I'm not against you in principle by the way, Agu. In fact, I'm on your side but you are not demonstrating how power and desire won't work to achieve their goals in sexual beings such as we are.

EDIT: Cross posted. I'll read your latest then.

But this seems laughable. As if those in power won't still be sexually corrupt. — Baden

First of all, they won't be sexually corrupt if their culture wouldn't have taught them that being sexually corrupt confers high status and is really something to be desired so long as you're not caught. That's what their culture teaches them, they're just emulating. Second of all, yes, presumably the first who get in power and implement those changes would have escaped from the conditioning of their society. You could say that that's wishful thinking, but that's the idea.

I fail to understand that. The left is of course eager to attack Trump. The question is why the left gives Bill Clinton a pass. — fishfry

And Baden's answer is that the left gives Bill a pass because the right gives Trump a pass - retroactive justification >:)

The same reason the right gives Trump a pass. Political partisanship. I already explained that.

But this seems laughable. As if those in power won't still be sexually corrupt.

I came to the conversation this time to raise the example of Trump in order to answer fishfry's question. — Baden

I fail to understand that. The left is of course eager to attack Trump. The question is why the left gives Bill Clinton a pass.

A famous illustration is this quote from liberal writer Nina Burleigh regarding the Monica Lewinsky affair:

I would be happy to give him a blowjob just to thank him for keeping abortion legal. I think American women should be lining up with their Presidential kneepads on to show their gratitude for keeping the theocracy off our backs

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nina_Burleigh

You see my point?

Not at all. I think @unenlightened was more taking that position, but of course he can speak for himself. I came to the conversation this time to raise the example of Trump in order to answer fishfry's question.

You refute yourself. Hollywood becomes irrelevant. The behaviour remains regardless. If it's not one cultural stimuli, it's another. So what then? — Baden

*facepalm* :-}

Right, if it's not Hollywood, then something else will control our culture, whether it's Plato's poets, or whatever. That isn't of much importance. What matters is that we have to grab control of this element of society that manufactures culture, just as Plato suggested in the Republic, and make sure that elements don't appear in the "myths" (or stories we're told by our society) that show that immorality is a cool thing to do. For example, that's why Plato complained about the Greek poets - they showed the gods as being immoral, so it passed through society and men became immoral as well, because why not, the gods did it first!

I have two sisters... I think you're just imagining what kind of monster would do that. I of course am not saying force, or rape or anything. You'd basically saying that every relationship that is at all based in incentives of status or wealth, or just non-monogamous ones are evil or something... Just for love and life, or straight to hell?

You refute yourself. Hollywood becomes irrelevant. The behaviour remains regardless. If it's not one cultural stimulus, it's another. So what then?

Haha. You know if I didn't have sisters I think I really would be a worse person.

Yes, but in my view you tend to overestimate their influence and underestimate our natural tendency towards "evil" or "sin", or whatever you want to call it, in the sexual arena. — Baden

I'm not so sure that the natural tendency is clearly towards "sin" and "evil". I think we are corrupted by society to large extents - when society decides on what we should expect, and then creates hope and fear in us, it makes us irrational and immoral. For example, if I expect not to marry my high school girlfriend, then obviously I won't take my relationship with her too seriously - nor would I want to get too close for fear that it will be more painful to separate later on. Then because of that, I will actually make it into a self-fulfilling prophecy by changing the way I behave, motivated by hope and fear, based on expectations and desires that aren't even mine in the first place, that are actually imported from my society.

Non-sequitur. — Baden

How is it a non-sequitur if your desire being turned on by high heels is shown to be a product of your society? Then no wonder that Atilla the Hun didn't need high heels to turn him on - he had other objects/features that turned him on, as his society taught him. Clearly this shows that even in the example that you gave, you don't refute me, but merely prove my point.

I also mentioned like hollywood star level hot, man.

Damn you. That's gerrymandering.

OK, I was able to do it and didn't.

I excluded teacher and student positions.

Hollywood is a correlate not a cause in my view. The cause is deeper. With or without Hollywood, power will have its way. — Baden

I was talking about this, and I clarified some with my subsequent post. I simply don't believe people when they say that they're immune to such things unless they've already been able to do it, and then didn't.

Yes, and some of us have actual experience of being in that situation as I have.

I don't know what you think I said to be honest, Wos. You need to quote me. If you think HW was some kind of victim of his position though, no, I disagree. But go ahead and clarify.

I know that I definitely never use my riches and influence to get laid. Never.

A lot of things people freak out about reduces to them never having been in a position to do it, rather than just not doing it out of their virtue.

Non-sequitur.

. But in our society, culture is dictated by Hollywood - manufacturing culture is what they do. — Agustino

Yes, but in my view you tend to overestimate their influence and underestimate our natural tendency towards "evil" or "sin", or whatever you want to call it, in the sexual arena.

In fact, your retort is laughable precisely because there's nothing about high heels that is supposed to turn you on - this is manufactured by your society.

If I was like in an important producer position, and totally could just give roles to anyone, without breaking any laws, and like some of the hottest women in the world were rubbing elbows, and other things, then it would be difficult to resist that. I don't imagine a caricature of some snarling goblin being all...



I'm not made of stone. Clearly forcing someone, or being cruel or sadistic is always wrong, but suggesting that people can't use their riches and influence to get laid at all is silly.

Did Attila the Hun need high heels to turn him on. Give me a break. — Baden

No, but you can bet that his society taught him that a real man forces himself on as many women as he can. Even the Greeks and the likes of Alexander the Great were taught that the more women you have, the greater you are as a man.

Meaning that human sexuality is 99% not biological. — Agustino

Non-sequitur. Time to get out your references.

Hollywood manufactures desire. Yes, there is a biological component to sexuality, but all research that I've read shows that this is highly mediated through society and culture. Meaning that human sexuality is 99% not biological.

You don't think there were Trump's and Clintons before Hollywood? There are Trumps and Clintons in chimp tribes, Agu, not to mention throughout human history. — Baden

Yes, in part also because those societies had something wrong with their culture. But in our society, culture is dictated by Hollywood - manufacturing culture is what they do.

Did Attila the Hun need high heels to turn him on. Give me a break.

You don't think there were Trumps and Clintons before Hollywood? There are Trumps and Clintons in chimp tribes, Agu, not to mention throughout human history.

Desire and the power to satisfy it. — Baden

And desire just arises all by itself, it isn't mediated through your culture? We're not told that we should desire women and lust after them, especially when scantily dressed, in red high heels, with long finger nails, etc. etc.? Precisely by being shown these things on TV, we're taught to imitate them, and hence start having those desires.