dishonest. How else could I possibly disagree with the politically correct dogma if there weren't something wrong with me? You say my arguments are weak?! You've used an appeal to the worst example, and now an ad hominem attack upon the clarity or honesty of my thought. That's weak. — counterpunch

Your "argument" is essentially that because liberals hold institutional beliefs they don't value truth any more that Trumpers. EVERYONE has institutional beliefs. Money, for example, is one of the most widely accepted social constructs. Just because someone agrees with a social construct says nothing about how much they value truth in general, reason, empirical facts, or science.

I've read this several times and can't make sense out it. Can you rephrase the question?
— praxis

No. Consider it rhetorical. I'm not that interested! — counterpunch

I pretty much assumed it was rhetorical nonsense.

Do you not see that a title seeing a whole group of people as being defective is problematic? — Jack Cummins

Being that there's no moral stigma associated with astigmatism, I think we're safe for the time being and can speak freely on this forum about our defects without fear of censure or bannisment. If astigmatism is ever associated with immorality in some way, and the issue is politicized, we might need to :zip: .

My astigmatism is a human defect and I would guess that few would hesitate considering it a defect. Homosexuality is different (assuming it can be considered a defect) because we may have a moral intuition that it's wrong. Politically it's not unlike abortion in that though we might intuitively feel that it's wrong we can still support it for rational reasons. It's irrational to deny our intuition, faulty or maladaptive as it may be.

Talk of defective humans cannot be allowed to pass. — unenlightened

:lol: Depending on the nature of defect, of course.

The concepts of masculine and feminine, as well as our attitudes about transgenderism and homosexuality, are largely shaped by our culture. I'm not sure if I need to argue the point. Do I, or can you accept this?
— praxis

I don't accept this... why do you think that? — counterpunch

I think there's some biological basis for gender, just as I think there may be a biological basis for liberalism vs conservativism. Liberals are believed to be naturally more open to new experiences and that's could be the biological basis for being generally progressive rather than conservative. Nevertheless, it's obvious that culture plays a large role in how these propencities may develop. No one is born knowing gender role norms, for example.

Whatever the case, on further reading of the topic I see that you brought up the issue of gender politics as "an example of how facts are disposable to the left" and therefore not distinguishable from what I'll call Trumpism. I can only assume that you either fail to appreciate the difference between institutional facts and empirical facts, or that you're deliberately presenting a weak argument in order to mislead. We don't need to look any further than the number of votes that Trump received in the 2020 election and the number of objectively false statements that he's made over his term in office to get a good indication of how much the American right values truth, and compare those numbers to left-wing administrations.

Interesting that you import sexuality into this discussion. I didn't raise it, but now you have - I wonder to what degree the assumption of socially constructed gender is really an excuse for submissive gay men, to play the female role - without experiencing the psychological implications of submission? — counterpunch

I've read this several times and can't make sense out it. Can you rephrase the question?

I think it could be helpful towards resolving the issue equitably, though I realize that those in an advantaged position are rarely concerned with equitability.

It would be helpful if you were to explain exactly what it is that you think you’re prohibited from expressing/discussing.

You simply don't realize how dependent your concept of gender is on culture, and that gender may be much more fluid than you realize.
— praxis

If you assert that gender is culture dependent - how do you know? It's not enough to assert my ignorance - you need to demonstrate it by proving that what you say is true. The evidence for my position, that gender is a biological fact - and that gender dysphoria is a mental disorder is overwhelming. — counterpunch

The term 'gender dysphoria' focuses on one's discomfort as the problem, not identity.

The concepts of masculine and feminine, as well as our attitudes about transgenderism and homosexuality, are largely shaped by our culture. I'm not sure if I need to argue the point. Do I, or can you accept this?

That is quite possibly the maddest paragraph ever written in the English language. Barring incredibly rare genetic abnormalities, a human being with a penis is a man. Not "categorized as a man." But as a matter of biological fact, the penis owner IS a man. Incredibly rare exceptions - such as hermaphrodites, do not invalidate the fact a human with a penis IS a man. That way madness lies - and that's precisely the intent of left wing, post modernist, neo marxist, political correctness bigots and bullies, regardless of the harm their crazy making causes. — counterpunch

You simply don't realize how dependent your concept of gender is on culture, and that gender may be much more fluid than you realize.

Human robots present the same problems as human zombies, which is that they lack a conscious and are therefore capable of anything, and also that they're easily controlled others.

Maybe the mods disagree, but I think its very important to the forums quality and long term life span that we do not lose potential value (not necessarily for them, but for anyone less enlightened than them, who might benefit from a discussion they would find moral kindergarten) from discussions by casualties of that war with the bigots. — DingoJones

I’m thinking that it was all about the optics of the title, so basically PC in nature. Clearly far worse content is allowed, so the moral kindergarten defense doesn’t pan out. Also, a search suggests that homosexuality in general isn’t handled with kid gloves by the moderation team.

I thought that the thread on the ethics of masturbation was really unique. — Jack Cummins

So much for the moral kindergarten defense.

If not being able to conceive or being too short is a deficiency, is not being able to dunk a deficiency? — BitconnectCarlos

To clarify, homosexuals can conceive children. They cannot conceive children with those they presumably love romantically and in that way may experience a deficiency.

Not being able to reach the cupboard without a boost is a deficiency, as is being incapable of dunking. Is it not PC to say this?

Well in what way is not being able to have kids a “defect”? — DingoJones

Not being able to have a child with your spouse or significant other is a deficiency, simply.

Why wouldnt you refer to that as a trait instead? — DingoJones

It can be both.

I mean, would you say the same thing about someone who just doesnt want to have kids? Are they defective for not having the biological desire to have kids? — DingoJones

I don't want kids, but if I did it's great that I wouldn't have to have sex with a man in order to have them. That could be considered a benefit in some odd way.

I think you are projecting your own values (that its good to have kids) onto others and then calling them defective when they dont share your values. — DingoJones

No, I'm saying that it's great to be able to have children with your spouse or the person you love and share your life with.

Is a short person defective? — DingoJones

Let's just say they're vertically challenged.

What about tall? — DingoJones

Being too tall could have health implications.

Anarchists are definitionally left, but so much further left than Democrats that Democrats are scarcely better than Republicans in their eyes. — Pfhorrest

Historically the feeling was apparently mutual. From wiki:

The SPD [center left] had itself adopted the position that both the Nazis and the KPD [antifa] posed an equal danger to liberal democracy and SPD leader Kurt Schumacher famously described the KPD as "red-painted Nazis" in 1930. The SPD-dominated Reichsbanner Schwarz-Rot-Gold described itself as a "protection organization of the Republic and democracy in the fight against the swastika and the Soviet star" and both the Reichsbanner and the Iron Front opposed both the Nazis and the "anti-fascist" KPD.

They are at least “useful idiots” to us, much as Trump is to Republicans. — Pfhorrest

How have they been useful?

Yet another disappointed Trump supporter...

f antifascists are opposed to democrats, would that make democrats... fascists? Right? — Banjo

Antifa are anarchists and they hate left and right equally.

Playing with dirt, when you grow up, you realize just makes you dirty. — tim wood

Not at all. Do you have any pets? Think of it like fetching or wrestling with your dog. Sure you gotta wash the dog slobber off your hands when you're done but it's all in good fun.

Folks, it is time to shun nos4. — tim wood

I don’t think we need to, now that his idol has faded into the sunset.

Childish and hysterical people can't stand criticism and need to live in their little bubble in order to feel safe. — Banjo

Trump used to call it fake news and only watched friendly news networks, speaking of being intolerant of criticism.

I’m gonna miss all the Trump satire, incidentally. He must be the most ridiculed man that’s ever lived.