This is why I don’t buy into stuff like the shows of Madonna and others. I have nothing against them as a person, but to me it looks totally fake and like a form of mass manipulation and control like in some weird cult or sect. — Apollodorus

Most women want to come off as not being 'unfeminine' talking about their desires a certain way in the presence of males, but obviously I don't care two hoots about that. — Cobra

I probably am more likely to know men who aren't very interested in fashion (since I'm not); you're probably more likely to know men who are (since you are), — Kenosha Kid

Also in my perspective, gushing over women's clothes is, in the words of the great Derren Brown, "mostly for women and gays". But I would buy that that's changing. — Kenosha Kid

As men become more obsessed with their appearance, it would make sense that they become more critical and admiring of the appearance of others. I don't think this is a particularly good thing tbh, although it might be something of an equaliser. — Kenosha Kid

assume Turner’s appreciation of her choosing to wear such a beautiful coat is really an appreciation of her covering up. I find this to be a reductionist view. It reduces her aesthetic value to an object in motion, denying her intentionality because it makes it easier to interpret Turner’s behaviour in appreciating her appearance. This perspective attributes all intentionality to society, whereas Turner is attributing intentionality to the woman. — Possibility

I said it is unnecessary, a waste of time, and I doubt that it works. — Apollodorus

Lets first identify your position.

If I'm understanding you correctly you're implying that women degrade themselves through these performances and if only things were a little more proper relations between the sexes would improve. You may not have said this explicitly but it's what I'm gathering from going over this discussion. I could have misread, I'm not perfect.
— Apollodorus

4) I never said anyone needs to "strive for my approval" — Apollodorus

Personally, I tend to believe that in order to change the way women are judged, valued and treated, it is necessary to change the way women are seen by men. — Apollodorus

Do you find that such women are generally creative in other ways, like writing fiction or playing saxophone? Because otherwise that's rather a bootstrapped explanation. — Kenosha Kid

Other than that, I tend to agree with Wayfarer. Either someone is alluring or they are not. They don’t need to be in their underwear. :smile: — Apollodorus

Personally, I tend to believe that in order to change the way women are judged, valued and treated, it is necessary to change the way women are seen by men. Undressing every time you want to sing something seems like a strange way to go about it and I doubt that it actually works. — Apollodorus

Yeah, I got this from your last post, but I'm intrigued -- and there's no reason you'd necessarily be able to answer this -- why care about that? It sounds like you're far more interested in how women dress than I am, which isn't unusual in my experience. — Kenosha Kid

I'm actually quite interested in this. Binged a ton of Pedro Almodovar recently and he is OBSESSED with women's bodies, to the extent that, if this was the 90s and Pedro was straight, we might expect a review to say something like "his camera makes love to them". As a raving heterosexual with mostly like-minded friends, this divorce between gendered sensuality and gendered sexuality is slightly mysterious to me. — Kenosha Kid

Unless you're a gay male, in general adult males look like apes and adult females look like angels. — 180 Proof

Every cell in your body, every cell with a membrane that has ever been, seeks out nutrients to metabolize (eat) everywhere it can except where it can't: that's the self. — 180 Proof

Bingo! — James Riley

Edicts, pressure , cajoling and threats arent enough. Language changes on the basis of pragmatic usefulness. As people see for themselves the various advantages of changing pronouns , they will go along. — Joshs

There are those especially in the intelligentsia who do fall for the "Let's change the World totally"-argument that radical ideologies offer. As these usually have been among the smartest guys or gals around the block, they think that it's their calling, their chance to change the World. They have found their cause (at least for a while, that is). And as they are so smart, that change they are hoping for has to be important, radical, huge. Off with the old futile ideas! And this fits the progressive leftist as well as the right wing libertarian anarcho-capitalist. — ssu

The absurd does not liberate; it binds. It does not authorize all actions. "Everything is permitted" does not mean that nothing is forbidden. — 180 Proof

Billionaires are not the problem. Taking all their money won't solve anything. It just makes people feel good to resent them. Also - some of those billionaires got their billions by changing society dramatically - Gates, Jobs, Musk, Bezos, Zuckerberg. Of course, you could say that the changes are bad I guess.

The real problem is corporations. When the Constitution was written, there were two powerful institutions that we needed to be protected from - the church and government. Now, there is a third, corporations, and there are no built-in legal protections. — T Clark

If we voted in someone like Sanders, not only would this be advocating for Imperialism and colonialism, but it would also pacify the working class the same way FDR's New Deal was a compromise that stamped out any spark of radical leftism left in the USA." — Albero

Is taxing the rich just as bad as not taxing them when we could just be removing the billionaires all together? — Albero