Comments

  • Why being anti-work is not wrong.
    Schop, even if a wonderful feast was put in front of you, you would still have to put your fork in it and actually use motion to get the food to your mouth (otherwise you would wither and starve.) Talk about oppression. We should all just kill ourselves to protest against this horrible reality.
  • Why is so much allure placed on the female form?


    This is why I don’t buy into stuff like the shows of Madonna and others. I have nothing against them as a person, but to me it looks totally fake and like a form of mass manipulation and control like in some weird cult or sect.Apollodorus

    Madge isn't performing for people like you. You're not her target audience. Yeah, we're going to get kind of defensive when you come in as an outsider and you're like "oh this is fake" or "why does she gotta do all of this?"

    A certain kind of pop music is kinda campy and ridiculous - that's just what it is. It's a space for certain types of people to express themselves.

    Do you like MMA or masculine sports like football? Think of a sport or a masculine activity that you like.

    Now imagine a group of women or gay men come in and start saying "why do men need to be this aggressive?" or "why can't they be cuter and express their feelings more, it just feels so repressive!"

    You know what football could use? More gay love stories.

    You'd probably start to get a little annoyed after a while, no?
  • Why is so much allure placed on the female form?


    I don't have any problems with dick jokes or dick measuring contests among groups of men. I was more talking about e.g. one of us walking into a conversation among a group of men where they're like "yeah that woman had really big, nice tits" or "yeah I love big titties."

    I wouldn't be offended obviously, it would be ridiculous to the point of hilarious. It's like we're going back to the 3rd grade.

    I can see men who are very comfortable with each other using T&A jokes as long as they keep it light and sarcastic.

    Come to think of it, I did play rugby in college around 10 years ago and it did get quite sexually derogatory towards women. Yeah, that culture is under attack right now. In 2010 it was permitted, in 2021 it's very, very suspect. I am in favor of this cultural change -- young men (or any men, but especially impressionable young men) shouldn't be referring to women like that since it just reinforces toxic behavior and the objectification of women. There's just such a lack of positive male role models.
  • Why is so much allure placed on the female form?


    Interesting post.

    Personally, in my experience within straight male circles they virtually never talk about tits and ass. It would be a very strange topic to bring up around a group of men. I guess maybe I heard this topic once when I was in college, but as an adult it's just not something straight men discuss with each other (or with a gay man, in my case.)

    I do agree with you though that straight female circles are almost certainly raunchier than straight male circles. The straight men keep it pretty tame sexually and I would honestly be flabbergasted to hear a group of adult men going on about tits and ass.

    Most women want to come off as not being 'unfeminine' talking about their desires a certain way in the presence of males, but obviously I don't care two hoots about that.Cobra

    I think that's really cool and brave of you, but -- and I'm sure you're aware of this -- some men are almost certainly going to take it as a sexual come-on or an indicator that you're sexually available.

    Strange post.
  • Why is so much allure placed on the female form?


    I probably am more likely to know men who aren't very interested in fashion (since I'm not); you're probably more likely to know men who are (since you are),Kenosha Kid

    Actually, most of my friends are married straight men who don't care about fashion. I don't surround myself with insanely fashionable men since that's not my style (you wouldn't know I was gay if you met me.) I do need to be on the lookout for well-groomed or fashionable men because that's a sign that they might be into men, and thus potential sexual partners. I keep these men on my radar. I keep all gay men on my radar regardless of how they dress.

    Also in my perspective, gushing over women's clothes is, in the words of the great Derren Brown, "mostly for women and gays". But I would buy that that's changing.Kenosha Kid

    It's not that men need to gush over women's clothing, but a well-placed, genuine compliment on an article of clothing can go far. I'm not a woman, but I would think that men first need to establish comfort (with me they definitely need to establish comfort first, ideally vulnerability) and one of the ways they can do that is by complimenting a choice rather than e.g. a body part. I don't think some men realize how intimidating they can be. I definitely change my communication style depending on whether I'm interacting with a straight man, gay man, straight/bi woman or a lesbian... but I haven't interacted with too many lesbians so that one is kind of a mystery to me.

    As men become more obsessed with their appearance, it would make sense that they become more critical and admiring of the appearance of others. I don't think this is a particularly good thing tbh, although it might be something of an equaliser.Kenosha Kid

    Are men becoming more obsessed with their appearance? As a gay man, I need to place greater focus on my appearance because I'm subject to the male gaze and men are visual. Maybe it's not fair, but it is what it is.

    assume Turner’s appreciation of her choosing to wear such a beautiful coat is really an appreciation of her covering up. I find this to be a reductionist view. It reduces her aesthetic value to an object in motion, denying her intentionality because it makes it easier to interpret Turner’s behaviour in appreciating her appearance. This perspective attributes all intentionality to society, whereas Turner is attributing intentionality to the woman.Possibility

    100% - I'm appreciating an intentional decision here and this is not about someone "covering up" and I was confused why Apollo brought this into the discussion but this is good to clarify. The burqa accusation threw me for a loop.

    I said it is unnecessary, a waste of time, and I doubt that it works.Apollodorus

    Alright, so you're going to tell an adult (Britney, Madonna, Gaga, take your pick) who has millions of fans worldwide, has earned millions of dollars and has wide critical acclaim that their performance style of "unnecessary" and "a waste of time."

    You do you, man.
  • Why is so much allure placed on the female form?

    Lets first identify your position.

    If I'm understanding you correctly you're implying that women degrade themselves through these performances and if only things were a little more proper relations between the sexes would improve. You may not have said this explicitly but it's what I'm gathering from going over this discussion. I could have misread, I'm not perfect.
    Apollodorus
  • Why is so much allure placed on the female form?
    4) I never said anyone needs to "strive for my approval"Apollodorus


    Personally, I tend to believe that in order to change the way women are judged, valued and treated, it is necessary to change the way women are seen by men.Apollodorus

    You are a man, right? You're talking about changing the way women are seen by men, so maybe start with yourself. Maybe the culprit here is your own standards.

    EDIT: I'm not trying to be anti-male here; I'll sometimes give women similar advice when it comes to their own conceptions of men.



    I don't think it's a gay thing; I think it's just a general aesthetic appreciation. Fashion & make-up absolutely effects how attractive men consider someone. Beauty often takes skill, effort, and there's a lot that goes into it. Men are visual creatures.
  • Why is so much allure placed on the female form?
    Do you find that such women are generally creative in other ways, like writing fiction or playing saxophone? Because otherwise that's rather a bootstrapped explanation.Kenosha Kid

    In my experience this is the case.

    Also, doesn't good fashion bring a smile to your face? Maybe you come into work early in the morning and you see a woman in a beautiful coat, isn't that nice? There's so many different styles and colors.

    Other than that, I tend to agree with Wayfarer. Either someone is alluring or they are not. They don’t need to be in their underwear. :smile:Apollodorus


    Really? You think make up or clothes don't matter to attractiveness? I would think this one over if I were you.

    Personally, I tend to believe that in order to change the way women are judged, valued and treated, it is necessary to change the way women are seen by men. Undressing every time you want to sing something seems like a strange way to go about it and I doubt that it actually works.Apollodorus

    Just curious, would you ever say something like this to e.g. a gay man? Do gay men need to be more "respectable" and "cover up" so we can finally be respected by people like you? You want to change the way women or gay men are viewed by men? Maybe start by getting off your high horse.

    I'm going to flip your statement around and advocate for that position. I'm just swapping "men" with "women" here.

    "Personally, I tend to believe that in order to change the way men are judged, valued and treated, it is necessary to change the way men are seen by women."

    Men want to gain the approval of women, right? So why do you all have to be so damn intimidating and unemotional all the time? Why can't you all just try to be cuter? Why not hold hands with your friends when you walk in public and wear a bit of jewelry? Why is it us striving for your approval rather than you striving for ours?
  • Why is so much allure placed on the female form?


    Yeah, I got this from your last post, but I'm intrigued -- and there's no reason you'd necessarily be able to answer this -- why care about that? It sounds like you're far more interested in how women dress than I am, which isn't unusual in my experience.Kenosha Kid

    I'm not hugely interested in how women dress, but how a woman dresses definitely does impact my impression of her. I would love to surround myself with confident, awesome women who have an amazing sense of fashion because something that like speaks to her creativity and artistic eye. I absolutely want that energy in my life. Beauty is a good in itself, and I'm not jealous of it (like straight women can be) or have any sexual interest in it (like straight men) which makes the relationship really quite pure. Obviously there needs to be more to it than how she dresses, but looks matter.
  • Why is so much allure placed on the female form?


    I think there's a misunderstanding. By "apes" I wasn't talking about anything relating to body hair. I was referencing 180's initial statement and by "apes" I meant more along the lines of something you'd be a bit cautious about approaching and certainly not something you'd immediately have sexual thoughts about. I honestly want to keep my distance from the majority of men that I see in public - a lot of men can be kind of intimidating or have bad personal hygiene. Men usually don't go out of their way to be warm or inviting or dress pretty like women do. If I know a guy it's fine but with male strangers I tend to keep my distance and I'm certainly not fantasizing or eyeing them.
  • Why is so much allure placed on the female form?
    I'm actually quite interested in this. Binged a ton of Pedro Almodovar recently and he is OBSESSED with women's bodies, to the extent that, if this was the 90s and Pedro was straight, we might expect a review to say something like "his camera makes love to them". As a raving heterosexual with mostly like-minded friends, this divorce between gendered sensuality and gendered sexuality is slightly mysterious to me.Kenosha Kid



    Where there's smoke/chemistry there's not necessarily fire. Women are soft. Women go out of their way to look welcoming and pretty and a nice butt is a nice butt. It ultimately come down to what turns you on and what you fantasize about and no matter how soft, pretty, or sensual something is if it's not doing it for you then it's not happening. The difference is I'd imagine a straight guy would see a nice butt on a woman and be aroused or fantasize but I'd be thinking along the lines of "man, if I had a butt like that..." or I'll just admire the shape since it's toned and bubbly and wonder how she got it....biking? squats? It does zero for me downstairs.
  • Why is so much allure placed on the female form?


    Unless you're a gay male, in general adult males look like apes and adult females look like angels.180 Proof

    Gay male here - in general adult males look like apes and adult females look pretty decent and some are quite stunning.
  • Why are We Back-Peddling on Racial Color-Blindness?


    I agree.



    It's the author's mental disorders plus the presence of black people that triggers the oppression.
  • Why are We Back-Peddling on Racial Color-Blindness?
    Interesting twitter post I saw a few days back. Not sure how to post the image so I'll just re-write it here:

    "due to my autism and OCD, I actually do feel uncomfortable around black people. i have always felt extremely sad, uncomfortable, anxious, and sometimes I feel really scared of the fact that some of them are kind of creepy and the men are really really scary."

    I'm very confused as to who the oppressed group is here and would welcome thoughts on this.
  • Israel killing civilians in Gaza and the West Bank


    Yes, the US is clearly complicit in creating the conditions that led fascism to prosper in Europe, and I'm glad you've mentioned that other European powers were far from blameless as well. We're on the same page here.

    We have to remember that WWII really can't be separated from the Holocaust, so the factors that led to the Holocaust are also complicit in WWII: German religious/cultural traditions, the merger of science and race, historic anti-Semitism, and a host of other factors.

    Jewish economic success in Europe is also complicit - if the Jews didn't succeed they wouldn't have made such good targets/enemies for the Nazis.

    The key here is to distinguish between one being complicit and one being actually, directly responsible for something. If your boss fires you and you go home and kick your dog your boss may be complicit, but he's not responsible for your dog's injury.
  • Why is the misgendering of people so commonplace within society.


    So what Isaac -- is poverty in the US not a problem because poverty in Africa is more severe? Suffering is suffering.
  • Why is the misgendering of people so commonplace within society.


    I agree with your empirical assessment, but this can be changed with social action. As the population ages the elderly conservative population dies out. Additionally, if we can make it a norm through social action to e.g. yell at people who misgender others, I believe we can bring about meaningful change especially if we organize.

    Also I agree with your point re: "cruel and unusual" punishment. Only cruel, not unusual. :up:
  • How do we understand the idea of the 'self'?
    Every cell in your body, every cell with a membrane that has ever been, seeks out nutrients to metabolize (eat) everywhere it can except where it can't: that's the self.180 Proof

    :100:

    "Look inward" or "look to the self" is largely meaningless drivel pumped out by right-wing figureheads like Jordan Peterson as a way to distract from the pervasive systemic oppression and injustice all around us and preserve the status quo.
  • Why is the misgendering of people so commonplace within society.
    Bingo!James Riley

    This is a serious issue @James Riley, the younger generation is suffering and the Boomers ignore their cries of pain/calls for reform. Denying someone's identity is tantamount to genocide.
  • Why is the misgendering of people so commonplace within society.
    Edicts, pressure , cajoling and threats arent enough. Language changes on the basis of pragmatic usefulness. As people see for themselves the various advantages of changing pronouns , they will go along.Joshs

    Sometimes a little pressure and ostracism goes a long way: How long would it take you to notice the issue if people started referring to you as a different pronoun when you misgendered someone? People learn quickly when the feedback is quick and direct. First offenses may be forgivable, but beyond that it's becoming egregious.



    It's because dumb boomers don't care - even the leftist ones. Misgendering is cruel and unusual and I wouldn't wish it on anyone. I'm sorry you're around those types of people and hopefully as the new generation comes of age they spread their message and norms and the older generation dies off.
  • What is the Obsession with disproving God existence?
    We need to dispel this notion of a tyrannical sky daddy if humanity is going to progress. The masses cling to this idea of eternal salvation and this myth stunts psychological growth and prohibits humanity from realizing its destiny.
  • The “loony Left” and the psychology of Socialism/Leftism
    There are those especially in the intelligentsia who do fall for the "Let's change the World totally"-argument that radical ideologies offer. As these usually have been among the smartest guys or gals around the block, they think that it's their calling, their chance to change the World. They have found their cause (at least for a while, that is). And as they are so smart, that change they are hoping for has to be important, radical, huge. Off with the old futile ideas! And this fits the progressive leftist as well as the right wing libertarian anarcho-capitalist.ssu

    You don't get it.

    Everybody else is racist and sexist. Everybody else is stupid or brainwashed and chooses to believe in religious fairy tales over material reality. Only people like me are strong enough to face reality in its true form and understand that the people must actively take power from our powerful oppressors and in turn reclaim control our own destiny. If we need to break a few eggs to make the omelette then so be it - that's a sacrifice I'm willing to make to my own mental health if it means a better future for humanity.
  • Necessity and god
    The absurd does not liberate; it binds. It does not authorize all actions. "Everything is permitted" does not mean that nothing is forbidden.180 Proof

    That is an interesting Camus quote - would you mind either explaining or directing me to a good explanation, maybe by Camus himself?
  • Leftist praxis: Would social democracy lead to a pacified working class?
    Billionaires are not the problem. Taking all their money won't solve anything. It just makes people feel good to resent them. Also - some of those billionaires got their billions by changing society dramatically - Gates, Jobs, Musk, Bezos, Zuckerberg. Of course, you could say that the changes are bad I guess.

    The real problem is corporations. When the Constitution was written, there were two powerful institutions that we needed to be protected from - the church and government. Now, there is a third, corporations, and there are no built-in legal protections.
    T Clark


    Corporations and billionaires are both the problem. Confiscating billionaires' wealth would certainly make a difference - we're talking billions of dollars. I understand that some of them earned billions by changing society, but these American Gods cannot be allowed to keep flying; their wings must be clipped unceremoniously. No more billionaires imposing their will on the rest of the world with their undue influence and power due to their wealth. No more wage slavery, no more polluting either.
  • Is agnosticism a better position than atheism?
    God obviously doesn't exist. Are agnostics also agnostic about Santa or the Tooth Fairy or Zuzu at the bottom of the sea? Seems weak to me. God 100% does not exist and it's about time for theists to enter into psychological maturity.
  • Leftist praxis: Would social democracy lead to a pacified working class?
    If we voted in someone like Sanders, not only would this be advocating for Imperialism and colonialism, but it would also pacify the working class the same way FDR's New Deal was a compromise that stamped out any spark of radical leftism left in the USA."Albero


    :100: Sanders pacifies the masses.

    Is taxing the rich just as bad as not taxing them when we could just be removing the billionaires all together?Albero

    We must remove billionaires and I'm talking about total wealth confiscation of course. Society would probably have to beat out their superiority complex as well; I mean think about it - billionaires have a God-like status under capitalism and I don't think anything else besides a beating is going to humble them. After starting with the billionaires we work our way down to those with 9 figures, then 8, then 7 figures. Perhaps beating should get proportionally more humane depending on net worth e.g. those with 8 figures get a weaker beating than those with 10 figures.