Basically, the tesseract (4D) is to a cube (3D) as the cube is to a square (2D), as the square is to a line (1D), and as the line is to a point. — Possibility

I understand it now. I really like your metaphor and it reminds me the cascade one but yours is more technical and specific. So I guess it is pretty to use too.
Well, inside TTC we can use as many as metaphors we could imagine because it is a really free interpretation poem.

I googled. First thing that came up was from wiki:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tesseract — Amity

Thanks I misspelled previously this is why a random tech word appeared.

Thanks :up:
I will try to resist the temptation to go on an Easter egg hunt. That's over — Amity

You are welcome :up:
I don’t think it is an Easter Egg because I guess it is just a random phrase by the author who translated. I start losing credibility in the book I have...

Personally, I understand the structure as more of a dimensional relation - like rendering a tessaract, but the metaphor is maybe not so pretty. — Possibility

This one sounds so interesting but I don’t get it because I don’t understand what is a tessaract. When I search in internet appears this: Tesseract is an optical character recognition engine for various operating systems. It is free software, released under the Apache License.Originally developed by Hewlett-Packard as proprietary software in the 1980s, it was released as open source in 2005 and development has been sponsored by Google since 2006

I guess I am in the wrong way because that is literally tech :rofl:

How interesting is that !
Can you copy the whole verse out to show where it appears in context ? — Amity

Look, here appears in my book. It is Spanish. But you can see it is in different context or probably he is saying goodbye because it is in parentheses... and then is when the verse starts. I refer the first paragraph, when the parentheses ends.

I was thinking not only of the material rungs but also the spaces between the rungs.
The rungs need the flow of space as well as the strength of the joints.
If the rungs are wide enough, they can hold more than one aspect of a type.
We are multifaceted beings - connected in space - — Amity

This point is so interesting! I didn’t notice it as this way. Now, as you explained the space between the rugs I see it differently too. It could be more complex ladder metaphor because somehow It passes to my mind the act of “climbing” and then, I thought that every paragraph was different p. But now, it is more clear about the space example or metaphor.

He presents the separate sayings as separate. He prefers real incongruity to contrived cohesiveness. — Amity

Yes. Agreed. Tao used to put this criteria to explain balance or equilibrium, etc...

For example, what are your thoughts on the recent debate regarding which metaphor is more useful or helpful - the ladder or the cascade ? — Amity

To be honest, I choose the cascade method because for me it is more useful. Probably because I saw explained it in the video you shared with me so I literally see TTC as cascade since that day. Ladder could be more difficult because steps could mean one phrase or verse are above or higher to another but I do not see it as that way. Also, I remember the conversation of Lao-Tzu with Tu-Fu. Here is when Lao explained that TTC, as water, flows over us during our lives. I guess this is why cascade metaphor is more accurate.

Is that why you picked out the final verse ? — Amity

To be honest I picked the final verse because there is a strange phrase (supposedly from Lao-Tzu) that I wanted to share but I don’t know their origin neither if it is verified. The phrase literally says: I have finished. Perhaps, you will find my discourse so rough, not subtle neither wisely.

This phrase randomly appears in my version but surprisingly I do not see it along internet so I don’t know if it is true at all...

What is sometimes called fallibilism — StreetlightX

Interesting. I want to read and check more about it. Thanks for sharing the link :cheer:

I would say judicial positivism.
"You call one of them, I presume, a virtue and the other a vice?" "Of course." "Justice the virtue and injustice the vice?"

Plato, The Republic, 348c, Plato V, Republic I, Books I-V, translated by Paul Shorey, Loeb Classical Library

I guess you could like check out this table of Freisan school about moralism and ethics (Key Distinctions for Value Theories.)



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I have consistently found beliefs not backed by observation to be not reliable, so there is no contradiction. — John Chlebek

I guess your friend or mate was right in this sentence. I would sound quite empiricist but literally how can you have such beliefs when yo don’t even have a back to explain it. There are persons, atheists or whatever, that is not sufficient for them just say “I believe in it because I have faith” when it could sound even empty of content.
I guess difficult context as religion is upon the individual of each person who is free to think if it is a sufficient backed belief or not.

This quote of Wayfarer is interesting and I like it :100:

That would be empiricism, broadly speaking.

What you're getting at is close to the problem that emerged for verificationism. Verificationism was associated with positivism and the Vienna Circle during the mid 20th century. A J Ayer's Language Truth and Logic was a very influential book written on these principles, published 1936. It is a very tightly written and argued book. But the problems with positivism became evident over time, very much along the lines that you suggest - that verificationism is not itself an empirically verifiable principle. (Mind you putting it in these highly condensed and bald terms doesn't do justice to the scope of the debates about the subject). — Wayfarer

Seek a fairer game. Most are rigged with traps for honest people. — Zophie

Good quote :up: :100:

Why pick the arduous and painful paradigm when there are in principle an infinite number of hypotheses that can support any given observation? — Zophie

Could be but in the long run or most of the times the paradigm of pain tend to be in the most of the cases.

), is it at all worth rationalizing one's being? — Aryamoy Mitra

Despite the fact as you good explained previously that is painful rationalising one’s being, I guess it is worthy because at least we are more open minded. I rather live in a serious pain in my mind/awareness when I acquire then sense about myself.
It is true that all of those who never thought about this fact tend to be more happy because they do not think about all of the issues. Nevertheless, I guess it is worst living in a blind life than painful real one.
But this is just my thought...

Verse LXXXI (last one)


True words are not beautiful
Beautiful words are not true
Those who are good do not debate
Those who debate are not good.
Those who know are not broad of knowledge
Those who are broad of knowledge do not know
Sages do not accumulate
The more they assist others, the more they possess
The more they give to others, the more they gain
The Tao of heaven
Benefits and does not harm
The Tao of sages
Assists and does not contend

My own thoughts: modesty and kindness are the key words in this verse. If we put emphasis in how they want put a balance in the first phrases, we can clearly see how he promotes the development for all those who are not showing off their skills to others, because we should share our knowledge to others not because how wise we are but with our sense of humility. For this reason, the Tao says: Those who are good do not debate Those who debate are not good. Those who know are not broad of knowledge Those who are broad of knowledge do not know
Kindness because Tao goes for the principle of respecting every individual not making him feeling less than the Tao himself. This is why says: The Tao of heaven. Benefits and does not harm. The Tao of sages. Assists and does not contend

Derek Lin's interpretation says about this verse:
Sages have no need to accumulate worldly knowledge or goods, because they find contentment and abundance in helping and giving. The more they render assistance, the more fulfillment they possess; the more they give to people, the more blessings and wisdom they acquire.
Sages recognize that the positive, uplifting Tao of heaven benefits all living things and does not harm them. In emulating this, sages also seek to benefit others by helping them, and refrain from harming them with contention.

As @AntonioP said, this thought shows up when our knowledge developed in high scales. Descartes explained this virtue with his famous phrase Cogito ergo sum.
So, in the moment we are literally aware of our own existence is when appears that feeling of "ME", "I am existing", "I am real" etc...

I guess "An Essay Concerning Human Understanding" by John Locke could fit what are you looking for.

OK, I don't see that in the YouTube description of Ch11 as linked.

I am not sure that from the beginning of the book, the TCC itself right through to the very end is a 'cascade' as in a tumbling down or a descent...
Perhaps it is. I will have to wait and see. — Amity

The "cascade" method was just my personal interpretation of how the thinker of the video interpreted TTC. When you see how he reads and analyzes it, somehow looks like a cascade in my humble opinion but this fact is never being told in the video itself.
Sorry if I confused you because I guess I did not explain myself accurately :sweat:

Cool! Let me know how that goes... . — 3017amen

Sure I will :100: :up:

BTW, do you have that Chronophobia book? — 3017amen

No. Sorry I only have the brief analysis which appears in the link above

that in order to understand what someone is telling you, it is necessary for you to assume the person is being truthful, then imagine what could be true about it.
— George Miller

Interesting quote and question. I guess we already do this system because most of the time when the members are debating we used to share a lot of bibliography, links, reads, books, videos, etc... so I guess this where we get and respect Miller’s law.

Keirk, being the sensitive man that he apparently was (with his sentience), tries to parse the emotions associated with describing time — 3017amen

He was right because time is always floating there around our lives and remembering us that our lives are limited. When I finish some experience that lasted some years randomly appears to me mind a weird sense of nostalgia because I think I will never live that period again in my life so I don’t how to explain this emotion... sadness or happinesses? It depends in the emotion and the memory we talk about.
Also in this context can appear the so called chronophobia that it means anxiety and uneasiness about time (https://mitpress.mit.edu/books/chronophobia) which could be very serious mental problem...

Does that mean we should experience doing instead of just thinking? Can we get more out of life by doing? Or do we wear both hats... . — 3017amen

True! I guess I going to be more able to answer this questions from a Kierkegaard's point of view soon because I bought a book from him: the concept of anxiety

I am beginning to think that we are practising the Dao, don't you ? :scream:
The internet connects us all in good ways, if we know where to look and evaluate the content before deciding to share. — Amity

Yes! We are doing so. It is important this practice because we can ensure the quality of our documents. The, most of the cases we will know we are in the right path at all.

Sorry, I didn't catch that. Where did you find this ? — Amity

I found this interesting interpretation here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nOAU7IlVF-I&t=46s
For example, check out this verse:

The Tao that can be spoken is not the eternal Tao
The name that can be named is not the eternal name
The nameless is the origin of Heaven and Earth
The named is the mother of myriad things
Thus, constantly free of desire
One observes its wonders
Constantly filled with desire
One observes its manifestations
These two emerge together but differ in name
The unity is said to be the mystery
Mystery of mysteries, the door to all wonders

He reads it as a cascade in terms that what is the meaning of the first phrase and then what is the meaning of the last one. He not only does so in as a general aspect but an individual one. How the verse tumbling down as a cascade from the first phrase to the last one.

His written translation, explanation and notes from:
https://terebess.hu/english/tao/DerekLin.html#Kap17 — Amity

Thanks to this page and the translation of sir Derek Lin I going to compare my thoughts about TTC with his comments. Also they are already in English so it will be so helpful to improve the perfect vocabulary when is required.
What I want to do from now is read a verse of TTC, interprete it in my mind and then compare it with Derek Lin's interpretation. I think it could be a good idea because sometimes I feel so lost from the real nature about TTC.

One of the beautiful things is how we are sharing different links and information. You are providing to me more information than my university back in the day :rofl:

Actually Kierk argued the opposite here in this short read: https://www.brainpickings.org/2017/04/18/kierkegaard-concept-of-anxiety-time/

This one was so interesting to read. Time and all of the interpretations are one of the things I like the most inside philosophy.

I guess somehow yes because Russia wants keep all their power in countries which are close the Russian frontier. This exactly happens with Georgia back in 2008... nowadays who cares about the citizens about Georgia? Russia won.

Thanks so much for quick listening and responding. Your English is excellent if you can understand that so well — Amity

Thank you for the feedback. This motivates me to keep going sharing thoughts about TTC in English with you. :100: :up:

True and my fault was forgetting Irak but I guess this example is different because Baaz party (Sadam Hussein leader) was clearly killing another ethnic in Kuwait for no reason. Also, we even can speak about different worlds.
While Ukraine is clearly a West/European country which is crying for being part of the club, Irak is in the Middle East, Islamic and completely hates all related to the West. There were more followers of Sadam Hussain than we actually guess.
Also the hidden parts of this context is different too because is clearly that USA went there just for oil. They hadn’t nuclear power neither bombs. Doesn’t matter how wacky was Sadam. But Ukraine acts as a democratic country that Russia does not want let them go. We cannot solve all the worldwide problems. I guess Irak will never want being as us.

I wish I can change the situation but not I can’t do it neither is in my hands.

I just saw it and these are my thoughts:

First of all, I think I discovered a new way of interpretation. He literally understands TTC as a cascade. from the first verse to the last one. I guess this would help me to interpret all the verses. I will keep it in mind more closely.
In the other hand, I have to improve my vocabulary. As I thought I was not making the proper translation. So, the next time I guess it will be important just seeing this dude again or search through internet the exact verse instead of translating it by myself...
About the verse:

It is interesting how he used the following pattern: emptiness<->function. As he perfectly explained, this is the basic figure of the verse. Container because only when it is empty is functional. A wheel because needs to be fitted. Then, a room, because when is empty is more accessible than a full one.
So, despite the fact emptiness could be a negative word, his interpretation is that we need both. He literally said the following:

Substance (having) is positive. Emptiness (not having) is negative. But you need both as a equilibrium/balance.

Also, probably is off topic but he remembered that a wheel is related as birth/rebirth inside Buddhism.

Amity!

Thanks for keep sharing this information with me. So much appreciated. I going to give a look

Inevitably if Nato attacks Russia, China will side with Russia.

Each of the three principals has got a huge nuclear weapons arsenal. — god must be atheist

Not only China but North Korea. This conflict is pretty similar with all of those islands of Japan where China silently approaching to them. Russia helps and respects it because clearly there is a common treaty.
To be honest, I feel bad about Ukraine because they do not receive the supplies or protection they deserve. Everybody is feel scared about what Russia could do if we don't respect their "frontiers"
Keep in mind how Putin treats their political rivals. This dude is scary. I'm sorry for Ukraine but I don't know if NATO is ready to do something.

From https://principlesoflearning.wordpress.com/dissertation/chapter-4-results/themes-identified/repetition/ — Amity

Thanks for sharing it. I will check it out :100:

Childless myself, the only reason to procreate is there is no reason, just urges and her prerogative. — 180 Proof

:100: :up:

Some straight men and women were also not fit partners. — Bitter Crank

I am heterosexual and yes I am not a fit partner for anyone. This is why sometimes I doubt about the true nature of sex. I mean, it could be that little percentage of people that somehow do not get laid for a lot of reasons. When this happens, someone like me is being told that "I should go to a therapist because it is not normal at all not having affection or motivation for anyone"
Excuse me, why this has to be bad? Why don't we consider it as normal too? This situation of not fitting partner, as you explained, can happen too.

It is now way too late for Zero Population Growth. If we do not shrink our population, nature will eventually find a method for reducing our excess population. Nature has done this before with other species and it will do it to us if necessary (or maybe we will do it to ourselves). I guarantee that we will not like it. — Bitter Crank

Yes! Agreed. I going to sound pretty totalitarian but I like the chinese idea of 1 kid policy. There are a lot of people in Earth that nature is getting upset with us. Back in the day, for better or worse, we had a lot of wars so we compensate it. But now, living in the most long run Era of peace, it is clear how overpopulated the Earth is.
To be honest, it is true that I don't know which is the feeling of having kids and being a dad so I could sound ignorant. Nevertheless, my statement still be that we should be toughest about promiscuous sexuality

Mostly though, children are the result of sex, and people like sex--as nature intended. — Bitter Crank

Interesting quote. So, in this context, we can argue that sex is a trap created by nature just to promote human species.

Verse XI

One wheel is composed by thirty sensible radios, but spins thanks to the central emptiness of a not sensible cube.
The crockery are made of sensible clay, but their hole is not sensible for the one who is serving.
The no sensible holes that are the doors and the windows of a house, are the essential
As we see in these examples.
The efficient, the result, comes from the no sensible

Thoughts: I guess TTC wants to show us here the difference between tangible and not tangible things. It is interesting how he explains that no sensible aspects are the ones which put emphasis in the sensible.
Probably, TTC is referring here as the spirit or soul of the things that exist around us as a mechanism of how they actually work.
Despite we need a practical part, he focuses in the importance of the roots or beginning from those things. Thus, no sensible parts.

The worst scenario is that people have children to validate themselves. — Andrew4Handel

Sometimes they even kids just to save a broken marriage... what happens at the end of the day? A kid raised in an unbalance family where nobody cares actually about him and probably he will end up with a lot of traumas in their adulthood

When the great Tao is abandoned,
Benevolence and righteousness arise.
When wisdom and knowledge appear,
Great pretense arises.
When family ties are disturbed,
Devoted children arise.
When people are unsettled,
Loyal ministers arise.

This is from Derek Lin’s translation of Verse 38:

Therefore, the Tao is lost, and then virtue
Virtue is lost, and then benevolence
Benevolence is lost, and then righteousness
Righteousness is lost, and then etiquette
Those who have etiquette
Are a thin shell of loyalty and sincerity
And the beginning of chaos — T Clark

I liked these two verses compared. It is so interesting what you are sharing in your debate. I am reading it from the shadows :wink:

"If all (perception and understanding of) reality is subjective then the burden of proof is not on the claimant but on the disagreer" — New2K2

Now I understand you and yes! It is a good point. Agreed :100:

I don’t understand your question :sweat:

They are literally experts in disguise. I guess this is the only way to survive is something as complex as politics because is a world similar to a jungle where only win the strongest, thus, the most expert in disguise.
To be honest we shall not applaud neither re-elect... it is disgusting when they promise something but end up doing literally the opposite. Also, in the modern era, politicians tend to be violent and divide people just with the art of disguise
I would not have the ability of dream making so much conflicts as politicians.

Why do we care about the false beliefs leading to racism, misogyny, prejudice in general, pseudoscience et al and not about the rest of peoples panoply of false beliefs that motivate them? — Andrew4Handel

For us could be false beliefs but for others can be a reason of living. Sadly, humans tend to separate each other between ethics or races for centuries. As you said, this is completely wrong but somehow has motivated a lot of people because they used to like the feeling of being different and superior because my skin and money say so. Governments and social media are guilty in this context more than ever. They are spreading a lot of hate
I guess having false beliefs as you said, for example, the moon is made of cheese make us being imaginary people and I think is good. Sometimes believing in something that could be false is not dangerous since the moment we do not hurt each other.
Remember the white supremacy is totally a false belief but caused a World War and millions of deaths...

Does it matter the reasons people give for their actions? I think it does because I believe in truth and authenticity. — Andrew4Handel

Yes, it is. We should do it always.