The fact that you would try to make the comparison while simultaneously ignoring much more obvious examples like the Irish IRA and the Basque ETA (which undoubtedly would be much less suited to support your arguments) tells me all I need to know. — Tzeentch

Americans always ignored the regional and political conflicts of Europe. IRA was suffered by the Irish and fortunately solved by their own way. Basque ETA was only suffered by us. Nobody cared in the world how a terrorist organisation still targeted and killed people because of political issues, even under democracy. Basque ETA members were called heroes under Franco's regime, but it was more painful, violent, and toxic later on, in the 1980s and 1990s. This issue still has consequences today. I wish we did the things right as the Irish and moved on, but no, the scars are not healed yet.

I don't know whether it is comparable or not. Belfast or Bilbao were not oppressed. Some tell the story of resisting a dictatorship. Well, I can accept this point using my country as an example, but Ireland and the UK? They are full democracies. These conflicts started because of nationalism and religion, like Israel-Palestine, yes. But it would be crazy to say that Basque country was oppressed under a democracy because THEY KEPT KILLING EVEN IN MODERN SPAIN, we should forget this.

It could very much be faced with a trolley problem and choose to same the pedestrians over the occupants, but it's not supposed to get into any situation where it comes down to that choice. — noAxioms

Although it is a poor example, as you stated before, imagine for a second—please—that the AI car chose occupants or the driver over pedestrians. This would make a great debate about responsibility. First, should we blame the occupants? It appears that no, we shouldn't, because the car is driven by artificial intelligence. Second, should we blame the programmer then? No! Because artificial intelligence learns on its own! Third, how can we blame the AI?

Imagine that the pedestrian gets killed by the accident. How would the AI be responsible? And if the insurance must be paid, how can the AI assume the fees? Does the AI have income or a budget to face these financial responsibilities? I guess not...

Not that this has nothing to do with AI since it is still people making these sorts of calls. — noAxioms

So, you agree with me that the main responsables here are the people because AI is basically like a shell corporation.

Again, I think you are interpreting The Lounge as a punishment for your posts. I don't see any problem with a thread that is located there. There are even cases where the authors posted their discussions in The Lounge directly. Your post didn't get removed, at least. Don't take it personal.

To the lounge are not moved the threads with not enough room for discussions but the ones that are not substantial in terms of philosophy. Look at the Ukraine Crisis or Donald Trump threads, for instance. They are probably the most active threads so far, yet they are in The Lounge.

I posted 44 discussions since I joined TPF, and some of them are in The Lounge. It is not a big deal. It is fine to discuss threads that are not philosophically deep enough.

This is a responsibility problem. Take self driving cars. If they crash, whose fault is it? Can't punish the AI. Who goes to jail? Driver? Engineer? Token jail-goers employed by Musk? The whole system needs a rethink if machines are to become self-responsible entities. — noAxioms

It will depend upon the legislation of each nation, like always in this complex situation. I don't know where you are from, but in Europe there is a large regulation regarding enterprises and the proxies. Basically, the main person responsible is the administrator. It is true that the stakeholders can get some responsibility as well, but it will be limited to their assets. It is obvious that 'Peugeot' or 'ING Group' will not be locked up in jail because they are abstract entities, but the law focusses on who is the physical person acting and managing in the name of—or by—those entities. Well, this exactly happens to AI. We should establish a line on taken responsibilities until it is too late, or AI will become a heaven for criminals otherwise. By now, AI is very opaque to me, so the points of Benkei are understandable and logic with the aim to avoid a heavy chaos in functionality derived from those programs. I guess those initiatives will only fit in Europe because we still care more about people than merchandise.

With the only exception of @Carlo Roosen. He showed us a perfect artificial superintelligence in his threads. But he misses the responsibility of bad actions by his machine. Maybe Carlo is ready to be responsible on behalf of his invention. This will be hilarious. Locked in jail due to the actions of a robot created by yourself.

The Farewell Waltz by Milan Kundera.

A pure feature of Kundera is his unique ambiguity and unbearable feeling of... everything.

@praxis

I typed the following prompts: "cozy,"  "autumn,"  "rainy," and "ideal for writing poems."

The AI generated houses with candles and lights inside, which I didn't like. I asked to remove them and generate a darker/cloudy ambient. It was impossible for the AI. This machine kept generating houses with lights on inside them. What a waste of money and energy!

By the way, this is the generated house. Looks good, but it is not what I had in mind...

Cool! I wouldn't mind to work or cohabit there either. Is it me or is it similar to Murakami's 'Killing Commendatore' house? I can see myself drinking tea and writing a haiku in your AI-generated building –or duplex–.

No Hitler's paintings but Hokusai's!

Folks, I would not care to live in those buildings generated by artificial intelligence. They look weird and out of perception, like Hitler's paintings but at least they have a ceiling to cover myself in case. I try to use prompts too, and the result is, let's say, unique. I ask for ten stories, but if my maths are not wrong, I only count six:

[/img]

Nor do I think you know what a war crime is. — BitconnectCarlos

I assure you that everyone is very aware of what a war crime is, with the only exception of Netanyahu. Although they are constantly threatening us*, we will keep defending the resistance and using diplomacy—not like Israel—we will try to do the best we could in our limitations and possibilities to end this bloody conflict.

* We are outraged and saddened that Spain has become a paradise to sow hatred and incite to the destruction of Israel.

Masar Badil, an organization linked to terrorist groups such as the PFLP and Samidoun, has chosen Madrid for its annual international congress and the demonstration, set for today, to celebrate the brutal massacre of October 7th.

It is unacceptable that a democratic society allows the glorification of terrorism and the celebration of crimes against humanity perpetrated by Hamas. - Israel Foreign Ministry. Holy cow :yikes:

The pedantic and passionate arguments about grammar, voting, with null points given to a piece not considered a story. And so on. — Amity

Sorrowfully, it was a discussion with which I am not pleased. We both already discussed this issue through PM and I promised it will never happen again (and it won't!).

I thought 1 or 2 points meant poor quality and I admit that criticising the use of Jueves as a female name hurt my feelings a bit. Yet this is the past, and the next contest will be even better (I am talking about my behavior). It is obvious that we will read great stories because the level of writing and imagination here is high and top.

The management of this sensitive situation by the Australian government was—and still is—pretty good. He returned to Camberra, and the government has been respecting his privacy as well as the previous consular assistance. I think that's how a government should act with one of their citizens. I hope he receives the pardon he deserves from the American government. Accusing him of espionage is quite overreacting.

I hardly believe it is a question about greed but revenge. After assassinating 42K Gaza civilians, I don't think their next generations would like to be diplomatic with Israel. As well as Israel wanting to wipe out Beirut and Teheran, the resistance wants to erase Tel-Aviv. 

The Middle East is in a perpetual war zone that benefits a big ass weapon industry.

Netanyahu in his arrogance ignored those warnings and he's been trying to make this crisis worse in an attempt to save face ever since. — Mr Bee

He ignored those warnings, or maybe he deliberately didn't listen to them because he, as a clever warman, saw the perfect opportunity to focus on a conflict with the neighbours rather than having Israelis voice out against his business practices and arrogance.

Even if this was prior to the Iranian missiles, it still shows the benefits of being a wartime prime minister. People will rally to the flag and support the leadership of the country. — ssu

It will take time to know all the truth about October 7th. But given the fact that Israeli intelligence is one of the most advanced in the world, it seems strange the great defensive errors during the attacks of Hamas. So, they can trick the beepers of Hezbollah members, but they cannot prevent a bloody attack by Hamas. Hmm... we will see how responsible for all of this is Netanyahu in the future.

Good summary, thanks.

It is quite blurred all the transfers, and it is not really clear why they asked for personal loans and then the company transferred that amount to Alameda Research. It seems to me that the deposits were not arranged with good faith or intentions. After reading the summary twice, it reminds me a bit of a fiduciary role. Some people put money on FTX or Alamde Research to do some purposes, but it turned out to be a complex, structured relationship where the loans and deposits went to and fro without a clear path to follow. 
 
I can't say whether this is a criminal felony or not. From a civil perspective, it is clear to me that they arranged the money with opaque and obscure intentions, and this is opposed to the law.
 
I now understand why "trusts" are forbidden in my country. They create infinite transfers very difficult to follow. It can only apply to inheritance here.
 

Well, I agree with that. A police officer refusing to do rotas in specific places because of a biassed emotional feeling is not welcomed. You expect police officers (like judges or prosecutors) to be as neutral as possible. Suspicious or not, I bet they are a small part inside the Dutch police, and again they vowed to go on urgency if it is necessary. They will not refuse a call to prevent an attack on a Jewish museum. No way they will do so.

They are opposed to doing rotas but not to going on duty. They claimed this fact in the newspaper. Maybe a reduced portion of police officers are not in the mood of guarding a Jewish museum, but if they receive a call of duty because someone is assaulting the site, they will respond to the call anyway.

I read the link. The Dutch police will still guard and protect Jewish buildings, but some of them will not get very involved or rostered in them. One of the officers claimed that they are allowed to drink and have food inside the buildings, but some of them declined the invitation because of their consciousness or 'feelings' regarding the conflict. Rotas are not a big deal because they vowed to go on duty whether they liked the building or not. If an officer doesn't want to guard a Jewish building, the Dutch police stated that he would be replaced for another officer in the rotas. Simple. I don't see antisemitism by the Dutch police if this was your concern.

With the aim to look for responsibility and responsables, we have to find out how the administrators were. It is true that it depends on the legislation, but in most countries, the admins are the first responsables of the negligence of the company. The stakeholders just respond with their asset, nothing more. So, if she was 'running' the company, it seems she was a stakeholder with a big percentage of assets. The responsibilities inside a company could be complex, and they are usually formed in a complex manner. Well, I don't know how it works there or in the Netherlands (I also tag @Tobias if he can help). Here, our law distinguishes two types of responsibility: the admins are responsible for the done acts by and for the company's name. Stakeholders are responsible just with the money that was put in the assets. 

A "CEO" is not and admin... as much as I can understand Anglo-Saxon companies structures...
Running the company does not equal to manage it in and out of court.

I can certainly see it avoiding oil infrastructure for the reasons you described unless the Israelis really want to humiliate Biden even more. — Mr Bee

If Israelis were smart enough, they wouldn't humiliate any president of the United States. It is not about either rooting for Republicans or Democrats. Without the backing of the White House, they are lost and abandoned in their expansion mission. It is not the accurate time to be choosy, precisely.

War is the main interest of the current Israeli government to cover the corruption and power abuse of Netanyahu. He was lucky with the attack on October 7th. He would be locked up in prison otherwise.

There's no reason why Netanyahu wouldn't attempt to destroy Hezbollah as it has done with the current military organization of Hamas. — ssu

He will attempt to destroy all those groups altogether and reach Beirut or even Teheran. He feels unstoppable due to the unconditional support of a large number of Western countries. Israel always dreamed about a conquest and an expansion. They have now the best opportunity in decades to accomplish their mission.

It's now likely that Israel will strike Iran now. Last time the two warring parties refrained their military actions, but likely this time it will be far more. This will likely escalate. — ssu

I thought the same when I read the post of Manuel in the first place. Everything is escalating very quickly, in my opinion. A few days ago the murder of Nasrallah, now Iran is bombing Israel. Netanyahu said that Israel can get to wherever they want in the Middle East after the missile attack. He is a bellicose man; his adrenaline pops up with this tension, and when everything is crossing the limits.

It's now likely that Israel will strike Iran now. — ssu

Yeah, Israel vows revenge, and they are looking forward to having a face-to-face confrontation with Iran. This is going to get worse. I hope nuclear weapons are not used. By now, only the USA is openly helping Israel, but if this gets serious, we (NATO) must take part in the conflict actively, right?

Well, I am off to bed. I hope Israel has not captured Teheran when I wake up.

It appears to be far bigger than the previous attack in April. It is crazy how the chaos is raging over there (Middle-East). I can't see a calm and peaceful mood in the long term... This will take years, more than expected, maybe.

I thought the same. For this, and other reasons I support the new guidelines for Chat GPT in TPF. People who overrate and overact on this flawed robot make me sick. 

"It will substitute X and that." "Chat GPT will erase public employees." 

People are crazy with this shite (sorry for using mean words).

Evil is not an intrinsic feature of God, but it exists anyway. I think evil people are necessary to see the blessing of God, or put it into practice at least. What we consider 'evil' and 'goodness' is another business. Either we lead to interpret those to a celestial judge, or we interpret it on our own.

Understood. If we take Adam and Eve failed-temptation in a philosophical approach, it appears an interesting dilemma. The serpent tells Eve that eating the apple will not cause death, but she was previously amended by God to not eat the apple because she would die otherwise. What a dilemma! What is better? Take control of the temptation and resist or pass over the rules and try the apple? Interesting... Interesting...

But, sadly, Genesis is not opened to a philosophical interpretation. God is truth, law, and moral. We should obey him because it is the correct way to act. Why did they listen to the serpent then? Humans are a weak animal and a complete failure. They—Adam and Eve—showed that we can't repress our emotions like greed, lust, ambition, disobedience, etc.

Good points and explanation. :up:

The serpent said that you will not die if you eat the fruit. So there was not only the element of greed. There was confusion due to what the serpent said as well. — MoK

Good points from you, too. But I liked to quote that specific phrase of your text with the aim of analysing the following: I guess we agree with the fact that interpreting Genesis is complex because it is full of metaphors and contradictions. You claim that Adam and Eve acted with confusion, I rather think that they acted doing what a large number of people also do: greed (why did they eat the apple when there were other foods?) and disobedience (why do they listen to the serpent when they should have obeyed God blindly?).

It is a metaphor. People always want more than they need and also disobey the authority when they don't need to in most cases.

Knowing that they fall but allowing them to commit evil is evil. — MoK

God didn't allow anything. He just induced Adam and Eve to eat the apple with the aim of tasting if they would resist the greed or not.

You cannot escape the need for identity conditions by focusing solely on relations rather than particulars, because relations are particulars — Pneumenon

I have a question, and sorry for my basic knowledge on this, but I want to learn about this very interesting topic.

My question: according to your points, are you stating that mathematical objects are dependent upon identity conditions rather than structure? If I remove those conditions, the mathematical object doesn't exist?

I'm curious about the fundamental core of each mathematical object's existence.

By whose minds? The clay is strictly related to the statue if it is necessary to be made by the potter. But this is not necessary. Bob can go to another artist, and ask for a marble statue instead. I thought along this thread that the clay is only in the potter's mind.

Holy cow... @Benkei :yikes:

Boris Johnson's secret plot to invade The Netherlands with British forces and seize Covid vaccines

Disgraced and humiliated former Prime Minister Boris Johnson drew up a half-brained secret plot to invade The Netherlands and swipe Covid-19 vaccine supplies, he happily reveals in his ludicrous new memoir.

The brazen ex-PM’s shameless memoir, titled ‘Unleashed’, details just how detached from reality the ludicrous Tory leader had become during one of the worst crises to ever befall the UK. Johnson claims he devised plans for the UK armed forces’ elite units to covertly raid canals in The Netherlands and seize vaccines, following what the bumbling toff claims were months of “futile” negotiations with European Union leaders to release five million Covid jabs.

Poetry in Music? — Amity

Roxy Music - More Than This. :sparkle:

And it is these ignorant people, the most uneducated, the most unimaginative, the most unthinking among us, who would make themselves the guides and leaders of us all — Art48

This thread is basically focused on American folks. Some things, such as Christian nationalists don't exist here and religion split apart from politics a way ago...

Soltad a los perros porque me he escapado.

In an aleatoric process, forms are discovered, not created. Or they're "created" by being discovered and used in new ways. — jkop

I agree. But it is very difficult to find an example where forms are discovered, not created. Maybe it is just our perception when we use the form we already know in different ways. I think it would be difficult for a potter to mould a triangle or cube if he is not aware of these shapes or forms...

Or could he mould it by chance, as it suggests that link? Hmm... interesting. Time to throw a block of clay in my pot, let's see what destiny is preparing for me this Friday.

Yes, I think so. Forms and shapes are observed and processed by us. I mean, the sun is not aware that it is a sphere. Our mind just processed the sun in such a shape. I think this is what happens to Bob. He wants a statue, a form that is only in his mind and desire. The potter is not guilty because he only works with clay.

The Elephant's Journey by José Saramago.

I am back to Saramago. This time, the author tells the story that the King of Portugal gives to Archduke Maximilian an elephant as a wedding present. The elephant's journey starts in Lisbon and has to end in Vienna. If I am not mistaken, @Lionino was part of the journey. I saw him when they crossed Valladolid.

You're saying Bob paid for the form, not the clay. It sounds like you're saying we can separate the two — frank

Exactly.

As you say, the same form can appear with different materials. — frank

Yes, the same statue can be made of marble or even wood. It is all on Bob's taste.

But where is the form if it's separate? In a special realm? In people's minds? — frank

Good questions. I admit that I didn't think that deeply in the form but only in the content because it seemed (at least to me) that clay was key to the statue, and that's not true. I can only say that form is mind-dependent, and I agree with you. This is why I think the material is not relevant. Bob wanted a statue of his beautiful dog (for example). Does it really matter if it is made of clay or marble?

Hmm... Tricky. The role of the potter is more relevant than it appears in the book.

I don't think the statue is really attached to the clay in terms of form and content. Although it is true that Bob went to a potter, a statue can be made of different material, such as marble or gold. Bob expected to receive a form of something, but he received a lump of clay. Bob can easily go to another artist and ask for a marble statue instead. So, no, they are not attached to each other. But what about the artist, so-called the potter? I see a dependent relationship between him and the content but not form. Potters only work with clay, so everything that is put on his hand will be made of it. Then, I think clay is more dependent upon the potter (which is the main cause of the existence of his job) than the statue itself.