A The empirical data is overwhelming in support of conservative giving versus liberal, with books having been written on it. — Hanover

Pretty meaningless in the age of alternative facts. I'd be interested to see studies. You got links?

Yes, they do but hierarchy is not considered a value but a necessity. — Jacykow

If it's necessary then it must be of value.

I just don't understand the notion that "You can't go more right than making an individual equal to its own god." Can you explain?

The religious right does believe in personal responsibility as well as charity in terms of helping one's fellow man. They are in fact more charitable by all measure than their liberal counterpart, from the amount they contribute to charity, the amount they volunteer in their communities, and the extent to which they reach out to those in need. — Hanover

Rather, research (Washington Post Article) shows that liberals are charitable towards the secular and conservatives are charitable towards religious-based organizations, etc.

The duty to help others derives as an inherent duty and it is not fulfilled through forced taxation and forced redistribution of wealth. — Hanover

Then why don't they refuse entitlements?

Interpreting the right as uncaring is a leftist opinion not accepted by the right. — Hanover

Not uncaring, hoodwinked.

You can't go more right than making an individual equal to its own god. — Jacykow

How so? Don't conservatives, at least stereotypically, value hierarchies?

Is that not a delusion onto itself? — Posty McPostface

Technically no, the delusion being a separate self.

I seem, if anything, to be more sure of my feelings towards others when I am entheogenerated! — Janus

Trippers typically report stronger or renewed meaning for things that might ordinarily seem trite or banal. This phenomenon might only add weight to calculated manipulation while in a state of high suggestibility.

I probably sound paranoid. :scream:

From what I understand, psychedelics leave a person more susceptible to suggest, a conditional that a sexual predator could take advantage of. Allegedly, the underground community of ‘guides’ has an code of ethics that excludes sexual contact.

being an adult around here seems to entail that one at least occasionally make the dangly part reference. — Posty McPostface

That’s ridickulous.

Meido is the real deal. And the new facility looks very nice.

I'm just parroting advice. :smile:

The importance of "set and setting," a competent guide, intention, etc., is all covered in Pollan's book, in rather extensive detail. There seems to be a lot of variables to carefully consider, not the least of which whatever may be lurking in the subconscious that may come to the surface.

Another important piece of advice is to be open and receptive to whatever happens. If a door presents itself, go through it. If something terrifying appears, go towards it.

I've been working towards a transcendent experience, with increasing diligence of late, with meditation and other natural means (not that substances in something like mushrooms are unnatural). I wouldn't go out of my way to try psychedelics, but if the opportunity presented itself... I'd probably try it.

Did you guys see anything particularly interesting while down the rabbit hole? @Wayfarer @Janus @AnyoneElse

I feel as though, "organized" is being used here ambiguously or pejoratively. I wonder what does Buddhism think about the chaos, disorder, and irrationality present in the world, and how to remedy it? Through more order? — Posty McPostface

@wayfarer could address this better.

Too much order, or rather a hyperactive default mode network (See), can lead to host of psychological issues and causes a lot of suffering in the world. Ultimately the Buddhist position claims that the remedy is to abandon or transcend it all, but more practically that there's a 'middle way', not too much order or too much chaos.

That is a very profound and insightful comment. Have you considered expanding it into a paper? Very little progress has been made in treating these mind states and you have hit on something essential to a more meaningful understanding of the notion of therapy. — Marcus de Brun

I mentioned earlier in the discussion that I just finished reading a book that explores the topic. The subject is fascinating and I highly recommend: How to Change Your Mind

To put it in scientific or pragmatic terms, Buddhists and psychedelic mystics both share at least one particular goal, which is to deactivate the neural 'default mode network'. Among other things, this network appears to be primarily responsible for our sense of self, including our personal narratives and conditioned responses. Also, when this network is subdued, the divide between the conscious and sub-conscious becomes somewhat blurred. The overall effect is "depatterning" or entropic and leaves the mind very susceptible to suggestion. This is the basic reason that unguided psychedelic trips are ill-advised, and why the same is true for Buddhist meditation practices. Although it would require a great deal of effort in the latter case to equal the power of psychedelics. It's practically effortless to eat some mushrooms, for instance.

It seems kind of counterintuitive but this depatterning can help to treat many psychological disorders because many of these disorders are essentially caused by too much order. In both anxiety disorders and depression, sufferers are locked into 'patterns' of rumination and conditioned responses. Breaking up these patterns, and taking careful advantage of the suggestibility of these states, seems to be an effective treatment.

I might be professing my own ignorance about Buddhist thought; but, it seems to me that it is all about perfect control through sheer awareness. — Posty McPostface

I've had the thought that organized religion or organized society in general, is at least somewhat at odds with 'depatterning'. Nixon said that Timothy Leary was the most dangerous man in America. He wasn't, but unfortunately for him, he was treated as such for the rest of his life.

There's a recent study mentioned in Pollan's book about researcher exploring the spiritual aspect of psychedelics rather than purely health-related. Scientists concerning themselves with spirituality. Promising!
— praxis

It's deja vue all over again :lol: — Wayfarer

Not like Timothy Leary, if that's what you're thinking. But yeah, the history seems to show that after the ego is temporarily dissolved via psychedelics it tends to inflate to Godlike proportions. One of the reasons I prefer to approach it the old-fashioned way and earn it on the cushion. Not that the psychedelic approach is particularly new. It may date back thousands of years, but it was practiced within a tradition.

In time there will emerge a synthesis of thought. A great work of philosophy that will unite the disparate truth of the Masters into one enduring truth. This might only emerge when the age of self and the 'delusions' inherent to the importance of self come to an end. — Marcus de Brun

You seem to promote the virtues of both pills in the same breath. That a Masterwork matrix will someday be developed, representing the blue pill. And the dissolution of self, represented by the red pill.

I might have the colors mixed up. I don't remember exactly which is which.

It's interesting that psychedelics have made a comeback, but you have to be careful what you say. — Wayfarer

Could be the powers that be are desperate enough to allow psychedelic research to continue, with the ineffectiveness of current treatments for anxiety disorders, depression, addiction, etc. I was amazed at how much research was done in the fifties and sixties before the whole thing was shut down or went underground. Indeed I don't know why Pollan calls it the "New Science of Psychedelics." From what's mentioned in the book it doesn't look like anything new has been discovered.

There's a recent study mentioned in Pollan's book about researcher exploring the spiritual aspect of psychedelics rather than purely health-related. Scientists concerning themselves with spirituality. Promising!

But that's neither continuing to be miserable in the domain of the real nor giving up reality for wealth and power in a dreamworld. — Sapientia

Being miserable in the domain of the real is a narrative of the matrix. An advantage of transcending the matrix is not being a slave to such narratives.

That's a have-your-cake-and-eat-it option outside of those presented, which means you're breaking the rules. — Sapientia

Breaking the rules, yes, that's the method, and if you know the story (it's a trilogy), it was by breaking up the rules that the war ended. No more miserable war because some dared to break the rules.

I've read that probiotics can/may be helpful, but if you feel better already, it could be coincidental or a placebo effect (placebo effects are nothing to sneeze at). Please do report back and let us know how it worked after a couple of weeks. — Bitter Crank

I remembered this and wanted to report back. It's been over thirty days and I definitely feel more relaxed and confident in social situations. Even with people who typically make me anxious and I can't avoid interacting with, like some family members and people I work with. I can't attribute this entirely to the probiotics, however, as I started a couple of other things at the same time. I've been practicing what I'll call 'non-abiding' meditation with diaphragmatic breathing for at least 45 minutes a day.

So what I can say is that meditation with diaphragmatic breathing and high-quality probiotics is an effective treatment for social anxiety, in my experience. Regarding the placebo effect, I have some experience with hypnosis so I know the power of suggestion. Knowing this, I think it's too soon to tell if placebo is active. I wouldn't be confident it wasn't for at least a few months. We'll see.

Things are going so well I don't want to stop the meditation to see if the probiotics are effective by themselves, but I'll probably try it eventually. That will be interesting.

In the story, Neo could fly in the matrix. He even transcended death in the matrix. Flying and no fear of death would not appeal to a rational hedonist? It should, so we might conclude that the reluctance is based on fear (of the unknown or whatever) and attraction to the relative comfort of the known and predictable.

That doesn't make me a coward, contrary to what has been suggested by Her Nobleness. It makes me a rational hedonist. — Sapientia

A rational hedonist who, if we're going along with psychedelics metaphor, denies themselves the rapture of transcendence. Does that make sense? Perhaps ignorance is being ignorant of what's possible rather it being bliss.

Now, none of this really came across in The Matrix, even though that was the symbolic meaning [but then, it did have Kenau Reeves in it.] But, that was reason the ‘red pill blue pill’ scene was meaningful, [or perhaps, what it meant to me.] — Wayfarer

I didn't grow up in the sixties but, coincidentally, I just finished reading How to Change Your Mind: What The New Science Of Psychedelics Teaches Us About Consciousness, Dying, Addiction, Depression, And Transcendence and when I read this topic yesterday I immediately made the association. I didn't get it before I guess.

one could have the experience of living your ideal life [a meaningful life] in the dreamworld, despite it not being the real thing — Sapientia

True. Thing is that no matter what world we live in it is still a construct of some kind. That being the case, what really matters? Does the pursuit of wealth and power matter? Is it fulfilling or lead to real happiness and bliss? If I recall, the character of Cypher, while in the midst of betraying his associates, claims that ignorance is bliss. I don't think that's true.

You're associating freedom with reality as Moliere did. Assuming you have greater freedom outside a dream or matrix, what value do you find in that freedom? — frank

The answer to this is in the story. The characters who woke up could do things that no sleeper could do. Neo could literally fly in the matrix.

Outside of the story and in our 'real' world, liberating ourselves from our rigid and habitual patterns can offer greater creativity, connection, reduce anxiety, and potentially bring bliss.

Why would anyone consciously choose to limit themselves? Because within the boundaries of a known and predictable matrix it's relatively comfortable, right?

Cypher chose the known, predictable, and limited world of the matrix, out of the mere comfort of familiarity and habit, I guess.

be miserable in the domain of the real, or giving up reality for wealth and power in a dreamworld. What choice would you make? — frank

This is backward. Misery is encoded into the matrix. One of the agents even points this out explicitly at one point in the movie.



Indeed, machines lack the ability to describe a free world.

So the butcher, the baker, the cobbler, the culter, the chef...don't have an aesthetic? — Cavacava

They may or may not. Art is just a concept, and as such it can be applied to practically anything. Framing something as art is like an invitation to view a subject in a new or aesthetic way, where we might appreciate what has been previously taken for granted, see new or renewed meaning, or perhaps generally expand our conception of a subject (as I think you mentioned).

I'd say it's going beyond the rational but practical rationality is actually rather irrational, I'm beginning to understand.

You said art's goal is to "To communicate feeling/value/meaning.", and I wonder how such a goal differentiates it from other human endeavors which also attempt to communicate feeling/value/meaning? — Cavacava

In a word: aesthetics.

If this is your understanding, Cavacava, can you explain why art is not paraphrasable?
— praxis

I don't think artworks provide discursive explanations of what they are. The aesthetic effect we experience from certain works of art describe a spectrum of experience which is not amenable to discursive explanation because it expands beyond our typical conceptualization of the subject by opening new ground and expanding our conception of what the subject entails . The experience of art , the aesthetic effect is lost in any attempt at interpretation of what is experienced. If there is no remainder, nothing left out of the explanation then what is explained is not a work of art. — Cavacava

I see now that Harman doesn't claim that art is not paraphrasable. He merely says that art may be created that "no paraphrase ever does justice."

I still feel happy and it feels like my life has a purpose. What I'm concerned about is that I've stopped feeling for other people. I used to care about things like my family, friends, animals, the environment. Now it's all gone. I don't feel anything about these things now. — TheMadFool

Generally speaking, Buddhist practice tends to enhance emotions (including the sad varieties) and empathy, because there's less discursive thoughts which can cloud or dampen these feelings. So feelings may be stronger but they subside more rapidly. Non-dwelling is the Buddhist way.

Are you often lost in thought, such as philosophizing?

I agree that great Art produces something whose imagery is not paraphraseable, "something to which no paraphrase ever does justice" — Cavacava

If this is your understanding, Cavacava, can you explain why art is not paraphrasable?

What do you think the goal of a work is?

To communicate feeling/value/meaning.

[side question: Is a work of art a "something" ?]

As much a something as anything else.

So what is to love about Wakanda? — Edward Knox

Having watched the movie the other night, I can say that I love the styles of clothing, and a lot of the design in general.

Who would aspire to such a society? — Edward Knox

Comic book enthusiasts, maybe?

And would you really want Wakanda forever? — Edward Knox

Nothing lasts forever, and indeed by end of the film Wakandaians were apparently starting to get over their xenophobia and about to merge with the rest of the world.

I stand corrected. :sad:

I believe Regi is talking about the Buddhist sense of it. — NKBJ

I don't think a Buddhist would consider handing out free candy a charitable or selfless act. The body processes it as a toxin.

For possible Trump (dictator wannabe) insights, I recommend adding The Dictators Handbook to your reading list. It explores the selectorate theory of government. I don’t know any good books on right-wing populist theory.

This book helped me in trying to understand them.

Off topic so I'll be brief.

I was only saying, as the article you linked to indicated, working class people are dying because we have let them be left behind. They would be stupid not to vote for him. What do they have to lose? What have we done for them.

I may vote for Trump next time. — T Clark

They feel left behind certainly, and Trump is manipulating that feeling to his advantage. That's why they're sneer worthy, because they're letting themselves be manipulated.

It would be stupid for people like Trump to not support Trump, because they're in the best position to receive the benefits of his administration, assuming that, like him, they too are primarily interested in wealth and power.