You cannot escape the need for identity conditions by focusing solely on relations rather than particulars, because relations are particulars — Pneumenon

I have a question, and sorry for my basic knowledge on this, but I want to learn about this very interesting topic.

My question: according to your points, are you stating that mathematical objects are dependent upon identity conditions rather than structure? If I remove those conditions, the mathematical object doesn't exist?

I'm curious about the fundamental core of each mathematical object's existence.

By whose minds? The clay is strictly related to the statue if it is necessary to be made by the potter. But this is not necessary. Bob can go to another artist, and ask for a marble statue instead. I thought along this thread that the clay is only in the potter's mind.

Holy cow... @Benkei :yikes:

Boris Johnson's secret plot to invade The Netherlands with British forces and seize Covid vaccines

Disgraced and humiliated former Prime Minister Boris Johnson drew up a half-brained secret plot to invade The Netherlands and swipe Covid-19 vaccine supplies, he happily reveals in his ludicrous new memoir.

The brazen ex-PM’s shameless memoir, titled ‘Unleashed’, details just how detached from reality the ludicrous Tory leader had become during one of the worst crises to ever befall the UK. Johnson claims he devised plans for the UK armed forces’ elite units to covertly raid canals in The Netherlands and seize vaccines, following what the bumbling toff claims were months of “futile” negotiations with European Union leaders to release five million Covid jabs.

Poetry in Music? — Amity

Roxy Music - More Than This. :sparkle:

And it is these ignorant people, the most uneducated, the most unimaginative, the most unthinking among us, who would make themselves the guides and leaders of us all — Art48

This thread is basically focused on American folks. Some things, such as Christian nationalists don't exist here and religion split apart from politics a way ago...

Soltad a los perros porque me he escapado.

In an aleatoric process, forms are discovered, not created. Or they're "created" by being discovered and used in new ways. — jkop

I agree. But it is very difficult to find an example where forms are discovered, not created. Maybe it is just our perception when we use the form we already know in different ways. I think it would be difficult for a potter to mould a triangle or cube if he is not aware of these shapes or forms...

Or could he mould it by chance, as it suggests that link? Hmm... interesting. Time to throw a block of clay in my pot, let's see what destiny is preparing for me this Friday.

Yes, I think so. Forms and shapes are observed and processed by us. I mean, the sun is not aware that it is a sphere. Our mind just processed the sun in such a shape. I think this is what happens to Bob. He wants a statue, a form that is only in his mind and desire. The potter is not guilty because he only works with clay.

The Elephant's Journey by José Saramago.

I am back to Saramago. This time, the author tells the story that the King of Portugal gives to Archduke Maximilian an elephant as a wedding present. The elephant's journey starts in Lisbon and has to end in Vienna. If I am not mistaken, @Lionino was part of the journey. I saw him when they crossed Valladolid.

You're saying Bob paid for the form, not the clay. It sounds like you're saying we can separate the two — frank

Exactly.

As you say, the same form can appear with different materials. — frank

Yes, the same statue can be made of marble or even wood. It is all on Bob's taste.

But where is the form if it's separate? In a special realm? In people's minds? — frank

Good questions. I admit that I didn't think that deeply in the form but only in the content because it seemed (at least to me) that clay was key to the statue, and that's not true. I can only say that form is mind-dependent, and I agree with you. This is why I think the material is not relevant. Bob wanted a statue of his beautiful dog (for example). Does it really matter if it is made of clay or marble?

Hmm... Tricky. The role of the potter is more relevant than it appears in the book.

I don't think the statue is really attached to the clay in terms of form and content. Although it is true that Bob went to a potter, a statue can be made of different material, such as marble or gold. Bob expected to receive a form of something, but he received a lump of clay. Bob can easily go to another artist and ask for a marble statue instead. So, no, they are not attached to each other. But what about the artist, so-called the potter? I see a dependent relationship between him and the content but not form. Potters only work with clay, so everything that is put on his hand will be made of it. Then, I think clay is more dependent upon the potter (which is the main cause of the existence of his job) than the statue itself.

The Tao Te Ching thread gives me a lot of nostalgia! More than two years have already passed!? Wow, time flies by, Amity.

I am ready to go there, and share thoughts and ideas with you. It will be a pleasure.  :up:

Which is why I'm never on Twitter/X/Elon's propaganda toy. — Benkei

Yes. @SophistiCat's post just shows that the Brazilian Supreme Court made an effective judicial decision to ban «X» (which reminds me of a deodorant brand) in Brazil. I wish the judicial authorities of our countries could follow the same path in the future.

Nice! But I don't deserve that recognition. @frank was actually who nailed the forecast on the reduction of interest rates in September. I start to think that frank might be working at the US Fed Res. :eyes:

You are imagining something. Nothing is the absence of any qualities or attributes. It can't be imagined because by that very act you are imagining something. — Tom Storm

I wholeheartedly agree, Tom. Then, when I think of 'nothing' I only can imagine in the letters that form the word: N - O - T - H - I - N - G. What else can come to mind about nothingness? Because we agree with the difference between that and emptiness, right?

I know you were not talking about math. I tried to see whether nothing is identifiable or not. As zero can represent emptiness and it can help us to understand facts, I wonder what represents the absence of those elements (no time, no matter, no fields, no energy).
I will be clear: when you think in absolute nothing, what comes to your mind? Everything white? A sparkle? A very deep, dark, and cold ambient?

et

I think the only way to get to "nothing nothing" might be using zero. "0" comes from Arabic ṣifr, which means empty. While Greeks never had zero on mind, Arabian mathematicians used zero to represent emptiness, but took it into consideration and in their calculus. Then, zero is countable, although it is empty. So, "nothing nothing" might go beyond something empty. Maybe this would be the place where metaphysics was born...

23/9/2024. Cloudy and windy morning.

Hey Jafar, nice to see you posting again, mate. I recommend you to jump on threads in which you feel interested; don't be afraid. For example, last summer I had some exchanges with folks in 'infinity' and 'perception' threads. My background is not very good in mathematics or metaphysics, but I wanted to learn, so I started to post some questions, and then I tried to debate with the rest.
I appreciate the patience and respect from the people because they could ignore me, but they decided to get me among them instead. This is the general attitude in TPF. I barely had negative experiences in philosophical threads. My only advice would be to stay away from political discussions. It is a pain in the neck!

But hey, it will probably be a last minute decision. Not holding my breath! — Amity

Yes, I feel you. It gives me anxiety to wait until the last minute when the decision is taken. I start to sweat, have nightmares while sleeping, and I endlessly walk here and there in my small corridor. I dislike when this happens, but it is fascinating to experience such a level of adrenaline. 

AND...that of others...@Baden Jamal @fdrake et al.
The Literary Activity 2024. Is it happening? — Amity

I talked with @Baden about this like two months ago in The Shoutbox. He said it was better to do the literary activity once a year, and I couldn't agree more with that. If I am not mistaken, I think we did the last literary activity around late December of last year. So, the literary activity may be open next December if my forecasts don't go wrong. :smile:

Renga! Wow it has been a while since the last time I read renga poems. I remember that in my community of haiku we tried to write some renga, but the result was not good enough. I personally believe that haiku is something individualistic, an expression of an amazement for perceiving the nature around us.

Autumn is my favourite season by far, and I enjoy seeing the fallen leaves in the streets. If I write a haiku about it, I have to expect that the other part would like autumn as much as I do.
Even liking or feeling it with the same intensity, it could have some misinterpretation because maybe a poet is more melancholic regarding 'fallen leaves' but others are more realistic, etc.

I ended up in the conclusion that renga is for real masters of haiku. I am not part of them.

There is another interesting feature: 'haikono'...
A person posts a picture of landscape or places and the rest write a haiku of that photo. This is very nice to do.

"Deconstructing the American Presidential Election with Reference to the Concepts of Lego Bricks and Marmalade." — Baden

I think we will not find a more detailed analysis than yours, honestly. I always knew—and told myself talking to the pillow—that 'el trompas' and Kámala are the same thing, but I didn't want to share this thesis because I was hesitating on whether I dreamt it or not. It is clear that the compulsive hysteria of Trump and emotional fear of Kámala would join together and transform into a new subject. He, she, or 'it' will be the next President of the United States of America.

Is this the end of the US? Will people be able to register to go vote in time? What would happen if they did not mould together finally? There are a lot of answers that only time could answer. Just wait, sitting next to me, son, drinking coffee, and see what happens. People will embrace together, and poppies will flourish again. Time is a circle, not a scary line with no way of turning back.

The Lego brick will be moulded on the mermalade. Never a thick material was that manageable before. The best we could do? Stay away from both of them, rent a red Volkswagen van, and drive in the dawn until we meet the tan-coloured sun. Free as the wind. :sparkle:

Well, at least you don't deny Jesus' existence, and that's enough for me. You can be against religion or what Christianity represents. But I think we all should accept that Jesus of Nazareth was a normal existing person, and this statement is sadly banned by the Church. 

Kazantzakis (as @Tom Storm pointed out) wrote clever paragraphs regarding this, and what could happen in real life rather in the story written in the Gospels.

The film directed by Scorsese is pretty good too. There are a bit of differences with the novel, but this scene blew my mind: Jesus is seeing himself on the cross but randomly disappears, and the cross is there empty, but the crowd is still yelling. A little girl takes the hand of Jesus and says: Leave them alone in their dream. Don't worry. Now, I will show you what really happened with your life...

Jesus is, by some accounts, his son. — Tom Storm

Why does most deity want to be the father of Jesus? I think this is key. Instead of asking, "If you were God, what would you do?" I think it would be more reasonable to ask: "If you were Jesus, what would you do?"

I never heard from Yahweh. I am very unaware of the deities of polytheistic religions. I basically know that Ancient Greece, Egypt, or Rome were polytheistic, and each God was the representation of X or Y.

I may be influenced by Abrahamic monotheistic religion, where the Trinity and God are creators, not destroyers. For this reason, it was a big surprise for me to meet deities that are destructive, although I understand that creation and destruction can be tied to each other.

1.05 — Banno

Wow. So, you were mentioned more than 25K times in TPF. That's crazy.

Mine is 0.8. 4.7K mentions. You mates typed "Javi" 280 times.

Having relatively recently managed to free itself from fascism, political engagement and thinking in the Spanish population is both higher and more mature than the complacency seen in most other countries. — Benkei

If only that would be helpful to reduce the unemployment ratio and increase our salaries...

But I get it, one thing is not tied to another. It is fine to support Gaza in everything we could do, but it is important to understand and be aware of our limitations. I just don't want Pedro to promise Abás (and Palestinian people) things and future scenarios that Spain will not probably be able to fulfill.

Basically, Pedro Sánchez said he promises the full recognition of Palestine as a sovereign state, and he also said that is enough of bloody massacres and this disaster. It is time to have a dialogue between Israel and Palestine with respect and trust between them.

Yes, I know, zero fucks given in the world about what Pedro said today. Abás, you are welcome to my country, but you are knocking on the wrong door, mate. We are not relevant in the Western world. You should ask the UK, Germany, and USA to stop the genocide of Israel in Gaza and the West Bank.

I am angry because Pedro was talking as if he were the President of the United States or something. Mate, we even owe money to NATO because we are not reaching the minimum percentage of military inversion in our budget. I think Abás came here to lose his time, sadly.

https://www.youtube.com/live/-4xHBR8U6Bc?feature=shared

Yeah, Shiva is called The Destroyer. But if I am not wrong, Shiva is one of the main principal deities of Hinduism, and she creates the universe. The nickname seems to be contradictory with the real goodness nature of Shiva. But I don't want to jump into this rabbit hole because my knowledge of Hinduism is very basic. I don't want to post bollocks. :sweat:

I agree. Translations could be a handicap, often. The small written note that I referred to previously also contains a brief suggestion to other Casares' works. It says that The Snow's Perjury is short but beautiful and great. I wish you could find a good translation in English.

The Invention of Morel is on the shelf of my parents house, but I decided to pick The Dream of Heroes instead! Nice to know you liked it. I will put it on my list of future readings. :smile:

A destructive God? Interesting, because most deities are basically otherwise. People believe in God because it creates life and things.

The Dream of Heroes by Adolfo Bioy Casares.

Casares was a good friend of Borges, and I discovered him thanks to the latter. My book has a cute little note written in 1988 by Casares explaining the psychology of his characters. What a gentleman, it is hard to find that connection between the writer and readers nowadays. Two years later, in 1990, Casares won the Miguel de Cervantes Prize.

Do you know who Dr. Phil is? He's pure evil. — T Clark

Yes, when I was in university, Dr. Phil was a main subject of memes and jokes. Well, the American students introduced us to him on campus. Wasn't he the one with the red-haired teen girl, screaming cash me outside or something like that?

No. You're thinking of Franco. — T Clark

We started talking about God and suddenly Franco showed up. Why does this happen all the time in Spain?

¡Ah! Ya te entiendo, ahora he pillado tu ejemplo mejor. :sweat:
Lo peor de todo es que la pregunta en el examen no había contexto ni nada. En fin, a veces estas rarezas ocurren...

Estoy de acuerdo en que un sinónimo puede otorgar un significado diferente a la frase. Pero el problema aquí estribaba en sí era posible encontrar alguno al menos. :rofl:

You know what? I'm definitely going to send Dr. Phil to Spain. — T Clark

Dr. Phil is definitely welcome here; at least he exists, unlike deities like God. I hope Dr. Phil had a fantastic time in Mallorca or Almería. I'll let you know whether he does "guiri" things or not.

I'll try to keep him safe from anti-tourist riots, by the way.

Careful, don't piss God off. Maybe I'll send them to Spain instead. — T Clark

God abandoned us a long time ago...

I'd send anyone who intentionally killed, tortured, seriously hurt, or abused a child to North Korea permanently. — T Clark

Hmm... Perhaps that anyone sees North Korea as an opportunity rather than a punishment. Regarding killers and abusers, we can't really never know.

If you were God, what would you do?

@Benj96

Probably nothing. It is the only way I could keep living in the hopes and desires of believers. Their needed belief that X could happen anytime is what myself – as God – would make me alive.

I hypothesize that the "flaw" in proving God is not necessarily to be focused on God, but rather on the proving, and the idea that our flaws in proving "X" somehow seal the fate of "X". — ENOAH

I agree. Good points and argumentation, ENOAH. :up:

Where outside of the heads of its believers is anything affirmed? — ENOAH

Again, (as I asked yesterday) is that even doable or possible at all?