Even if I concede the point that Bernie is not a Stalin socialist but more like a Mr. Rogers socialist, I would not change a word of what I wrote. Because Bernie has many followers who ARE Stalin socialists or worse. The #CancelCulture out there is like Chairman Mao's cultural revolution, complete with public shaming sessions. struggle sessions, they use to call them. The far left scares the shit out of me lately and they're all way into Bernie. — fishfry

Bernie's weakest point is his most fundamentalist supporters.

Biden will be a disaster of course as a candidate but these results are certainly interesting. A big Bernie win was predicted but instead the Dems got Amy and Pete to quit and endorse Bernie and all the Dem voters fell into line. Rarely if ever have the Dems been this organized recently. — fishfry

Actually thanks to Trump, Americans can believe that they can make a change to their party by participating in the primaries. Yet normally political parties usually have a leadership which decides on the candidates.

If (when) Biden gets the candidacy, will Bernie supporters go and vote for him? Got to stir up that Trump hatred!

Most of the Western world has those policies and has no problems paying for them. There's nothing unrealistic about them. — Benkei

The US is different in many ways, Benkei.

Interesting post with some thought put into it. Thanks. — 0 thru 9

Thank you! Tell that to my many critics ...

But getting to the fine print... Ok, fair enough. You either don’t think Bernie can win, or if the unthinkable happened, it would be like having a former Hippie as president, throwing dollar bills and big doobies (marijuana) out of the Federal Reserve window to his crazed, brainwashed snowflaky fans. With Bob Dylan and the remnants of the Grateful Dead (including some holy relics from Jerry Garcia), Snoop Dogg with a reformed Public Enemy, performing a free concert on the White House lawn in some bizarre combination of Woodstock and the March on Washington. Bernie is inaugurated wearing a tie-dyed shirt, with Noam Chomsky standing next to him. (Ok, maybe that is going too far for a joke, lol. Anyway...) — 0 thru 9

Ok no totally I would love that. It's his Marxism not his hippiedom. I wasn't an official hipped but I certainly identified with them. And we were all against the war. I marched on Washington. I loved the hell out of this paragraph. You reached right into my forgotten past and hit the nail on just about every point. I saw Chomsky speak against the war. I love the crazed hippie president image. I'm imagining Bernie as Fat Freddy from the Fabulous Furry Freak Brothers. I was so into those comics. If Bernie was promising an actual return to the hippie ethos I'd put on my tie-tie and beads and sign up for the whole program.

You are not a “democratic socialist”. That is fine. Yes, obviously Bernie calls himself that. And his opponents do also, but use “scare quotes”, make clucking noises of disapproval, and warn of dire consequences. — 0 thru 9

Even if I concede the poin[ that Bernie is not a Stalin socialist but more like a Mr. Rogers socialist, I would not change a word of what I wrote. Because Bernie has many followers who ARE Stalin socialists or worse. The #CancelCulture out there is like Chairman Mao's cultural revolution, complete with public shaming sessions. struggle sessions, they use to call them. The far left scares the shit out of me lately and they're all way into Bernie.

We have all seen the juicy sound bites. (Though I’m not sure what exactly these terms are supposed to mean anymore. I know in general what they are intended to mean. But words, labels, ideologies, and especially political philosophies have been ever so slowly drained of whatever meaning they once had. It all seems to be advertising, propaganda, and personal branding. Like how Christianity has somehow mutated into an apologist for the war machine. Oh pardon me, “national defense system”. Anyway, please excuse this tangential philosophical point). — 0 thru 9

Bernie has a lengthy track record of making statements in support of the most appalling regimes. I'm taking the man at his word and you want me make excuses for him. I'm not buying that.

But whatever other valid points you make, it is an extreme exaggeration to say Sanders “wants to destroy” the whole system. — 0 thru 9

His plans would double the annual spending of the Federal government. Doing that would blow up the world's economy. Now we could be here all night arguing THAT particular claim, but it's what I believe and you should take that for an indication of where I'm coming from. If someone did have that belief, then it would be rational for them to say that Bernie is going to blow up the country's economy -- even if you disagree with the premise. Fair?

Come on now. Let’s be fair. That is practically calling him a communist, or something worse, but without the directness to do so openly. — 0 thru 9

It was Bloomie who called Bernie a Communist. I'm not calling Bernie names. I'm pointing out that his policies, as outlined on his website, would blow up the US economy and almost certainly take the rest of the world economy with it. That is my considered opinion. I'm not calling anyone names. I like Bernie as a person. Wish he'd hit Hillary harder on the emails in 2016, he could have been president. He would have beaten Trump then. Not now, unless there's a huge economic crash -- which could happen.

Because it is a totally unfounded cheap shot, either implied or explicit. Like calling Sanders “ignorant”. Ok, sure.. Par for the course in an election campaign, “sticks and stones”, etc. Hyperbole and humor. I do it too. (Like this silliness for example. Trump’s new slogan: “Four more years! Let’s Have Another Orangasm!” :snicker: Although come to think of it, Joe Biden has been looking a little orange lately. Is there a tariff-caused shortage of natural-looking makeup for men? Bernie is pale and proud, lol). — 0 thru 9

It is not a cheap shot. It's my informed opinion having glanced at Bernie's plan on his website, and verified in several different places that he will double the annual spending of the federal government. If anyone did that there are certain disastrous economic consequences that would follow. I don't want to spend time arguing this particular point. I'd like you to acknowledge that this is my opinion, and agree to the validity of the argument that IF I believe as I do, THEN it is rational for me to state that Bernie would destroy the world economy virtually overnight.

There are no personal attacks or cheap shots whatever in my comments.

But most observers can see these type of ploys as a desperate attempt to trip up the runner who is 50 yards ahead of everybody in this preliminary track meet. Tackling is not officially allowed in a foot race. Just because it happens and often goes unpunished, doesn’t mean nobody notices or cares. Ok, maybe this is just some sideline forum of internet opinion, mixed with some occasional philosophical insight. But if one wants to stand on their words, they have to have some kind of rational foundation. (Or even a relatively honest emotional one. That is acceptable, if expressed fairly. Emotions are part of who we are, of course). — 0 thru 9

I hope I have outlined my rational foundation with sufficient clarity. It is as follows:

P1: Bernie's own detailed plan on his website would, according to most fair observers, would double the annual spending of the federal government.

P2. That would be a Very Bad Thing; for reasons I don't feel like enumerating because it would amount to spending the time to boil down my thoughts and draft a good response and I don't want to do that at the moment. So I ask you to simply accept that I believe doubling spending is a Very Bad Thing.

C: Therefore electing Bernie would be a Very Bad Thing.

I hope, as I've tried to explain, that if you accept that if I hold P2, then it's valid to conclude C. Even if you disagree about P2. I hope you regard this as an exercise in rationality. In fact you may be confusing me with other people, because I've never disparaged Bernie personally. I really like the crazy old coot. I just don't want him to be president.

Now look... (Just kidding. Don’t you hate when debaters start with that bossy-sounding introduction? It’s like... LOOK... (pregnant pause... either signifying depth of thought, or perhaps an unspoken insult. Such as: LOOK... ya big goofball etc... Almost as bad is someone saying “LISTEN... blah blah...” I’m waiting for the first debater to go all in with “LOOK... LISTEN... and LEARN...” ) Sorry for the rant. — 0 thru 9

Did not follow that para.

Anyway, I am disillusioned (or perhaps “realistic”) about the Democratic Party. — 0 thru 9

It's hard not to be. Over the years they've lost their moral center and what we see today is the end result. At least I hope it's the end, if they get any worse they'll have to be designated a terrorist organization. [That's hyperbole for the purpose of intended humor; not a point on which you need to accuse me of name calling].

(I refuse to say I’m “woke”. Nor am I a “Bernie Bro”. Nor any other kind of “bro”. Buzzwords are as annoying as flies). But I had hopes for the Obama presidency. I thirstily sipped the Kool-aid, but only a little. I thought maybe, somehow he would understand, hoped he would care, figured he would at least try to make some little thing fairer. — 0 thru 9

As a symbol he was revolutionary and much needed. As a president, his greatest trick was to convince people he was a leftist. His foreign policy was Bush's 3rd and 4th term. Instead of apologizing for and prosecuting Bush's torture regime, he institutionalized it. He had many many scandals but gets away by saying he was scandal-free because the medial lets him get away with it. He had his foot on the brake of the economy. Trump's economy would have been Obama's if Obama had a clue.

Great symbol, so-so president. I liked his no-drama approach, we all prefer that over Trump's bombast.

Maybe he was slightly better than the alternative. — 0 thru 9

Oh no. McCain would have blown up the world. I am not on Team McCain, all the people who want to make a saint out a corrupt warmonger. Between Obama and McCain I'd take Obama 100 times out of 100, even in hindsight. All in all Obama was a pretty good president but he had a lot of flaws that his defenders don't admit, and the reaction to his flaws led to Trump.

Maybe the Middle East would have exploded with 4 more years of Neo-Con meddling (and that’s putting it very politely). Maybe not. What do I know? Very little probably. My point is that the Democratic Party (which is neither democratic, nor much of a party) is NOT “liberalism” or even “the left wing” in its entirety. Not even close. The two-party system is an effective monopoly, a good cop/bad cop routine. Two sides of the same coin. They speak for no one except themselves mostly. — 0 thru 9

On that we agree wholeheartedly. I hate partisanship. I believe the worst the Dems say about the GOPs and the worst the GOPs say about the Dems. I hate both parties. They both deserve to die.

In fact that's why we had a Trumpian populist insurgency in 2016 and now a Bernie populist insurgency in 2020. The centrist consensus isn't working and people are starting to notice.

And this week we see the establishment fighting back ... with Joe Biden? This senile and corrupt warmongering, civil-liberties-hating, tool of the banking industry? Do people even know who Joe Biden is? You can be sure Trump will remind us.

If Bernie were any more independent, he’d be on the sidelines with the rest of us. If he were any less independent, he’d be another gravy train rider looking for the path of least resistance. He definitely is NOT Frodo Baggins trying to destroy the evil Ring, nor Luke Skywalker trying to blow up the Death Star. He is not even trying to “level the playing field”... whatever that means. There is no playing field. There is a pyramid and a ladder, with those at the top of it pouring boiling oil on those below. Maybe at one time, the middle-class dreamed that there was room for more at the top of the pyramid, but there never was. Not a pretty picture. At best, Bernie Sanders SEEMS to be TRYING to go in a new direction that is at least a little tiny bit fairer for most people. I’ll take that chance, and hold him to his wager. — 0 thru 9

You're right. Bernie's just an old leftist who's been spouting the same slogans for 40 years and finally the country has become ripe for his message. He's more of a symbol than an individual for his followers. But what a character ... there's something about him, the crazy old uncle with the hair and the hands waving and the delivery and the cadence ... he's got his act down really well. He's actually a very effective speaker. Like I say, I like the guy. Just not his ideas.

The casino has stacked the odds against us, and rigged the slot machines. Even the glittering showgirls are picking our pockets. Now it seems the only way to win... is to leave. — 0 thru 9

If by that you mean that this country's going down, sooner rather than later, there's a good chance. The spending and the stupidity on both sides are out of control, probably past the tipping point.

I think the tl;dr is that you think doubling federal spending is a good idea and I think it will be the end of civilization as we know it. Or perhaps you disagree with that number. That also could explain our difference of opinion. It actually comes down to this point I think.