Just a quick question - concepts like 'fair' and 'just' are human notions grounded in our values. Do you hold that these categories are not intrinsic to nature but are instead relevant only to our interactions with it? Essentially, fairness and justice are about how we engage with the world, not about the world’s inherent nature.

Yes, this is a common approach in American Christianity. Everything is good because God is good. The end. Interestingly, a recent conversation with a Muslim highlighted a similar perspective. According to them, the world is inherently good and just, and any negatives —like cancer, earthquakes, or famine—are just misinterpretations by humans, not reflections on the goodness of Allah and His creation. This approach is quite effective; dismissing contrary evidence allows the belief to remain intact, much like carefully putting away Grannie's fragile china, which won't get broken if it doesn't interact with the world.

You raise interesting points. For me humans use or exploit any number of fictions and stories to set their values and give direction their choices. Whether it be religion or the Boy Scouts, it seems to me that the flaws inherent in human beings will also be reflected in anything they chose to value.

Some of the most hedonistic and violent criminals I have worked with were devoutly religious - Muslim and Christian. No value system, no matter how drenched in piety or virtue will necessarily support the common good or bring out the best in folks.

Everyone seems to want to distract themselves from the fact that life is hard and punctuated by suffering. Amongst all this pain, social cohesion and mutual support is only possible if large swathes of society share the same values. In this era of pluralism and tribalism, stability is increasingly tenuous as the era of big, shared stories (fictions) which used to bond us are going, going, gone.

Do you see a version of pessimism which can assist us in supporting human beings to promote a more positive culture?

Yes, I know about Plantinga's argument, but it would work against Hoffman's position, not for it, — SophistiCat

I thought that was the point. Maybe I missed something. The idea in the OP that Hoffman’s work is self-refuting.

think what Hoffman is really challenging is ‘cognitive realism’, the instinctive belief that our sensory perception reveals the world as it really is. — Wayfarer

Yes, I think that’s fair.

Alvin Plantinga's rather fun argument called the evolutionary argument against naturalism (EAAN). If it comes up with apologists a lot these days. Here's a basic overview:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evolutionary_argument_against_naturalism#:~:text=Religion%2C%20and%20Naturalism.-,Plantinga%27s%201993%20formulation%20of%20the%20argument,faculties%20is%20low%20or%20inscrutable.

The OP raised this in relation to Hoffman's theory too.

:rofl: Words to live by.

Rome was fantastic and so was True Detective. Yet to see Westworld. Will try to do so.

from the same crack'd bottle ... like all them other hoopleheads down on their fuckin' luck, laughin' and pissin' it all away in that limey cocksucker Swearingen's saloon. :smirk: — 180 Proof

Fuck yeah!

Dan dismantle the titty corner and set up a poker table.

- Al Swearingen

(Depressing fact: the biggest audience I’ve ever had for a piece of writing was on productreviews.com about a domestic appliance.) — Wayfarer

I laughed a lot when I read this. I hear you.

Who can account for personal taste? I love Deadwood (it's very funny too) but I find Shakespeare and the Greeks tedious, and have not enjoyed most of the other 'big' TV series like Sopranos, Breaking Bad, Succession, etc. Well written and performed, but I just don't care about the stories or the characters.

Use your eyes and your ears when crossing the road, and don't step in front of a bus! — unenlightened

Donald Hoffman and I intend to do just that. :wink:

The true nature of reality is that it is naturally real, and what one can say about it can sometimes be really true, and the result of saying really true things about the nature of reality is that it is truth-telling. — unenlightened

Do you understand the true natural of reality and all that is naturally real? Let's hear about it...

Ring-a-ding-ding,

I've concluded that I will not be making a heroic effort to see it. Whatever its literary and dramatic merits - and I gather they are prodigious - it's not my idea of entertainment.

Yes, I know that preferring entertainment over heavy philosophical content is frivolous, but I'm okay with that. — Vera Mont

I think Deadwood works well as entertainment and at a deeper level. But it is violent and pessimistic. In that way, it is not much different to other long form, scrupulously written, television shows. The performances and the script are astonishing.

IMO, much modern philosophy ends up in a sort of Kantian dualism because it's unwilling to challenge dogmatic assumptions stemming for Lockean objectivity and the primacy of "primary properties," reductionism, and the division of the word into subject and object, phenomenal/noumenal. — Count Timothy von Icarus

Yes, that seems to be right. Do you see a way out of this?

The consequences of being run over by a bus on Main Street if we are not looking while we cross remains an ontological danger. It just isn't what we think it is.
— Tom Storm

So what do we think it is, that it isn't? — unenlightened

Well it is a bus, as far as basic human experience is concerned. But is the common sense answer the right one, or the only one?

Given the metaphysics of idealism, the true nature of our reality isn't readily described. Just as the nature of god is said to be ineffable. Wayfarer has certainly gone into this in many threads. He quotes some clues provided by Hoffman himself.

But what does 'not taking it literally' mean? That the train is not really' 'a train'?

He answers:

Q: If snakes aren’t snakes and trains aren’t trains, what are they?

A: Snakes and trains, like the particles of physics, have no objective, observer-independent features. The snake I see is a description created by my sensory system to inform me of the fitness consequences of my actions. Evolution shapes acceptable solutions, not optimal ones. A snake is an acceptable solution to the problem of telling me how to act in a situation. My snakes and trains are my mental representations; your snakes and trains are your mental representations. — Wayfarer

I am not convinced by this model but I do think I would need to do some deeper study before rejecting or accepting it. Could it be that our reality is fundamentally rooted in consciousness alone, with the physical world manifesting as a perceptual construct designed to help us comprehend our existence? Who knows? The big question remains - how does it change anything in my day-to-day life?

'fitness beats truth'. It is that natural selection favors organisms that perceive the world in a way that enhances their survival and reproduction, rather than in a way that accurately depicts objective reality. — Wayfarer

This is an interesting point. A pragmatist might argue that this amounts to a definition of truth anyway- that which is useful for certain purposes (Rorty).

I guess the meaningful quesion that emerges from this position is what the nature of truth might be. The notion of truth like our 'desktop reality' may just be a useful heuristic rather than anything linked to an objective reality or even, dare I say, it a transcendent realm. Thoughts?

I can't recall, does Hoffman hold a 'consciousnesses only' ontology. Looks like it from the above.

I think Lorenz would say it is an image of reality, not a simulation and I think, or at least I think Lorenz thought, that's an important difference — T Clark

I seem to recall that Hoffman uses the terms icon and image too. I may have been unwise to write 'simulation' - Hoffman is not a simulation theory guy as far as I recall.

The problem with all of this material is we seek undertaking in a few paragraphs, when deep study is probably required.

I have a metaphysical prejudice against the idea of objective reality, so I have some sympathy for Hoffman's perspective. — T Clark

I hear you.

I think the problem being outlined is that you cannot take for granted those premises if your theory is demolishing access to anything which could confirm it. I see the issue.. — AmadeusD

Yes, I think many have accused Hoffman of a self-refuting contradiction. As I say he addresses this, but I don't recall exactly what he says.

Hoffman is not a philosopher and doesn't seem to like philosophers. What he doesn't understand: you can't have a first premise (reality exists) and then from this premise prove that the premise is wrong. That's not a valid argument. How can he even ever say again "evolution is true" if all the research into it is based on illusions. His is a self-defeating thesis. — Gregory

Hoffman often addresses this criticism directly in interviews I have seen. He says something like his theory can be measured by its practical utility and explanatory power and not by its correspondence to objective reality. You'd need to look it up.

I guess Hoffman is a kind of epistemological idealist. The real question is how useful is such a theory - it's a bit Kantian - we only see phenomena (the human dashboard or 'interface theory of perception' versus the noumena (the world we don't and can't see).

If accurate, how does this model assist us in dealing with the world? Any ideas? Or is it all just a kind of conceptual metaphysical toy for a certain kind of academic to play with? I guess ultimately Hoffman and his friend Kastrup (and fellow Essentia Foundation member) are saying similar things. Reality is an illusion and consciousness is fundamental.

My eyesight is poor, but I can see truly enough to truly cross a real road without getting extinctified by the truly really real predatory traffic. — unenlightened

Hoffman often likes to say the same kind of thing. The consequences of being run over by a bus on Main Street if we are not looking while we cross remains an ontological danger. It just isn't what we think it is. Evolution has programmed us with a 'dashboard' of sense experiences, a kind of a simulation of reality - this realm still holds risks and threats and rewards and experiences, it's just that we do not see them for what they really are.

Lorenz, on the other hand, explicitly stated that our understanding of the evolution of mind in humans and animals demonstrates that there is an objective reality. — T Clark

I may be wrong but as I understand Hoffman he also acknowledges an objective reality. But he contends that the reality we experience is not that objective reality. According to him, evolution programs us to survive by using practical shortcuts. The reality we perceive with our senses is one of those shortcuts, a vastly simplified version (perception as heuristics) with many gaps.

We learn and grow by doing what Tom Storm described as modifying our ways of interpreting events. Each of us differs in how much emphasis , if any, we place on imperfections that deserve a judgement of blame, and thus provide an opportunity for forgiveness. When it comes to making sense of the imperfections of others, It sounds to me like blame and forgiveness are more useful concepts for you than they are for Tom. — Joshs

Yes, I think this is the case.

:up:

Why should we frame ourselves in this fashion? Is it anything more than a way of thinking that grew out of the Enlightenment and its Romantic reaction? The modern moral economy.

How could we be actually "imperfect in our being", except as some over the top social judgement? Why do we have to be the one that changes to fit the norms rather than thinking strategically about how we can tip the social game-playing in our own favour?

So what I am saying is that you are just uncritically going along with this idea that it really is all on us as individuals to police our behaviour and strive to find that upright citizen apparently lost somewhere in our inner confusions and emotional turmoil.

This is certainly the game that modern society would like you to play. Socially, and nowadays economically. "If you suck at life, you need to pull yourself together and try a hell of a lot harder, sonny boy."

And how can you ever feel forgiven for failing if you are in fact being socially labelled as just innately "a failure"?

Of course, traditional societies can be far more constraining on the self even if everyone realises that they are just following the cultural norms. Putting on the required masks.

And the modern world can be lived in a guilt-free and openly negotiated fashion. If we live in families or societies that can own up to their mistakes and roll with them, then forgiveness gets easier in both directions.

It becomes the smoothly flowing economy of debts incurred and debts paid. Messages received and new attitudes promised on both sides of the equation. — apokrisis

My point was far more modest than all this. I was essentially saying (in relation to the OP) that it may be useful to recognize that we make mistakes and therefore not blame ourselves when we do. Naturally we can do the same for others.

I don't know much about forgiveness or what it means. Which is why I asked you about it earlier.

I think "to love" is as good as "forgive" but does something closer to what Tom Storm is getting at. — AmadeusD

Could be.

I think forgiveness has far more to do with dealing with your reaction to an event, than it has to do with your thoughts on the actor. — AmadeusD

Yes, that sounds like a useful frame.

How do you define forgiveness and can you describe why it is important?

Your posts make me think you do not understand forgiveness, — Leontiskos

Could well be.

You say, "Sorry, I will pay for the damages." I say, "Don't worry about it."

That is an instance of forgiveness. You did something wrong and thereby incurred a debt, and then the debt was forgiven. That's forgiveness. — Leontiskos

As I say, I am not a big fan of the term forgiveness. In relation to the OP I would suggest that the issue is more likely to be one of needing a new way viewing oneself rather than needing to forgive. If we recognize that we are imperfect beings who sometimes make mistakes and inadequate choices, we can roll with challenges and mistakes more readily and improve our approach.

Is self blame harmful? Should one do it? and if one does it then the next obvious step must be to forgive yourself. — Nimish

Depends what you did and why. I'm not a big fan of 'forgiveness' as such - it often has a Christian flavour to it. I'm more of a fan of contextualising what has happened and understanding one's own behaviour to be the product of situational factors. This allows for understanding rather than forgiving - whatever that means. Understanding gives you the option of doing 'better' next time. Is there a connection for you between forgiveness and personal responsibility? Assuming responsibility and changing one's behavior in the future can be more beneficial than merely assigning blame, which often amounts to a passive judgment.

OK. So, why did Deadwood, in particular, come to mind as a possibility? — Amity

Because with great subtlety and majestic darkness it explores fate, human suffering, moral dilemmas, loss and characters with fatal flaws.

Perhaps the educators didn't inspire - or just not to your taste. — Amity

Personal taste, I'd say. I've had decades years of attending the theatre and reading which hasn't changed my perspective.

Curious as to the question and response. Tom, what made you ask? — Amity

I was wondering what tragedy looked like outside of the classical canon. Despite receiving a somewhat classical education (Shakespeare/Marlowe/Sophocles/Euripedes) I have no great love of the tradition.

:up:

Would you consider Deadwood as an example of a modern tragedy?

What do you guys think? — moo

I never shake hands with anyone.

Heh, heh, why Tom Storm, what are you suggesting? — Constance

I was simply making the throwaway point that contemplating the priesthood does not in itself mean much.

There are two Wittgensteins: — Constance

At least two. I have read the Monk biography.

You know, he once confessed a desire to becoming a priest. — Constance

So did Stalin.

(The latter actually made it to the seminary but was booted out)

You have a poet's way with language. :pray:

Apparently this is hard to see, as is made clear by all of the Wittgenstein fans at this forum, who entirely fail to understand this basic point: ethics and value are transcendental. — Constance

Isn't the problem here that later Witt had a different approach and framed morality in the context of language games? My understanding is that latter Wittgenstein holds that morality is not transcendent but is rather a product of contingent human practices. But I am no Witt expert. I think @Joshs might come closest.

Admittedly, his somewhat Idealistic worldview seems, not just ambiguous but dead wrong, to those who are committed to a worldview of Materialism and Scientism. That's the ambiguity of opposing perspectives on reality. Is that where you are coming from? :smile: — Gnomon

Scientism and materialism don't seem very popular on this site and I would be hard pressed to recall members here who identify this way. Can you name any?

People who find idealism dead wrong also include Christians, Muslims and other theists who are far from sympathetic to science or to materialism.

Personally I would not say ontological idealism is 'dead wrong'. How can we demonstrate such a claim? I would say that the hypothesis makes no practical difference to how I conduct my life. That said, I am sympathetic to epistemological idealism in as much as we can argue that the reality we know is likely to be the product of our mental and cognitive structures and frameworks - a more Kantian approach, perhaps. I am skeptical of the notion that there is a capital R reality which we can uncover. Reality seems to have replaced God as a subject of transcendental hope.

And yet we revel in the cultural renderings of it: expensive funerals, Hallowe'en, silly movies and tv serials about undertakers, zombies, etc; scary movies about war, serial killers and random violent events — Vera Mont

All of which have more to do with 'entertainment' than death itself. I think you're right about attempting to view it at a distance. Nice frame.

What is your opinion on these things? Am I right in believing that in the contemporary world our brains are less tuned towards the fear of death? — Eros1982

In some ways modern Westerners fear death more because it is no longer something we see around us in daily life. Death has become medicalized and abstracted and hidden. We tend to suppress the subject of death. We try not to think about it. We don't even like using the world. People don't die. They 'pass'. This renders death taboo and very powerful. Perhaps one of our culture's last taboos.

Misogyny is not simply hatred of women. When an Ancient Greek man said I'm glad to be born a Greek, a man and not a woman, that is a brand of misogyny. — isomorph

The only part of this that qualifies as mysogyny is the last bit pertaining to women. The first part is ethnocentrism. The quote is a layer cake of bigotry.

I find this curious. Does this mean a person in a wheelchair is by definition less than fully human? A blind person?
— Tom Storm

That's exactly what I'm not saying, and what I said can't be construed in that way. — isomorph

Ok - apologies - your syntax was unclear but I've re-read it a few times now and I see what you were getting at.

There are a collection of traits that may be expressed differently in individuals, so to define an essence ( for instance running is an essence of being human, some people can't run so they are less human) is to create second class citizens. — isomorph

Essentialism (if applied to human nature) is the notion that there are inherent and unchanging human characteristics and behaviours - innate and fixed. I'm skeptical about this or how far this can be pushed. Perhaps we agree on this.

Worth reading, would you say? — Jamal

Yes. Even if it's just for the curiosity factor. I read the Arthur Waley translation from the 1940's. There may be better versions.