I have only three before my favourite spring twilights begin. — Vera Mont

So, it seems spring is your favorite season!

I see winter and autumn as perfect for poetry and literature. It is just my opinion, but its sense of nostalgia, cold, rainy days, etc. motivates me more than the endless sunny summer days…

Of course it is. The same sun's rays hit different parts of the earth at different angles and intensities at every minute as the Earth orbits and rotates, while the atmospheric conditions also keep changing. — Vera Mont

Well, Vera, thank you for the scientific explanation. But I was actually referring to the artistic side. When I walk in the park (it is the path I use every day during the year, as well as public transport) I notice the sun is more vivid. It is orange instead of ochre or golden. I miss that when I am walking back home, my loyal shadow follows me. Although January is cold and cloudy, we tend to have sunny days (we never get into winter that deeply as Sweden or Canada), and then I notice the sun is shiner than before, exactly because of what you explained. I have to wait nine or ten months to see the ochre-coloured sun again...

Coincidentally, this happened a few hours actually. The conversation happened to include a random person my grandparents knew, and they mentioned that he killed himself. Now, when I say casually, I don't mean that people talk about it flippantly in cases regarding actual suicides. When actual suicides are mentioned, they are mentioned in either a serious or neutral tone. — Ø implies everything

Thank you for this information. It is something that helps me to understand Fosse a bit more. I think I am getting closer to Norwegian culture. Fosse uses a neutral tone when a character decides to kill himself. He doesn't use an overreacted nor gimmicky message. He only expresses and accepts suicide because he understands it is a legitimized way of ending life. What you explained reminds me of Fosse, and it makes me jealous of a culture (or sociology) which is neutral towards this topic.

For example: Occasionally, my family has also mentioned a person who killed himself in the past, but my grandparents expressed themselves in a quiet voice, saying: Yes, Mister X, after ending up in bankruptcy, he hung himself... What a pity, and why does this happen at all?
They express this topic with a lot of affliction. They are not neutral, they just feel a lot of sorrow for a suicidal deceased. It makes me sad, because I think they have a fear of death due to the experience of a Catholic education.

As for romanticizing or legitimizing suicide, I would wager that Norway does it more than e.g. the U.S. First of all, Norway is quite secular, so that's a factor demonizing/stimgatizing suicide almost entirely removed. — Ø implies everything

Yes, being a secular is so damn important. Being raised and born in a country which suffered from having an abusive religious educational system, can get me into a false statement where my death needs the approval of the rest or God. It is very hard to find someone here who accepts suicide. I commented that I wasn't fearful of this matter one day, and my parents went crazy. They said I needed a therapist urgently.

Well, although suicide has been spontaneously increased in Spain, the victims are still invisible, and it makes me mad. Even when someone is a young person, this topic gets more twisted into explanation, because most people think: Why are you thinking this? Are you OK? Come on, you are young, and you have a lot of time and experience to live... Etc. It makes me sick, they don't understand life (nor death).

But suicide in general is topic often joked about with younger people in Norway (millenials & Gen Z), but I reckon this more flippant attitude to the topic is generally more prevalent with younger people around the world, not just in Norway. — Ø implies everything

I agree.

Maybe I am just projecting, but when the topic comes up, it seems like people have a face of "too bad they couldn't resist", or something like that. — Ø implies everything

Exactly, they [the people] think we were not able to resist. But exactly to what? And they consider our action as a loss... But what do we lose at all?

Personally, I have some suicidal ideations (though no suicidal thoughts), and as a result, I don't find cases of suicide (regardless of how well the person seemed to be) shocking. — Ø implies everything

Me too, and I usually felt alone because I never found a person of my age (I am of the millennial generation) thinking in a way like I do... And, people tended to isolate me obviously, because we are young and there is no time to think about this! Since I read Mishima, I have seen suicide as an idealised-beautiful ending. Furthermore, Fosse helps me to see it even clearer.

Thanks for your answer and point, Lionino. Lesson learned. I fully recommend this thread to you. I enjoyed discussing the meaning of silence, 'pauses' and suicide with @Metaphysician Undercover. It is a worthy thread, and I am not saying this because it is mine...

It has passed twenty days since I answered you in this thread. I was starting to read Fosse's trilogien. This book was translated by a Norwegian-Spanish girl (Cristina Gómez Baggethum), so I guess it suits what Fosse wants to express in his writings. I was thinking of starting a new thread related to him and his sense of melancholia and suicide, but since you posted the answer here, I think I will keep posting in this thread my concerns about Fosse. I will try to explain myself the best I can. Sorry if you don't understand me because I am a non-native speaker and my grammar is somehow limp.

After reading the first novel of Fosse I ended with these thoughts:

Silence is key in his literature. But this noun or verb only appears in delicate moments. For example: a suicide or death. Fosse does not state: X character dies because of hara-kiri. He beautifully writes: she hears the waves crashing and she feels the rain against her hair, against her face, and then she goes into the waves and everything cold and hot, the whole sea is Asle and she goes deeper and then Asle surrounds her completely, just like the night they first talked, and everything is Asle and Alida and then the waves cover Alida and goes into the waves, keeps going, goes deeper and deeper into the waves and then a wave covers her gray hair.

The last paragraph describes a silent suicide. It made me cry, because it is perfectly written, and I think I somehow understand Fosse. Since you are Norwegian like him, I wonder how suicide is treated and seen in Norwegian society. Maybe I am wrong, but it seems to be pretty different from the Japanese. Your conception seems to be romantic, legitimized and aesthetic. Maybe this is just the author's literature and suicide is a very serious issue in Norway.
Here in Spain, it is a taboo topic and nobody speaks about it. Which is not the same as Fosse, who speaks about the topic but with silent and pauses.

Fosse uses pauses with the aim of replicating them in Norwegian theater. I don't have a big background on this matter because I haven't read his plays yet. I will gain more knowledge in the future because he is an excellent writer, and I will keep reading him. He also states: 'For me, writing is a kind of listening. I don't know what I'm listening for, but I'm listening'

I took this photo yesterday evening in the park where I usually walk. Personally, I feel the winter sun is different from the autumn sun.

Let me explain myself better: the sun is obviously the same always. However, I sense that its sunlight rays and shadows on the street are not the same. Madrid is cloudier in January than in October, November, and December. For this reason, I hardly see the ochre-colored reflections in the windows or showcases.

I was lucky to see the sun setting yesterday because it is usually covered by the clouds...

Agent Smith recently posted — alan1000

Do you mean his soul or spirit?

Agent Smith was banned like a year ago…

Haha I never denied it! — Lionino

Jajajaja una leche!

French is Latin, but aged. — Lionino

Finally! You just admitted French is Latin. :smile:

You shouldn't, because French is English's mama. — Lionino

And the granny? Latin. :snicker:
Or... West Germanic, in the Indo-European language family?

Why not let things as they are? The forum works well, and most of the threads are active.

It is true that there are often some bugs (for example, when the drafts keep appearing even after posting them. This bug used to appear more often, but not so much anymore. Ergo, I understand that it has been fixed.), but it is not a serious problem.

If one day we all have to move to another platform, I will have a huge emotional feeling of melancholia about this forum. :broken:

Crime and Punishment, Dostoevsky.

Hmm... Maduro, the diplomatic friend. https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12909253/Britain-warned-dont-mess-Venezuela-President-Maduro-slams-decadent-rotten-ex-empire-UK-sending-Navy-warship-protect-Guyana.html

Britain is warned 'don't mess with Venezuela' as President Maduro slams 'decadent, rotten, ex-empire of the UK' for sending a Navy warship to protect Guyana.

We believe in diplomacy, in dialogue, in peace,' said Maduro.

'BUT no one should threaten Venezuela, no one should mess with Venezuela. We are a people of peace, but we are warriors and this threat is unacceptable for any sovereign country,'

I think one of the main aspects of considering a country a dictatorship is when its President accuses an European country for being imperialist while they are the ones being imperialists here.

What about the surprise to Xi? Maybe that shouldn't have come as a surprise; — jorndoe

True.

I think Xi is thinking about long-term economics. Xi (and the rest of us, absolutely) considers the end of this war as a good point to start in a new era for economic recovery and stability. But it is obvious that Putin will not tolerate being treated as a clown, and he will not surrender to NATO. It is impressive that, even when all the blocks and financial sanctions, Russia is still there, keeping up with the times. They are determined to take themselves to the limit of the cause, and this is the victory of Russia.

Analysis: Putin promises Xi to 'fight for five years' in Ukraine
— Katsuji Nakazawa · Nikkei Asia · Dec 28, 2023

↑ some of this is news to me — jorndoe

It is not a big surprise. Now the time goes on the side of Putin and Russia, so they are ready to keep fighting and maintaining a patience which we had never seen previously. Probably I am wrong, but I see this ending as a win for Russia. They will obtain Crimea and some other territories like the Donbas, and all the effort and fund coming from the West will go to the rubbish...

I wonder what would happen to Ukraine afterward. Does anyone really think they deserve to join the EU?

Andvake; Olavs draumar; Kveldsvaevd (Trilogien), Jon Fosse.

Excellent. Fosse is not disappointing me and after nearly finishing the first short story of this trilogy, I am very pleased and happy. I understand better now why he considers silence an important part of his literature. I recommend this book to you, @Metaphysician Undercover. It has 160 pages, and it is written in a special method which I had never read until I discovered this author. For example:

My father left, Alida said.
I don’t have siblings, said.
I know you have a sister, said.
Yes, I have a sister and her name is Oline, Asle said
I don’t like her, said.
They remain silent, and they don’t say anything more.

And there are more dialogues similar to the one above where silence is key between Asle and Alida (the main characters), but because I always lack expressing myself correctly, I can’t really explain the beauty of them using just pauses and a silence.

Which British accent? There are rather a lot! — Beverley

Mancunian, Cockney and Brummie are very cool. I think Geordie and Glasgowian are the most difficult to understand.

Which suggests Spanish was not only more influenced by Arabic than English but was a major conduit for the influence of Arabic on English. — Baden

Nicely explained! :up:

@Lionino

Spanish is part of the Ibero-Romance language group. Evolved from the Vulgar Latin of Iberia, the most widely spoken Iberian Romance languages are Spanish, Portuguese, Catalan-Valencian-Balear, and Galician. These languages also have their own regional and local varieties. Based on mutual intelligibility, there are seven language groups: Galician-Portuguese, Spanish, Asturleonese, "Wider"-Aragonese, "Wider"-Catalan, Provençal+Lengadocian, and "Wider"-Gascon.

Once folks have understood that premise, we have to quote the next evidence:

Andalusi Romance, refers to the varieties of Ibero-Romance that developed in Al-Andalus, the parts of the medieval Iberian Peninsula under Islamic control. Romance, or vernacular Late Latin, was the common tongue for the great majority of the Iberian population at the time of the Umayyad conquest in the early eighth century, but over the following centuries,it was gradually superseded by Andalusi Arabic as the main spoken language in the Muslim-controlled south. At the same time, as the northern Christian kingdoms pushed south into Al-Andalus, their respective Romance varieties (especially Castilian) gained ground at the expense of Andalusi Romance as well as Arabic. The final extinction of the former may be estimated to 1300 CE.

Where is England and consequently English language in this historical evidence? Now, it is time to for your arguments, but do not waste my time trolling me.

Edit: Original post had "You stated that English has more Arabic words than Spanish" (which is 100% true), that is what I am replying to. — Lionino

OK. Where are the evidence of your arguments? Just post some English words which roots are Arabic. I can't even name English towns with Arabic influence. In Spain we have hundreds... Málaga; Almería; Alicante; Jaén; Córdoba; Almaguer; Almagro; Almanzora; Madrid; Alcalá, etc.

Not at all, Arabic speakers were much closer to England than Russians. — Lionino

WHAT THE F*CK.


Dude, The Emirate of Granada was just that, as is shown in the following picture. I hope you are trolling me because nobody with sense believes that a Muslim state has ever occupied England. The Emirate of Granada was the last and only independent Muslim state in Western Europe.

How is it possible that English has Russian words if Kievan Rus never went West of the Rhine? — Lionino

This is not related to what you pointed out previously. You stated that English is more Arabic than Spanish, something that is quite impossible because the Arab expansion in the Middle Ages never got into England (Whilst they were here for seven centuries).
Even if English had Russian words, it would sound more reasonable than to have Arabian vocabulary because of the historical and geographical evidence.

English is more Arabic even than Spanish. — Lionino

How is it possible if the Nasrid dynasty never went beyond the Iberian Peninsula?

Monday you can fall apart
Tuesday Wednesday break my heart
Thursday doesn’t even start
It’s Friday I’m in love

Saturday wait
And Sunday always comes too late
But Friday never hesitate…

Spanish is such a mixture of arabian, germanic and latin, very hard to get a grasp on — Ansiktsburk

I just discovered that my language has Germanic roots...

It is difficult to 'grasp on' exactly what?

Thank you for sharing your explanation on this thread. Norwegian philology looks interesting and unique. Although you stated that you are not familiar with the work of Fosse, I wonder how the silent language is understood, used and commonly established in the truly Norwegian language or Danish-influenced Bokmål. We were discussing this because it is interesting how Fosse distinguishes silence and pauses.

I think that you are Norwegian and that's why you have such an important background and knowledge of both written and spoken Norwegian.

Otherwise, just ignore my comment and merry Christmas!

For folks and mates who want to take care of themselves.

I just remembered about this beauty. :cool:

Ha! I knew you would say the kit kat were rubbish, but I decided to put it anyway. :razz:

Ever heard of M&Ms? — Jamal

Yes, and I was in its large store in London, and their taste is like savoring the harvest. Ew!

I've never heard of 'Daim bar,' but chocolate mixed with nuts? Ew! Speaking objectively, a chocolate bar should only have just that: chocolate (and maybe some cookies).

The king of chocolate bars: Kit kat




And a bit of recognition of the national product.

I would care a lot, Javi. And I'm sure others here would too. You are a valued member here, my friend. — Tom Storm

Thank you so much for your kindness, my friend Tom. :smile:

I am aware that I am respected and cared for here at TPF. Yet, what I attempted to explain to Metaphysician is that I have to deal with another 'reality,' which is very different from my presence in the 'virtual 'world. I promise I am unnoticed in the 'physical' world.

Are you saying that people who see you every day would not even notice if suddenly you were not there? — Metaphysician Undercover

But what you describe is people who see the whole, crowds of people every day, but do not notice any individuals, like yourself. — Metaphysician Undercover

I think not, and my thoughts are not unjustified. This will be embarrassing to share, but it is a good example of why I state that if I disappeared, people (in my daily life) would not care. Last week we had a Christmas meeting and lunch. We are like 35 people overall. With this small number, you would consider that it is easy to get along with people or at least be noticed, right? Well, it is clearly the opposite. Most of my colleagues already had a strong relationship between them, and it is difficult for me to integrate with them. Honestly, I am very shy, so it is true I never made a big effort to integrate myself, and I don't even feel comfortable doing so.

Well, back to the main point, when I left nobody noticed my absence. I feel I am that kind of person who is unnoticeable to most people. The one who nobody reminds of. The mates of my school and university? No... they probably don't remember (or care) about my existence.

With these premises or 'background', I personally believe that if I committed suicide, people would not care at all. Maybe you are right that they would feel a bit 'shocked' because suicide is something that impresses people... but it will not go beyond just that...

The issue being that one, the one you call the real world is not a social world at all, it is a world of social exclusion, within which you are alone. However, you have also the internet world within which you are socially active. — Metaphysician Undercover

Yes, exactly. I feel more comfortable here than in the 'non-virtual' world. It will be impossible to talk about these topics for me in the latter...

Fair enough, mate. It was an interesting exchange and I appreciate your contributions to my thread. I will be honest: I ran out of ideas and arguments to keep posting and replying to you. So, instead of wasting your time, I think I must stop because I am ending up in a meaningless circle, the victim of my own comments. My only, I promise the last, conclusion (regarding our exchange on the perception of suicide by the receivers) is that if I kill myself, people in the 'real' (outside the internet) world would not care. Maybe you will care cohabiting with me on the world and reality of The Philosophy Forum.

But there is another world, my daily life. The latter is a big difference in terms of socializing and exchanging concerns with the rest, as I do here. Then, my supposed suicide in the real world outside the internet would not have a special impact.

Is it a contradiction or a paradox? I don't know which one to pick up. This is why I used the example of the falling tree. The main point is as it follows: If I were absent for many months here, I think that some of you would wonder and ask what is going on with Javi. If, in this case, you noticed my death, you would care, even if you haven't even seen my face yet. But, paradoxically, it will not have the same impact on the people who see me every day.

My suicide would be like the tree which fell down unnoticed in the physical (non-virtual) world.

I hope I explained myself a bit better this time...

And, as you highlighted, I also want to know with more detail the thoughts of Fosse regarding suicide after reading some of his novels.

This would be a sort of odd behaviour, actively writing to no one, and even intentionally hiding the material to ensure that it was never read. Would this be indicative of mental illness, or can we say that a person who keeps a personal diary, and ensures that no one will ever read it, is acting in a sane way? How can this be reasonable? — Metaphysician Undercover

It is not reasonable, I agree. But we have to remember that a suicidal person loses all kinds of reasonable ways. Maybe they decide to hide or burn their diary or stuff because they don't want to be remembered. What kind of things are inside the brain of a person who wants to end their life? Who knows...

We have to consider that anyone in proximity will be affected by the suicide, in some, usually negative way. — Metaphysician Undercover

But who would be this affected 'anyone'? It could be my parents, but imagine that they are already dead. Could it be my friends? I don't have any. What about the colleagues at work? I don't have a strong relationship of confidence with them, so if I disappear or die, they would not notice it. Hmm, my neighbors? The building porter? Who exactly would miss me if I am extremely isolated? Again, if my suicide would negatively affect someone, the latter had to respect or care about me previously. Not all suicides resonate in the lives of others. A person dies in the silence of a room or jumping from a cliff. This discussion reminds me of the debate on the tree that falls down, but nobody heard or noticed it...

For me it is clear that languages are different and that if there is a difference then one is to be better than another. — I like sushi

But in what sense is it better or worse? It is obvious that English is more useful overall. All the interesting content is in English. When people from different countries have a meeting, they use English. The internet is more practical and extensive if you use English. So, as a whole, English is more useful than other languages that are rarely used or known.

For example, you will not see people studying Basque or Catalan because they are not that useful for their professional objectives. Maybe we can find some individuals who study those languages because they have a passion for them, and it is amazing. But we have to admit that they are not recognized or valued by many people.

I don't know to what extent English is 'better' than Basque... It is more useful, yes. But I think that 'better' or 'worse' depends on someone's tastes rather than objective measures.

Therefore, as much as the suicidal person is not motivated for "revenge", people close to that person may apprehend this type of meaning through the silent language. The silent language communicates through people's feelings, which is a sort of instinctual reaction, so that the receiver's conscious mind responds according to one's feelings. — Metaphysician Undercover

Understood, why am I to disagree with those good points? Nevertheless, I still think that the receiver is not a key element of suicide. You are treating the receiver as a person who necessarily represents the cause of suicide, and this is not necessarily the main point. We both agreed that there are different causes of suicide. Keep in mind that there are people who commit suicide because they feel lonely. In this case specifically, there is no receiver for communicating the silent language of suicide. Then, this act happens unnoticed. I do not know if you were ever aware of the 'Ministry of Loneliness' in Japan. The University of Tsukuba pointed out important data regarding the main cause of suicide among the Japanese people, and the study states: Researchers from the University of Tsukuba analyzed the degree of influence of social isolation, loneliness, and depression on suicidal ideation during the COVID-19 pandemic using data from a large-scale national questionnaire survey. The results revealed that loneliness had a direct and stronger impact on suicidal ideation than economic hardship and social isolation. It also indirectly affects suicidal ideation through depression. https://www.tsukuba.ac.jp/en/research-news/20230517140000.html

According to this data, lonely individuals tend to be more suicidal than social ones. We can conclude that those suicidal individuals have no receivers for their acts because loneliness is the main cause of this thought.

Note: It is true that the main cause of suicide depends on each country. But Japan has a serious and extensive experience regarding this topic, and I think we can consider their data as reliable.

Here's what I believe are a few key points to consider chronologically. His loneliness was initially not created intentionally, it was the result of his innate personality along with the way that he received the silent language (feelings) of others in his formative youth. He first coped with the loneliness by playing music. In adolescence he turned to writing, and then sought to increase the loneliness because it was highly inspirational, and contributive to his writing. Then he slowly came to realize the incompleteness of the loneliness and how it was the desire for companionship that really inspired the writing. — Metaphysician Undercover

Very interesting what you wrote in this paragraph, and I liked it. But would you consider it a desire rather than just the average transformation we all experience in our lives? I don't know to what extent Fosse desired companionship, but he started to learn more about his life and communicative skills. He began to have a fear of speaking in public, and he ended up reading a lecture in a Nobel ceremony. He just faced his fears.

But why bother go on when not one of those younger selves will ever read me. I can't go on, but I go on anyway, out of spite, or kicks, because at this age I've forgotten how to do anything else. — 180 Proof

I can relate to that frustration. I can't even remember how many times I highlighted this issue while discussing in other threads. One of the main problems of my generation is that most of us (not all, but an important number) don't bother to read something. Social media and cell phones have destroyed the habit of reading a book by ourselves and then forming a personal opinion. I can only say: Sorry for my generation, folks, and thanks for not giving up on writing prose. I think you can feel fulfilled after doing so.

The analysis largely confirms this approach. It is found that matters relating to blame are referred to more frequently than any other issue (87% of notes).

Wow, that data is impressive, because I always thought that a suicide note was written to just explain the cause and say goodbye to the world.

But as social creatures it can also be - again, not necessarily - an act that is in part revenge. Or showing others what they have done. Or showing others that they no longer have the person - 'feel that loss of me' — Bylaw

But this only happens if there is such a controversial relationship between the suicidal and the rest. Yet, it can be the scenario where a suicidal decides to commit suicide because he is bored of life or he feels depressed for some reasons which are not necessarily caused by others. I attempt to explain with these examples that suicide is an individual act that sometimes can affect others...

The suicide note can also be used to increase the hurt. Further, certain suicide techniques can be used to increase the hurt to others, and suicide can be carried out for the purpose of hurting others. I do not see how it is possible to remove the hurtfulness from it. — Metaphysician Undercover

Although I agree that the hurtfulness of suicide cannot be removed, I still don't see why this act (plus the suicide note) can increase the hurt. Whose hurt are we referring to? I can only imagine suicide as a revenge act, but in most cases, this rarely happens. A person with suicidal thoughts starts giving up on life, and this makes him or her not feel motivated by anything, not even revenge.

That's why it is often argued that suicide is extremely selfish. — Metaphysician Undercover

Suicide is only considered selfish if the suicidal person was loved or esteemed by others. Many people die in the pure state of loneliness, and nobody ever remembers them...