But you might follow it up with one. In fact it might be expected and desired. And still with no verbal confirmation. — jamalrob

No. I don't force a woman into a position that she might not want. I just present the opportunity. So hold out my hand rather than just take hers; ask her if she wants to kiss me rather than just try to kiss her. And, of course, don't take a dance as an invitation to cop a feel.

(I don't care if you wouldn't do it yourself; I'm pointing out that people and situations differ)

That doesn't mean it's the right thing to do. The point of the #MeToo movement is that this shouldn't be accepted as the norm. Yes, there are times where people might be receptive to it, but given how often people aren't receptive to it and the fact that it's worse to be harassed than to be left waiting for someone else to make the first move, it's proper to err on the side of caution.

I think if your risky "advance" is some sort of sexual touching then you're doing it wrong. Is it so hard to ask/wait for verbal confirmation? — Michael

As in "can we now has sex?" as If that's how it ever happens. When did verbal communication become more reliable than any other form? A robotic "yes, have sex with me" response is less convincing than her physical expressions may be. I'd find it more troubling if she signed a consent form than if she didn't.

But you might follow it up with one. In fact it might be expected and desired. And still with no verbal confirmation. (I don't care if you wouldn't do it yourself; I'm pointing out that people and situations differ)

Holding out my hand isn't a sexual touching "advance".

I think if your risky "advance" is some sort of sexual touching then you're doing it wrong. Is it so hard to ask/wait for verbal confirmation? — Michael

I look her in the eyes, smile, hold out my hand, and see if she takes it. — Michael

So, no verbal confirmation?

I'm not sure I want to give you the example you're looking for, because I don't want to stray from my point, which is that all of this "it's really quite simple" stuff forecloses on the possibilities to the detriment of sexual interaction, and what we tolerate in terms of physical contact and flirtation differs from person to person. Your comments express a wish to impose a regime of flirtation that you believe is the only permissible one. I was pointing out that it's not always easy, and in some of those cases it is worth trying (for both parties, obviously).

Just so we get a good idea because I might not be "manly" enough — Benkei

Note that it's not really--or not only--about "manliness", because what I'm saying goes both ways.

So yeah, I admit I'm reluctant to give an example. You go first...

It is indeed and should be a social restriction on how a lot men behave towards women because women don't want to be treated that way. They can't be much clearer about that than they have been recently. — Benkei

Treated what way? And who is "they"? All women? And note that I'm not arguing against the metoo movement as such, but with some of the attitudes that have come out of it, from some campaigners and commentators.

Well, that's not true for all women. I mean, you'd be hardpressed to show that there are no women out there who like to be objectified for example. I've met some, and they will outright tell you that they have no problem with that, and they even desire it. — Agustino

Sure, and there are people out there who like BDSM. But you don't use that to try to justify acting on the assumption that maybe the person you're with likes that sort of thing.

Now, obviously I disagree with such treatments of women for religious & moral reasons, but it doesn't mean that they're not present in society.

That's what the #MeToo movement is drawing attention to.

Good luck trying to convince your average guy in the Western world not to pat a woman's bottom in what they take to be the "right" social settings.

That's what the #MeToo movement is trying to do. It might be futile (or it might not), but it's an admirable effort all the same.

It is indeed and should be a social restriction on how a lot men behave towards women because women don't want to be treated that way. — Benkei

Well, that's not true for all women. I mean, you'd be hardpressed to show that there are no women out there who like to be objectified for example. I've met some, and they will outright tell you that they have no problem with that, and they even desire it.

Now, obviously I disagree with such treatments of women for religious & moral reasons, but it doesn't mean that they're not present in society. Good luck trying to convince your average guy in the Western world not to pat a woman's bottom in what they take to be the "right" social settings.

Because you're all dying to know, the (old) Way of Michael when at a club: if I see a girl I'm attracted to on the dance floor I don't just walk up to her and start groping or grinding against her. I look her in the eyes, smile, hold out my hand, and see if she takes it. No sexual harassment, no having to "read between the lines", no "impoverishment of sexual interaction and a degradation of individual autonomy".

This. Although one time I had sparks flying so hard after about 30 minutes that dinner was just an excuse to avoid kissing then and there. Good times. :D

The problem with these sentiments, which I've seen all over the place recently, is that they don't take account of the richness of life. Thus they amount to an acceptance of new social restrictions surrounding sex, an impoverishment of sexual interaction and a degradation of individual autonomy, decades after the freedoms gained in the sexual liberation of the sixties.

Everyone is different, and even if you're good at reading signals, still sometimes it is hard to know if your advance will be welcome or not. Sometimes you do have to take risks.

But sometimes people want to be treated like that. Sometimes people want to be conquered and used. People play games. It's part of the fun, and inevitably it will often misfire. But it's ok to make a mistake; it becomes harassment only if you keep on doing it, and that's where respect comes in.[ — jamalrob

It is indeed and should be a social restriction on how a lot men behave towards women because women don't want to be treated that way. They can't be much clearer about that than they have been recently. That isn't a problem. That's a solution to the problem.

Can you perhaps give a clear example of what sort of behaviour you think men are afraid to show that will be a problematic restriction on sex, impoverishment of sexual interaction or degradation of autonomy? Just so we get a good idea because I might not be "manly" enough to think of it since I don't see whatever it is you seem to be alluding to.

Everyone is different, and even if you're good at reading signals, still sometimes it is hard to know if your advance will be welcome or not. Sometimes you do have to take risks. — jamalrob

I think if your risky "advance" is some sort of sexual touching then you're doing it wrong. Is it so hard to ask/wait for verbal confirmation?

The solution is really quite simple. You should pay attention to the person you're interested in and read their actions and hear their words. I've misread flirtation in the past but that became clear before I even touched her. It really isn't that hard and I'm not even good at reading people or moods. That fact makes the problem even more egregious as it takes very little effort to avoid this shit. — Benkei

The problem with these sentiments, which I've seen all over the place recently, is that they don't take account of the richness of life. Thus they amount to an acceptance of new social restrictions surrounding sex, an impoverishment of sexual interaction and a degradation of individual autonomy, decades after the freedoms gained in the sexual liberation of the sixties.

Everyone is different, and even if you're good at reading signals, still sometimes it is hard to know if your advance will be welcome or not. Sometimes you do have to take risks.

It really boils down to respecting people instead of seeing them as objects to conquer or use. — Benkei

But sometimes people want to be treated like that. Sometimes people want to be conquered and used. People play games. It's part of the fun, and inevitably it will often misfire. But it's ok to make a mistake; it becomes harassment only if you keep on doing it, and that's where respect comes in.

Here's the deal - society is hypocritical. If grabbing isn't okay, then it should never be okay, not in some circumstances okay, and in others not okay. There are situations in society when such behaviours are even expected - and that's a problem when you're trying to say that society shouldn't consider it acceptable because you must also eliminate those situations. I mean, if you go in a nightclub in a developed country like the UK, I can guarantee you, 100%, that there will be a lot of unsolicited grabbing going around. What do you do about that? — Agustino

Currently a lot of people don't know what unwanted sexual advances are and I think the me2-movement is great for awareness, which is a start. The solution is really quite simple. You should pay attention to the person you're interested in and read their actions and hear their words. I've misread flirtation in the past but that became clear before I even touched her. It really isn't that hard and I'm not even good at reading people or moods. That fact makes the problem even more egregious as it takes very little effort to avoid this shit. It really boils down to respecting people instead of seeing them as objects to conquer or use.

Can I not be a gentleman hedonist? — Michael

This is oddly logical.

A feature of the #me2 movement is that they are unwilling to distinguish between a pat on a woman's derriere and rape. The former can not be worse than annoying, — Bitter Crank

Jesus fucking Christ what the hell is wrong with you that you think this is an acceptable statement to ever make? Of course it could be worse than annoying.

For fuck's sake what the hell is wrong with this fucking planet that this is even in question?

I doubt these me2-people are unable to tell the difference between rape and unwanted sexual advances. — Benkei

Matt Damon would beg to differ, lol.

Woman versus man physical aggression is less threatening than the opposite because the man wins that fight 99% of the time. The other 1% ends in a tie that must be decided by lot.

It's not the slap that's the problem but the society that considers this acceptable. It shouldn't be. So it's all commentary on those social norms and the acts being an expression of that aren't really the issue here. — Benkei

Here's the deal - society is hypocritical. If grabbing isn't okay, then it should never be okay, not in some circumstances okay, and in others not okay. There are situations in society when such behaviours are even expected - and that's a problem when you're trying to say that society shouldn't consider it acceptable because you must also eliminate those situations. I mean, if you go in a nightclub in a developed country like the UK, I can guarantee you, 100%, that there will be a lot of unsolicited grabbing going around. What do you do about that? Because people even expect it to happen in such places.

Almost no one would think to slap a guy's ass (ok, ok, I'm telling the wrong guy now, but on average!) — Benkei

Oh? One of my female teachers did that, and I was even underage back then.

A feature of the #me2 movement is that they are unwilling to distinguish between a pat on a woman's derriere and rape. The former can not be worse than annoying, and has nothing in common with the latter. — Bitter Crank

I doubt these me2-people are unable to tell the difference between rape and unwanted sexual advances. So I suspect you misunderstand the movement. One possible view is that both stem from the fact that society has for too long relegated women to second class citizens. Almost no one would think to slap a guy's ass (ok, ok, I'm telling the wrong guy now, but on average!)

It's not the slap that's the problem but the society that considers this acceptable. It shouldn't be. So it's all commentary on those social norms and the acts being an expression of that aren't really the issue here.

A feature of the #me2 movement is that they are unwilling to distinguish between a pat on a woman's derriere and rape. — Bitter Crank

Well this seems like a strawman. Saying that both are wrong isn't to be unwilling to draw a distinction.

"It's not rape, therefore it's OK" is obviously a non sequitur.

Hmmm, I stand corrected.



Some attempted groping at a party give this guy PTSD?

In this particular case, we should take into account the deep pockets and pending lawsuits, I think.

But sexual advances, wanted and unwanted, are an ordinary part of life and not in themselves bad, regrettable or traumatic. — jamalrob

They are a part of life, and people with normal cognitive processing are able to distinguish between "a sexual advance", wanted or unwanted, and rape.



A feature of the #me2 movement is that they are unwilling to distinguish between a pat on a woman's derriere and rape. The former can not be worse than annoying, and has nothing in common with the latter. Similarly, verbal requests for sex are not the same as rape. By collapsing all undesired sexual suggestion, touching, innuendo, humor, and so on into "assault" along with forced sodomy and rape, and then "catastrophizing" a joke of which a woman might disapprove, #metoo has created a movement which will burn out on flimsy grievances.

Yeah, well, you just have to be careful and not drop the soap.

Which is why I don't find "the thought of a hetero dude on the #MeToo list ... a bit funny."

Obviously actual assault isn't funny. Actual.

?

Straight men can be victims of assault to, and it's not something to laugh about. — Michael

Jelly.

You have to admit the thought of a hetero dude on the #MeToo list is a bit funny. — praxis

No, I don't think it is. Straight men can be victims of assault to, and it's not something to laugh about.