You're not being clear. What exactly is a religion (such as Christianity in the United States) competing with the state over? You seemed to claim that it was competing for political power earlier. If that's right, how will deregulation and deterioration of entitlements help religion gain political power?

I can assure you that I've made no recent slip of the tongue (or fingers), so lighten up, buttercup.

In the sense I already described. If the state implements social programs, people have less need to turn to the church for their social support. So the church has motive to be against state social programs to preserve a reason for people to turn to themselves instead. — Pfhorrest

I think you will concede that the state has vastly more resources at its disposal than the church. This indicates a lack of competition.

Conservatives (not necessarily religious conservatives, as there are of course religious liberals) claim to be against socialism because they believe it's inefficient, or rather that the state is unable to do it as well as free-market capitalism. History tends to validate this claim. On the other hand, unregulated capitalism without social safety nets, etc. can lead to an unstable economy.

In the US, religion has already lost to the state, in both political power and in supporting the populace. I believe the separation of church and state is written into the constitution. How can there be any sense of competition?

Is stoicism really a personal philosophy? — sime

The difference between religion and stoicism in this regard I believe lies in authority. There are certainly authorities in stoicism, such as Epictetus, but they're not ultimate authorities like God or the Pope, who maintain a dogma of some sort. Stoicism is more like a science that is open to revision, can accommodate vastly divergent metaphysics, and has no ultimate authority.

What the fuck does it tell you?

That’s why the religious right is so antisocialist. They see secular society as a competing religion. If the only social support system is religious then religions benefit. If there are alternatives then religions risk losing to the competition. — Pfhorrest

This doesn't make sense for the simple fact that there are many religions in the world that may 'compete' and if secularity were seen as just another religion then it would simply be viewed as another competitor in the same category of competition. In any case, there's only a marginal difference between religious and secular charity. Secularity tends to support secular institutions and the religious tend to support religious institutions.

I’m hoping you looked at the article, and read it to the end where the article finishes with this line;

“The threat of tyranny can be real enough. But those who act as though democracy is constantly on the precipice are likely to miss the path that leads not simply to fuller justice but to true safety.” — Brett

In the preceding paragraph the author writes:

tyrannophobia is blinding many to the real warnings of the election: A dysfunctional economy, not lurking tyranny, is what needs attention if recent electoral choices are to be explained — and voting patterns are to be changed in the future.

The apparent concern in regard to "true safety" is not placing attention where it can do the most good, which in this case is claimed to be the dysfunctional economy. Nowhere in the article does it explain how mass hysteria or tyrannophobia plays into the hands of totalitarianism. You still haven't explained how one may lead to the other. The truth is that you can't explain it, because the claim is irrational, as is your claim that this topic expresses mass hysteria. To put it bluntly, you're being hysterical, which is extremely odd considering your line of critique.

Let's assume that you've shown the "mass hysteria" present in this topic, how exactly does it play into the hands of totalitarianism?
— praxis

I thought you’d prefer the NYT as opposed to Fox.

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/08/11/opinion/sunday/trump-hysteria-democracy-tyranny.html — Brett

I’ll ask once more, how exactly does the alleged mass hysteria expressed in this topic play into the hands of totalitarianism?

Stoicism expects too much from modern-day man-kind. — Wallows

By way of simile, it’s as though you suggest that the gym I go to expects too much from me. Of course that in order to gain a benefit from gym workouts a regular practice needs to be maintained, as well as balance in cardio/resistance training with adequate technique. Now that I think about it, I guess the gym does expect a lot. I guess the question is whether or not it’s too much, or rather, if the cost is worth the benefit.

Generally speaking, staying fit is healthy, and health is unquestionably good. ‘Modern-day’ mankind may have other priorities, however, which override the value of good health. I wonder if those priorities are worth it. Maybe those other priorities expect too much.

I rest my case. — Brett

Your case is the following?

The comments made on this OP right from the start are full of hysterical nonsense about the end of the world, fascism, catastrophic consequences and war. It’s mass hysteria that plays into the hands of totalitarianism, which is what this OP amounts to. — Brett

Let's assume that you've shown the "mass hysteria" present in this topic, how exactly does it play into the hands of totalitarianism? Feel free to research Fox News opinion pieces, Breitbart, or whatever, in trying to rationally explain your claims.

And you characterize all two hundred and thirty five pages with the few such snippets you can find? That’s irrational.

There’s one for Fascist hysteria? What about the rest? The one from wayfarer was on page 218. Are you working from the end towards the OP?

The comments made on this OP right from the start are full of hysterical nonsense about the end of the world, fascism, catastrophic consequences and war. — Brett

Would you mind pointing out these comments? There’s two hundred and thirty four pages so I’m sure you can find something to support this claim, but it might take you a while to find it.

Quite frankly, the Turner prize awarded four ways looks like a simple publicity stunt to me, and in no way actually addresses the politically polarized world we currently find ourselves in. I might buy it if the works were ideologically incongruous, but it doesn’t sound like they are from the descriptions in the Guardian article. Am I missing something?

I also don’t see the connection to Stoicisim. I can’t think of any aspect of Stoicisim that’s opposed to competition.

A mashup of misunderstood ideas and words. Equally important as 'knowing thyself' is 'knowing thine subject matter'. :wink: — Wayfarer

Heh, well said.

What has this to do with the OP? — tim wood

The OP basically compares Buddhism and introspection, with the fallacious assumption that they are somehow synonymous. Buddhism is a religion and as such it relies on a system of doctrine and hierarchical authority and not on one's own introspection. Its claims about reality, the mind, and the self are not open to reformation. Ancient Greek mysticism, on the other hand, practiced by notable figures like Plotinus and Pythagoras, was unconstrained by religious dogma. As @Possibility mentions, "To start with a limited perspective of self makes sense. But the idea is to ‘know thyself’ in an ever-broadening context."

Knowing thyself can be approached in various ways, such as via physics, biology, psychology, sociology, and of course through mysticism. The best approach probably depends on the reason or purpose for studying the self. Buddhism ostensibly studies the self to end suffering. In reality, however, the purpose of religion is to bind a community in common values and goals (telos), offering what I'll describe as a package of meaning. It should also be mentioned that in some forms and communities of Buddhism that it emphasizes contemplation or mysticism. Generally speaking, mysticism can relieve existential anxiety and in that way lessen suffering.

So the key fallacy of the OP is that mysticism wasn't practiced by ancient Western philosophers. Not only is this false but Socrates, Plotinus, Pythagoras, and others were unconstrained by religious dogma in their introspection. Not to say that they weren't publicly constrained.

Oh? You’ve actually complemented me in the past for it, if I recall correctly.

Truth is so often inconvenient for the Trump supporter.

The OP is well written but, to my mind at least, rather confused and the author’s intentions aren’t clear. My response touched on a key issue that might have initiated a “worthy” dialogue. The OP now six days stale and there are no signs of life to date.

Does whining pass for worthy dialogue on this illustrious forum, btw?

There was no insulting language (vulgarity?) in my previous post. Nevertheless, I was ridiculing you.

Must be that you’re so habituated to ridicule that you can’t even recognize it anymore. :razz:

Mysticism was practiced in the West, though perhaps not as extensively.

Curious what sort of legal action could be undertaken for editing out the personal information of a member.

Just a comment on something VagabondSpectre mentioned in another topic.

NOS4A2 is an example of a poster who toes the line of philosophical value vs effort. His posts are intellectually bankrupt, but they're also coherent and not poorly written. He genuinely seems to believe his ideas, and he definitely puts some degree of effort into posts. He could actually be a paid Russian troll, but even if that's true, his posts still meet that good-faith "effort" requirement, and he otherwise colors inside the aforementioned hostility lines, so even if we knew he was getting paid to write his posts, it might still be worth letting him stick around.
– VagabondSpectre

Assuming the objective of a paid Russian troll is to influence American voters to vote for a destabilizing or Russian friendly presidential candidate, they would be largely wasting their time on a forum like this. They'd get much better results on facebook and the like. So if NOS4A2 is a paid Russian troll, he should be...

I dunno, banning yourself for being crazy sounds like a pretty crazy thing to do. — Pfhorrest

Exactly.

I want to ban myself for being crazy, but if I ban myself for being crazy that would show that I’m sane because a crazy person wouldn’t ban themselves for being crazy, so I can’t ban myself for being crazy.

if you stick to the usage of "race" you employ there, then we are actually on the same page! — dazed

Where do you think that we could be off-page?

do you actually believe that there are different sets of humans that are different unique characteristics such that we can call one set a race? — dazed

If the one set were engaged in some sort of speed competition, then sure.

do you actually believe the world is flat? — dazed

:chin: I pretty sure it’s spherical.

do you actually believe that people are in fact divided into races? — dazed

Sure, for instance, in high school I wasn’t a very good swimmer but I loved the butterfly, which was actually my worst stroke. Nevertheless, I talked the coach into letting me swim in a 100 yard butterfly at one meet. I lost badly and it was embarrassing.

the concept of race has no basis in reality similar to the concept that the world is flat — dazed

In both cases, the bases are social constructs. Similarly, money is also a social construct and an extremely successful one in its adoption. I don't think anyone believes that the actual paper and ink in paper money has value commensurate to its socially agreed-upon value or buying power. Its value is dependent on society to exist. If there were a cataclysmic event of some kind that wiped out 90% of the human population on earth, for example, the fictional value of paper money would instantly vanish.

it's not a matter of refusing to see race, as in fact there is nothing to see
I can see skin colours and differences in physical characteristics, but I can not see races, only faces

You can also see paper money as just paper and ink. Nevertheless, its socially constructed value, unless you're a Buddhist monk or something who practices renunciation, is firmly embedded in your mind.

Which enlightened country do live, just out of curiosity.

But the leftists have now corrupted that once-proud term to identify themselves and their program of more government ownership of property and more controls over persons.

The general or primary moral is care, for those who might need protection. With liberty comes responsibility, as the saying goes.

The point of the issue was that the core principles of liberty is largely absent from other schools of thought. It is central to classical liberalism,sure, but then again classical liberals renamed themselves libertarian because modern liberals excised that very principle.

Liberal is a better label for libertarians than it is for American liberals, I would agree.

sounds like you believe that there are such things as races — dazed

I know that the concept exists, as do you. Similar potentially divisive concepts like age, weight, height, attractiveness, sexual orientation, etc etc, exist. Are you color blind but perhaps an ageists? If so, would refusing to see age help resolve your ageism?

You might need to look at some ink blots or something to help Wayfarer substantiate his claim.

You're obviously being brief and concise in your responses to the OP, as well as expressing your own values and beliefs to some extent. In this section of moral philosophy, you focus on harm, and neglect other moral dimensions such as fairness/cheating, loyalty/betrayal, authority/subversion, sanctity/degradation, and liberty/oppression. I was wondering if they were not mentioned for the sake of brevity or perhaps because you reason that care/harm trumps all other dimensions. If the latter is the case, would you share that reasoning?

Empty and without value is what a trickster becomes when they’ve outlived their usefulness.

There are various sorts of biases, Dazed, do you boycott all terms that may indicate division and bias, such as old/young, attractive/ugly, tall/short, etc?

I think this one is different in that it’s propaganda/self-promotion and not just to make a buck or promote a set of policies.

There’s really no need to read it, we’ve already heard it all in the form of Trump tweets and speeches. The only thing that seemed new was the indication that he may run for office himself. He’s too much of a weeny to say one way or the other though, when asked.

I dislike him but I don’t hate him. Curiously, if the book contents is taken to be from the heart and not simply propaganda for the base, it could only read as an expression of hatred for the ‘left’.

That's surprising and unfortunate.

I was getting ready to walk the dog the other day and while searching audible for something to listen to I ended up downloading Trump Jr.'s new book Triggered: How the Left Thrives on Hate and Wants to Silence Us. Call it morbid curiosity.

The book is basically comprised of 80% Trump tweets and 20% self-aggrandizement. The latter feels almost childish, actually so does the former, but you can tell it's geared towards Trump's base of supporters. That he enjoys hunting and killing animals, has worked hard his entire life, or feels a kinship with the blue-collar workers of American doesn't impress me personally. This makes it appear that he intends to pursue a policial career using the same strategy or base of support that his father uses.

The book tour is not going over so well in every location.