It's not murder. Innocent people sometimes can be justifiably killed. In the violinist analogy, if you remove the tubes from yourself that are keeping the violinist alive, you are not actively killing him, you are failing to render aid. You do not have a moral duty to render aid to people that are hooked up to you without your consent.

I agree that innocent people can be justifiably killed; but only when it is indirectly intentional (in some cases). You are (directly) intending to kill them by pulling the plug knowing that they will die and that this is a means towards your end of detaching your body. You are not failing to render aid: that would be an inaction (e.g., not helping someone that is drowning) or an act that fails to achieve its end (e.g., you are trying to help the drowning person but they end up drowning anyways)—neither are the case in this case. You are acting by pulling the plug: that’s an action. You might argue that this action is justified, but then you are committed to the view that directly intentionally killing an innocent person is not always murder.

Let’s make it even more explicit what I am arguing. Imagine to pull the plug you had to walk over to the other person and put a bullet in their head to kill them off before pulling it. Would you find that morally permissible? Is it distinct from merely pulling the plug under your view?

@Banno, this the kinds of baseless hate I get on here: https://thephilosophyforum.com/discussion/comment/1021010 . Now RogueAI, instead of dealing with my response, is trying to paint me as a Nazi now (apparently).

I do not condone Nazism: period. Wanting to help people who have illnesses and deprivations of their nature, out of love and compassion, is not the same as trying to exterminate people on the basis of sexual orientation, transgenderism, etc. I am not advocating to send people to camps; or to forceably inject them with experimental drugs or something. This is all just a convenient way for RogueAI to evade a discussion with my views by labeling me as an extremist.

This is no different than how a person can argue that we should try to find a cure and help schizophrenics without committing them to the view that schizophrenics should be sent to concentration camps. This should be painfully obvious to everyone.

This makes no sense

My response was using a leeway conception of freedom.

Would you say that tool-making is an unnatural use of the hands

What unnatural usages of hands? Can you give an example?

 or an ostrich's use of their wings in mating practices unnatural?

Wings aren’t just for flying: they can be for steering, mating rituals, etc.; just like lips can be for kissing as well as speaking.

Some species may have aspects of their nature that are just the residual affects of evolution; and so they may not have as much of a use, although they would still be designed that way, comparatively. E.g., an ostrich’s wings aren’t quite as useful as a normal bird’s wings. You are confusing utility with teleology: there is nothing random about evolution.

Agents can do things that go against their nature. This is an age-old liberal point that is false. Just because animals have the agency to go against their nature it doesn't mean that it is in their nature to do it. You would have to commit yourself to the absurd view that everything a natural organism does is natural.

Probably not. There's no marriage in heaven, so I would presume there's no genders.

To be clear, I don't hate you. If you are every over this way I would buy you a beer and have a chat with you.

I appreciate that, and I do not hate you either.

That accusation of name-calling - I'm here, and I've just spent a half-hour responding to your post with an extended account of why I think it problematic. That's a lot more than just name-calling.

It seems like you are conceding you have name-called but that you are engaging with the discussion simultaneously: as of now, I agree with that. My complaint was twofold: you don’t usually engage with me on the topic-at-hand and you name-call. Either way, I appreciate you responding and engaging with the discussion: that is what really matters and is respectable.

They are not; they are an ought imposed by you over and above the is of how things are

I forgot that you are a moral non-naturalist: this OP is presupposing a form of moral naturalism. I don’t accept Hume’s guillotine. We can discuss that if you want, but I do need to address:

You are welcome to your views, and you are welcome to express them. What is objectionable is the pretence that your attitudes are natural, such that they are the inevitable outcome of how things are. They are not; they are an ought imposed by you over and above the is of how things are

Moral naturalism shouldn’t be objectionable to you in a way where one resorts to name-calling and censorship. All the above amounts to is you being compelled by moral non-naturalism to reject moral naturalism, which is perfectly fine and we can have a robust conversation about it.

The US has an infatuation with free speech not found elsewher

I think all countries would be better off mirroring American values. Free speech is essential to exercising our minds properly which the nation-state should be facilitating; and it allows for healthy dissent against the government.

Or rather,
it pretends to allow anyone to say what they please, the practical outcome of which is to have speech controlled by the very rich. As the criticism of Feyerabend says, "anything goes" just means that nothing changes

Capitalism and corportism is what causes the rich controlling the media and manipulating the masses—not free speech. Even in a heavily censored and rich-controlled media, as we have seen in America, people are able to voice their beliefs without fear of governmental backlash; and people prevail against social backlash for exercising free speech—they get fed up with liberal censorship.

As a philosopher, I am surprised you reject american-style free speech: I would have imagined you to support the free exercise of our intellect to help further ideas and shape people’s views with critical thinking.

Do you think that the forums should drop the rule agains posting bigotry and racism?

Firstly, I cannot emphasize enough that this thread is not an example of either of those. Secondly, I would say that the rules should allow for a free marketplace of ideas and the free conversing and exchange of them (intellectually). The purpose behind free speech in America is not to have absolute free speech (like some conservatives think): it’s to allow us to freely exercise our mind’s natural ends through intellectual pursuits.

With that in mind, the rules should ban the exercise of speech that is not aimed at the exercise of the intellect (through free exchange of ideas) and are harmful. This would include exercises of speech like obvious trolling, bullying, inciting of violence, etc.

This thread is obviously only attempting to defend and discuss an alternative view of gender theory as well as, it developing into a discussion of, defending conservative views that relate to the philosophical position at hand.

The categories you gave don’t cleanly fit into this dichotomy. For example, take racism: what if someone wanted to have an intellectual discussion about race realism vs. anti-realism? That’s technically a differentiation based off of race, which meets the modern definition of racism; but it would be an intellectual pursuit. What if, on the other hand, someone opened up a thread to just bash a particular race? That seems inappropriate, as it is not ordered towards intellectual exchange of ideas.

Read the OP again: does it resemble more the attempt at an intellectual exchange of ideas or a bashing of liberals?

I even updated it to change the semantics to help further the discussion (while retaining the original content in strikeout)!

Not quite. It's not uncommon to presume that either realism is true or nominalism is true. But the two are not exhaustive, nor mutually exclusive. There are intermediate or alternative responses that avoid the simple binary. For example, Kant's conceptualism, Ramsey's pragmatism 

Categorically, either ontologically there are real essences to things or there are not: those are exhaustive. The other options you gave aren’t about ontology: they are epistemic. Kant famously denied knowing anything about the things-in-themselves: he was an agnostic on the true debate between nominalists and realists to the strongest extent of thinking we can’t ever know; and shifted the focus to the a prior modes by which we cognize reality.

imposes a nature as much as it shows a nature.

Are you taking a Kantian approach here?

What you are doing here is stipulating that certain characteristics determine who is human and who isn't, and then insisting on explaining away any falsification of your stipulation as aberrant

I haven’t heard anything from you that is something that falsifies my view. I am more than happy to entertain it if you provide some.

Then you reject the most coherent semantics for modal language, a framework that allows modality to be expressed without incoherence or circularity. What is your alternative?

Two main reasons I reject PWT:

1. Under this view, possibly necessary → necessary → existence. This exposes the fatal flow in thinking of these modalities in terms of conceivable worlds.

2. It conflates conceivability with modality. Something is not merely possible because I can conceive of it in a possible world. In fact, no human can know exactly what is possible and what isn’t. This is why I prefer to use the modalities in a stricter, negative sense of evaluating it relative to whether or not it ‘violates the mode of thought’. For example, X is possible under M IFF under interpretation M X does not violate the laws therein. Viz., it is logically possible IFF it doesn’t violate the theory of logic being used; it is metaphysically possible IFF it doesn’t violate the theory of metaphysics being used; it is actual possible IFF it doesn’t violate the theory of nature (the universe) being used. This protects us from falling into the trap of conflating conceivability with possibility, necessity, contingency, etc.

 It's you and I who decide what is legitimate, not biology.

I don’t think moral non-naturalism works as it appeals to an unknown, incoherent source of morality (such as Moorean thought) and essentially is just moral anti-realism with the false veil of objectivity (no offense!).

Goodness, under the Aristotelian view, is the equality of a being’s essence and esse; which is identical, given the form vs. being distinction, to being as convertible with goodness—as the more being a thing has the more realized it is at what it is.

So the way reality is, in form—in essence, does dictate how things ought to be.

E.g., a good farmer is not hypothetically good at farming; nor is he subjectively (non-objectively) good at farming: he actually is good at farming. He is objectively good at farming because he embodies the essence of farming in virtue and deed. His being is realizing the essence of farming properly.

Not quite; gender is fluid, because like all social artefacts it is the result of a "counts as..." statement (this is what @Leontiskos is missing). See my thread on John Searle if you need more explanation of this

This is interesting, but I didn’t quite follow: can you elaborate on it more?

You apparently want sex to count as gender, failing to notice the very many differences between our uses of the two terms.

Ok, so, in good faith, I altered the OP to make a conceptual but not real distinction between gender and sex to account for this and help avoid other confusions other people have been having. Please take a quick look at the OP and let me know what you think: I kept the old text in strikeout and the new in bold. The semantics don’t really matter that much to the underlying content I am conveying. The point is that gender is not a social construct.

 No it isn't - it's against what was presumed to count as natural, but which doesn't.

This begs the question: I am saying it really “counts as” a part of their nature because they really have a nature. You are denying they really have a nature and your rebuttle here is to presuppose that they don’t really have a nature and that I am just “counting it as” a nature when it isn’t. That’s the whole point in contention, though.

Take the thought experiment to its logical conclusion: instead of the violinist being hooked up to you for 9 months, he's hooked up to you for 45 years and during that time, you're in total physical agony. And also, he's not just hooked up to you, he's hooked up to a thousand other people, all necessary to keep him alive. But why stop at a thousand? Let's say it's a million people. A billion. 

With all due respect, my friend, I think you are not appreciating what I am saying: I already addressed and anticipated this rejoinder. Even if the consequences of not murdering the violinist were the most grave and insufferable that a human can conceive of, it is still immoral to murder; so it is immoral to do so.

Even if everyone else was perpetually hooked up to this terrifying scientific experiment, it would not make it permissible to murder someone. What you are arguing is that ‘murder is wrong’ and simultaneously ‘but if the consequences of doing the right thing are too grave, then murder is not wrong’.

Is your position still that it's immoral for any one of those people to unhook themselves and end all the suffering? 

So this depends on if the killing is directly intentional. I am assuming here, for the sake of my point, that unplugging is an directly intentional act to kill the other people hooked up. If so, then that’s murder and is immoral.

Homosexuality is defective: it can be defective biologically and/or socio-psychologically. Heterosexuality is defective sometimes socio-psychologically.

Homosexuality is always defective because, at a minimum, it involves an unnatural attraction to the same sex which is a privation of their human nature (and usually of no real fault of their own); whereas heterosexuality is not per se because, at a minimum, it involves the natural attraction to the opposite sex.

Now, heterosexuality can be defective if the person is engaging in opposite-sex attraction and/or actions that are sexually degenerate; but this will always be the result of environmental or/and psychological (self) conditioning. The underlying attraction is not bad: it's the lack of disciple, lack of habit towards using that attraction properly, and (usually) uncontrollable urges towards depriving sexual acts.

Calling people degenerate is bigotry.

Even if it really is degenerate? This is the basic, colloquial definition of bigotry:

“obstinate or unreasonable attachment to a belief, opinion, or faction, in particular prejudice against a person or people on the basis of their membership of a particular group.”

You are begging the question because you are presupposing that my belief that, e.g., “engaging in BDSM is sexually degenerate” is true is unreasonable and false; but that’s the whole point in contention here, and what you are doing is labeling me with a word that no one wants to be labeled with so that it is easier to evade contending with my claim.

Do you think engaging in BDSM, e.g., is not sexually degenerate? If not, then what would count as sexually degenerate under your view and would any concession of the possibility of sexual degeneracy be considered bigotry on your view?

 If I said theists are delusional and need to be cured of their magical thinking, that would be the same thing.

Firstly, I don’t think all members of the LGBTQ+ community are delusional. Secondly, you could very well make the claim that theists are delusional and I would ask you for your reasons why and contend with them without name-calling.

Notice that you haven't presented an 'argument' to refute.

This isn’t directly relevant to the OP: you ended up critiquing a claim I made to someone else on here. The natural ends of a sex organ, as a sex organ, is to procreate; which is exemplified by its shape, functions (e.g., ejaculation, erections, etc. for a penis), and its evolutionary and biological relation to the opposite (supplementary) sex organ of the opposite sex.

Your contention seems to be:

Now, even if we take a neutral view that human bodies evolved over time to have certain functions, that still doesn’t amount to an argument against using a penis for anal sex

A function is just the modern term for design; and I understand that I didn’t make an argument for why it is wrong. I was giving you an example to demonstrate that it is bad. Badness is the privation of goodness; and goodness is the equality of a being’s essence and esse. Rightness and wrongness are about behaving in accord or disaccord with what is good (respectively). If you don’t agree with me that it is a privation of the design (or ‘function’) of the human sex organs to be put in places they are designed to go, all else being equal, then we need to hash that out first.

 if it can be done, it's natural.

Not everything that is done is natural. By ‘natural’, in natural law theory, we mean that it flows from the nature of a given being.

Agency allows beings to freely will against their nature; so it can’t be true that every act is natural.

when a man puts his penis in a woman’s mouth, is that also a violation of design according to you?

Yes.

Or using fingers for typing?

Fingers are designed to be used to press, pull, and grab things: that’s there evolutionary purpose. That’s why thumbs are so awesome.

Who decides what counts as a violation of usage and who decides what counts as design?

Not who, my friend, what. The nature of a being is ingrained in them. We can come to know that nature through introspection, science, metaphysics, etc. E.g., we can see, through studying biology and empirically living in the world, that human’s are supposed to have two arms: this is a part of what it means to be a human being as opposed to, e.g., a dolphin.

Not really. If you say gay and tans people are deviant, you are saying bigoted things. You are presenting a moral judgment founded in bias and stigma. It's textbook bigotry.

You are just begging the question: why is it a bias and stigma? I presented non-biased, rational, and cogent reasons for, e.g., homosexuality being a privation of human nature. We haven’t dived into transgenderism as a mental illness that much yet; but the same can be done there too. Why do you so conveniently assume your opposition is operating under a bias and prejudice? What if I just assumed right back at you that you are being biased against my view and biased in favor of LGBTQ+?

That's just an example of argumentum ad populum. I'm sure as many Americans probably think the world is only 6,000 years old. Who cares how many think something?

I am not suggesting that it is true because a lot of people believe it. I was bringing that up because you seemed to be evading the discussion by name-calling and acting like this view is niche in America. I am just noting it is not niche at all.

Saying “the penis isn’t designed for anal sex” isn’t an argument; it’s just an unsupported assertion

My friend, every claim is an assertion; and every premise of an argument is an assertion. You ask me why homosexuality is bad and I give you a cogent example: it’s fine if you don’t agree with it and we can dive in deeper, but this idea that ‘because it is an assertion it is baseless’ isn’t legitimate. Every statement is an assertion. Reason works by working finitely at an argument: it starts with first-order reasons, then second-order, etc.

Anyway, I'll let you have the last word since this seems to be going nowhere. I suspect that we don't have enough in common to build a productive conversation. I have nothing against you as a person and wish you well. I have no doubt that you are sincere and doing the best you can with your thinking and I would say the same applies to me. I’d be interested in a thread soem time about how we can have conversations with people who don’t share basic axioms or frameworks, and how we can develop a society that allows for pluralism.

I wish you the best as well and I have no doubt that you are genuine and sincere in your pursuit of the truth. I think we could try to find some common ground if you would like.

I believe we have discussed this before. Allowing evil is itself a kind of evil. God permitted the Holocaust, for which he must take at least some responsibility.

I believe we did discuss this before too: allowing evil may be evil but is not necessarily evil. E.g., if I can only save a person from getting murdered by doing evil, then allowing the evil of that person getting murdered is morally permissible and, in this case, obligatory. You are omitting a crucial distinction between the moral evaluation of omissions and commissions.

This is an easy mentality for intelligent and learned people to fall into.

I agree with everything said here; but it doesn’t address my point. I am not trying to convey that we should have a superiority complex, posture, or gate-keep: I am saying that how one conveys message is contextual to the audience that they are trying to receive it. You have to convey things in a simplified way to the average person to get them to gravitate, or even think about, your view. If you sit down and give an elaborate theory philosophically in front of the average, hard-working American; they are not going to understand you: not because they are stupid, but because they lack the education on that specific topic. We are all affected by this too: there’s plenty of topics I am grossly uneducated on as well and someone educated on it would have to dumb it down for me too.

Having spoken with you over the years I am sure you have nothing but good intentions. However, this is a philosophy board and not a political one. Being simple in language is a virtue, but treating people here as simple is not. People want to be inspired by thinking about something in an enlightened way, not riled up against a perceived enemy. The enemy is not other people here, but unclear thinking captured by unwarranted assertions and unexamined assumptions.

Over-simplification is not a virtue; but being able to convey a message in a contextually useful way that is simple for people to understand is...and that is what I am advocating for. I do see and agree with your point: I agree that we should be intellectually virtuous, and I am not suggesting we should do otherwise. I am pointing out that you have to make your message receptive to your audience, and also helpful for them to avoid semantic traps. Gender theory is a gigantic semantic trap—as you yourself even admitted (if I remember correctly)—and I am providing an alternative view that uses a different schema to help ward of that trap.

Since I think people on this forum (excluding some like yourself of course) seem to be incapable of dealing legitimately with an opposing view that they adamantly disagree with; I am going to rewrite the OP, while preserving the original content, to use the schema that conceptually separates gender and sex to help them understand my position better. At the end of the day I am only interested in furthering the discussion to get at the truth; so if rewording it helps then I am fine with that.

Declaring without a carefully reasoned and referenced view as to why trans people are sexually deviant is an attack on a section of people, which I feel we should all be careful in doing in a thinking forum. What makes them deviant?

Firstly, this wasn’t in the OP: I mentioned this to someone on a broader discussion about politics. This is not a claim I am making that is pertinent to the OP.

I think the LGBQ+ community is a community of sexually deviant people: they embrace sexuality in an grossly overly-exhalted way and engage in what would be normally considered sexually extreme or deviant acts. Granted, ‘sexual deviancy’ tends to be evaluated inter-subjectively (on what the social norms currently are); but having oral sex, anal sex, engaging in pornos, having orgies, enjoying sissification, BDSM, etc. are all sexually deviant acts that are a part of and quite closely connected to that community. Even in the case of less deviant people, like a less deviant homosexual couple for example, they tend to do deviant sex acts (like anal sex, for example). There are sexually deviant straight people too.

Philosophy is about questioning, exploring, and understanding. It is why I avoid politics in philosophical discussions, because I feel the two can rarely meet together properly.

The problem with this is that philosophy is supposed to inform politics. My metaphysics on gender and sex are informing my political views on gender theory and vice-versa for my opponents. Politics is not separable from philosophy.

Just a reminder not to get too wrapped up in passion that we forget the role of philosophy here. Careful definitions, attacks on words and not people, and listening to and addressing others concerns even if it appears they are not being charitable back.

Fair enough and I agree!

That's utterly irrelevant to what I was saying. I was arguing that inserting a penis in an anus violates the natural ends of both organs.

Thomson's violinist analogy is so obviously right in its conclusion

Is it?

I can't fathom the thought processes required to come to the conclusion that

Well, that’s a problem. I understand why someone would conclude that they could cut the cord...otherwise I couldn’t really say that I am right in my conclusion that they are wrong. How do you know I am wrong about it being immoral to murder the violinist even towards the good end of saving yourself if you don’t understand why someone would take that position?

Just to be clear, is that really your position?

P1: Murder is the direct intentional killing of an innocent person.
P2: It is wrong to murder.
P3: Directly intentionally killing the innocent violinist is murder.
P4: Therefore, directly intentionally killing the innocent violinist is wrong.

What you are saying is:

P1: Involuntary use of a person’s body is a violation of a person’s right to bodily autonomy.
P2: A violation of a persons’ right to bodily autonomy is wrong.
P3: The innocent violinist is using a persons’ body without their consent.
P4: Therefore, it is wrong for the innocent violinist to use the person’s body without their consent.

What you are failing to understand is that the violinist is not the one violating this person’s bodily autonomy: it is the person who hooked them up to them that committed the violation and consequently the immoral act. Now, the violinist and the other victim are stuck in a predicament: how do they go about resolving it? Can they do something immoral to resolve it? No, but you are arguing “yes”: you are saying this victim can murder the violinist to resolve the situation. That’s wrong: two wrongs don’t make a right. Wouldn’t you agree?

One's penis can go anywhere one chooses (with consent). But anal sex is not compulsory, right? No one is saying it is, although it's a common heterosexual activity. And a question of 'design' has not been demonstrated. A penis fits inside holes. Are you also against sticking a penis in a woman's mouth? Where do you get the idea that any particular kind of sex act is somehow wrong?

To clarify, are you answering “no” to my question?!? You really don’t believe that a penis is not designed to be inserted into an anus?

I get that ‘design’ might be a strong word for you; but wouldn’t you say it at least is contrary to the ‘natural functions’ of the penis?

I am saying a particular kind of sex act is wrong if it is contrary to the natural ends and teleology of a human. I think this even holds in atheistic views that are forms of moral naturalism like Filippe Foote’s ‘natural goodness’.

There is a moral arbiter here, but you've not identified him. He is the one always working behind the scenes to try to censor the things he disagrees with instead of arguing against them.

@Banno, I try my best to avoid making serious accusations against my opponents and I want to be as charitable to them as possible, but given the staunch hatred I am getting on this thread for trying to discuss a basic and prominent topic I am inclined to agree here. This thread has unintentionally exposed members of this forum that are pro-censorship and that favor name-calling over intellectual conversations. With that being said, I truly commend @Jamal for respecting free speech here, although they disagree with the OP.

I did no such thing.

I apologize: I thought Jamal said you did—I must have misunderstood.

However to be clear, if it were in my power I would delete the thread as failing, under the mentioned guidelines. But it's not my call.

Ok, but this goes back to my main point: it is saddening that you are so anti-free-speech. What you are advocating for is to censor anyone who comes up with an alternative view to gender theory. This is a discussion with major philosophical backdroppings that needs to be sorted out in America and has profound influence on the rest of the world.

"Quiddity" treats essence as a thing to be discovered.

Correct; and to be clear: you are an anti-realist about essences if you disagree with the above quoted statement. You would have to be nominalist...that’s not a trivial commitment to have.

How are we to understand quiddity apart from our conceptual apparatus - apart from our use of language?

Linguistics isn’t identical to conceptualizations; but, beyond that, yes: if you are a realist about essences—if you are one of the many people in the world who think that, e.g., two humans really share a nature—then you have to explain how that works. The only way it works is if there is a unity—a whole—to a being which provides its intelligibility: there must be an actualizing principle. This provides the essences to things.

Possible world semantics makes no such metaphysical commitment

Your view seems very centered around possible world theory...which is fine; but, again, if you disagree that essences are real then you are saying that humans do not share a nature, two chairs don’t share a nature, etc.---viz., you are a nominalist.

This is just the age-old debate between nominalism and form realism rehashed.

as if it were a mere dogma of modality; it is, whether you like it or not, the very language in which modality is made coherent.

Firstly, I reject possible world theory (but we can discuss that if you would like). Secondly, why would we need to reject that, e.g., two humans share the same nature in order to accept that, e.g., possibly X is equal to X existing in some possible world?

And yet the result of that "purposeful collapse" is an inability to distinguish constructed social role from biological fact, and the claim to have demonstrated that biology determines social role

It doesn’t collapse in this way because I am claiming that the only social aspects of gender that are legitimate are those that are the upshot of one’s procreative nature; so there may, and usually are, social expectations and views of gender that are patently false that a society may have.

In your view and the modern gender theory view, it is impossible for a society to get a gender wrong; because it is purely a social construct. Sure, you may quibble with epistemically how to hash out when it is a true social norm that X gender does such-and-such and presents themselves in this-and-that manner; but fundamentally gender is inter-subjective on this view. It is anti-realism about gender akin to anti-realism about ethics: e.g., people who debate whether men should wear dresses are not giving judgments that express something objective no different than how people who debate whether killing babies for fun is wrong are not giving judgments that express something objective (under moral anti-realism).

You do no have to attend a drag show, but you have not given good reason to prevent others from doing so.

Because it is:

1. Harmful to children and incentivizes them to harm themselves;
2. Gravely harmful to the adults (participating); and
3. It exemplifies grave evil that society should not be condoning.

I'm not saying you are a bigot i said what you wrote was bigoted

This is an important distinction, but my rejoinder would be essentially the same. I don’t think you are writing bigotry by opposing stereotypical conservative values and beliefs. It seems way to convenient to label your most prominent opposition in America as all writing bigotry by noting that homosexuality, transgenderism, and sexually degenerate behavior is bad (for those participating in it).

 "Let's cure those deviants."

Imagine someone believed that transgenderism was a mental illness called ‘gender dysphoria’, akin to (but not identical to) someone with schizophrenia. Would you consider them a bigot or purporting bigotry by noting that we should help cure people with transgenderism just like we help schizophrenics???

 I think that’s fair; he was big on re-educating dissenters. What you think about Stalin is irrelevant to my point.

I don’t believe in re-educating dissenters. I am fine with free speech; however, it is commonly accepted that people who are extremely mentally (or/and physically) unwell need desperate help and they may be confined for a while for their own safety to themselves (like suicidal people for example). Should everyone who has a mental illness be put in a camp? No.

Wouldn’t you agree that being homosexual or transgender is a result of socio-psychological disorders or/and biological developmental issues?— Bob Ross

No, and this is another bigoted position.

Then you are, in fact, labeling your opposition as bigoted instead of refuting their position. I could easily say the same thing about your views: it doesn’t help further the conversation.

I don’t know you to establish how seriously you offer this, but that sentence reads like something a child would write, surely? I can't help but feel some compassion for you that your religion appears to have made you so reductive and homophobic.

Notice that you didn’t engage with what I said because it is obviously true. A sex organ is not designed to be inserted in an anus; even if you believe that it is morally permissible to do so. The fact you resort to name-calling as an evasion technique instead of rebuttling my position is saddening.

I could be wrong but from what I read here my view would be that it might benefit you to stop hiding behind theories, metaphysics, and fundamentalist religion, and get out into the real world. Spend time with lots of different kinds of people for a few years. Maybe some real-world exposure will help you understand the diversity and beauty in people who differ from your prescribed notions. And that perhaps what needs to change is you, not them.

Instead of making baseless assumptions about my life, begging the question, and name-calling; why don’t you just contend with the view?

That said, I’m glad you feel confident expressing your opinions here for us all to explore. It’s interesting to see what comes out in response, Perhaps it reveals a little more about the true nature of some of our members.

You do understand that the hugely popular conservative view right now in America is that transgenderism is a mental illness—right? You keep pretending like this is a crazy, outlandish, bigoted, and ‘transphobic’ position to take; and keep straw manning the position with name-calling and baseless assumptions to evade engaging in the discussion. Acknowledging that something is a mental illness does not entail that one hates people who have it….do you really not believe that???

With all that being said, I am always open-minded and would be glad to discuss the OP with you if you ever decide to engage with it instead of straw manning it with baseless name-calling. If not, no worries and I wish you the best Tom!

It is rather difficult to make sense of all this decarative definitional stuff, because your definitions are not clearly distinguished

What part of my definitions were not clear?

and at the same time fail to account for the variety of human behaviour and social relations

On the contrary, it accounts for the behavioral aspect of gender by noting that it is the upshot one’s nature; thusly avoiding the critical confusion of thinking gender is divorced from sex.

To be honest, I might just opt-in for the other schema I was playing with, of which I noted also depicts essentially the same ideas I am noting with the equality of sex and gender, that holds gender and sex as conceptually but not really distinct. That might help people avoid this (invalid) rejoinder that I am not accounting for the social aspects of how biological sex will tend to express itself.

Males can include gays, cross dressers, celibates castrati, none of whom tend to 'serve the role of providing, protecting, impregnating, etc. a female.'

Yes, but they are fully men because they have male souls; and they simply aren’t, in existence, properly living up to their nature.

I'm here, Bob.

I am glad to hear that, believe it or not (:

Next time, please tag me in the post so I get a notification. I just happen to see this post and otherwise wouldn’t have responded at all.

 I held off because it looked to me as if 
↪Jamal
 might be about to do something in accord with the guidelines, but it seems not.

Unless @Jamal would like to make the horrifying but typical liberal mistake of censoring those that have different philosophical views than them that help further the discussion on major political issues in America, I would suggest that the best response to a view that one gravely disagrees with is to contend with it and dismantle it for all to see instead of trying to put it in pandora’s box.

I would like to also say that I am disappointed that you decided to report the thread instead of contending with the ideas; especially since this touches on a very interesting debate between liberals and conservatives in america right now—this isn’t a niche position I am taking here (at least in America). The fact you would prefer it get censored is disheartening to me.

You claim your approach is neo-Aristotelian, but apart from the name, there's nothing to indicate why

Good question! It is Aristotelian because I am using his metaphysics through-and-through here, albeit it more Aristo-thomistic. The key metaphysical distinction I am making between the form and matter of a human is Aristotelian; and the very concepts of ‘substance’, ‘soul’, etc. I used are Aristotelian.

You say sex is "a distinct type of substance", a very odd phrasing; as if we could put sex on a scale and measure it's mass, or wash it down the drain

Interesting you would say that, considering I am openly using Aristotle’s metaphysics. A substance for Aristotle is an essentially ordered unity that exists by itself (e.g., water, iron, etc.) as opposed to an unessentially ordered unity for another (e.g., a chair, a table, etc.). Essentially vs. unessentially ordered unities is an essential aspect of Aristotelian thought.

More recent work uses possible world semantics and talks of essential properties rather than substance. An essence here becomes a predicate attributed to an individual in every possible world in which it exists.

That’s fine, but this would also be true for an essence as used in Aristotelian thought if one accepts possible world theory. I personally don’t, but I am willing to grant it for the sake of our conversation to see what you are thinking. An essence is just a quiddity: it is that is essential to a thing that makes it that thing. This is perfectly compatible with your description (although it is not a definition), given possible world theory, that it is about predicates “attributed to an individual in every possible world in which it exists”. That is just to reiterate, without defining an essence, that an in every possible world in which a being exists it would have to have its essential properties.

That is a much more workable definition than the nonsense of "that which makes something what it is, and not something else".

It’s just a broader definition that doesn’t require possible worlds theory. PWT has many issues with it.

CC: @Leontiskos

Keep offering philosophy to those who don't rise above name-calling. :up:— Leontiskos
That had me laughing out loud. No way to talk about our god-king Horus, though.
…
Do you follow this? Should I dumb it down a bit more? 

If you and I were in the middle ages, I would imagine you as a priest and me as a peasant and you would be mocking me for not being able to read the Bible while also refusing to teach me how to read.

Sex is physical, gender is social. Your insistence that they are the same substance is ridiculous

I am not interested in throwing insults back and forth, but I do want to note that you suggested I am too stupid to understand possible worlds theory in modal logic and then blatantly used the term ‘substance’ incorrectly. Neither gender nor sex are a substance…

Irregardless: why do you believe gender is “social”? How would you define each?

The latin genus referred to the classification of nouns — masculine, feminine, or neuter. So historically, neuter is one of the categories that “gender” originally encompassed.The original meaning of “gender” already included the notion of “neither male nor female”

Yeah, but that wasn’t applied to people (except in rare cases); and it was used to refer to something other than a person that couldn’t be meaningfully given a gender. ‘Neuter’ doesn’t refer to an actual third gender: it is a lack of gender.

So again, you are stipulating that there are two genders, determined by sex, and then pretending that this is a discovery, that it could not be otherwise.

Banno, I noted many times in this thread that I don’t mind if someone wants to make a virtual distinction between sex and gender: I am purposefully collapsing them to avoid confusion. Someone could make essentially the same view I am but conceptually separate gender and sex. The issue liberals have is that they try to make them really distinct as opposed to virtually distinct.

You are right: I am claiming that maleness and femaleness are a part of the real nature of men and woman; and this is different than the modern metaphysics smuggled into biology (although I wouldn't say either are incompatible with biology).

As Leontiskos said here, a male has the essence of maleness independently of how imperfectly he instantiates it in his existence. There is a metaphysical distinction between the form (act) and matter (potency) being made here that really helps clarify how gender and sex operate (irregardless if one believes they are conceptually distinct or not).

You didn't even try to answer the question, because you know I am right that the sex organs are not designed to be put in the anus (irregardless if you think men will tend to do it or tend to like to do it).

Yes. You are suggesting that if the negative consequences of doing the right thing are too great, then we shouldn't do it. If I could only save myself from extreme torture as opposed to simply getting murdered by murdering someone else, that wouldn't magically make me murdering someone permissible. What if me murdering this person saved the rest of humanity from endless suffering? Still not permissible.

"Liberal agenda" in the true sense of the phrase

You are splitting hairs here. Everyone knows that liberalism as a popular movement in america has agendas just like conservatives do.

:up:

It's actually certain feminists (who tend to be overwhelmingly liberal) who reject the idea of transwomen being in their bathrooms, or getting social services as women...these women tend to be insulted as "T.E.R.F"s by trans supporters

That’s fair, but modern fourth-wave feminism tends to support transwomen. Traditional women that are of the earlier type of feminism are the one’s insulted.

 The bathroom issue is a liitle more dicey, because kicking them out of women's bathrooms means forcing them to use men's bathrooms, something people shouldnt do to each other

Why not? You are a man: you should use the men’s bathroom. You are a woman: you should use the women’s bathroom. Should we create a bathroom stall for every gender they make up? Should we have one family bathroom that everyone has to take turns using?

I dont get hostility towards putting something different on your drivers license or the drag shows: in the former, it just makes it even easier for the police to identify you 

It hinders the police in their investigations: every important trait of a person that they can generalize is tied to sex and not this ‘gender’ as a ‘personality type’. Police officers don’t care what you identify as or how you decide to dress or present yourself: they want to know when they come to scene if they are about to deal with a male or female to be able to tell how hard it will be to detain or arrest this person. Dealing physically with a male is generally wildly different than a woman.

 explicit trans labeling

I think there should be some record of people’s known mental disorders. It is useful for police to know, e.g., that this person is schizophrenic.

I wouldn’t say it needs to be a specific note on the driver’s license that they are trans or that they are mentally ill, of course; but when they look up the license it should tell them of any past history of mental illness (which I would imagine they already do).

 drag shows

I don’t think drag shows should be legal. They expose children to sexually degenerate, explicit, and dangerous content and behavior that is unhealthy for them. Likewise, I don’t think adults should have to experience that either.

Isn't this just the problem or flaw with monotheism? If everything flows from one entity, then that entity is responsible for everything. Since many events are evil, then that entity must be at least partly evil as we conceive it.

No. Evil is the privation of good; and other persons in the creation could be responsible for its introduction.

It doesn't matter that he was explicitly killing everyone in the OT

It matters because God then would be doing something evil as opposed to merely allowing the evil of someone else.

Sex - Expected social behavior based on biology. It is statistically more likely for men to be aggressive.
Gender - Expecting a man to be aggressive and thinking, "You're not a man if you're not aggressive" even though it is a statistical reality that there will always be men who are less aggressive than women on average. The expectation is not based on biological likelihood, but cultural prejudice and expectations despite biological reality.

That’s fine, but I don’t think that is how gender theory nor my theory uses the terms.

There is no biological reason for a woman to wear a dress or ribbons in their hair for example

There is. Women tend towards things that are feminine. You are viewing gender in a sense of something that is purely a social construct, which is what liberals want because they can make these exact arguments. If there is no biological underpinning for women wearing dresses, then it is irrational and prejudicial to socially condemn men that wear dresses.

I understand the idea and I cannot say you are right or wrong. Only that I do not believe in a soul, so cannot hold this view.

Fair enough.

If gender and sex are separate as defined, then there is absolutely zero rational connection between one's gender having any justification for being in cross sex spaces.

For liberalism, the argument tends to be that we should only care about gender for treating people. This is why they push for bathrooms to be segregated on the basis of gender instead of sex; allowing transgenders to put their ‘gender’ as the opposite on their driver’s licenses; allowing men to play in women’s sports; etc.

I completely agree with you that we should care about sex and not gender if we are using the term ‘gender’ to refer to something completely divorced of sex.

But does that justify control from a religious viewpoint to a secular declaration of marriage? I would argue linguistic limitations to control thoughts is wrong no matter who is in control.

I partially agree. Firstly, I think politics is an upshot of ethics; so this secular idea of making ethics a personal hobby doesn’t make sense to me. I don’t think ethics and the nation are truly separable, although I agree with the original intent behind “separation of church and state”.

I agree, secondly, that we should try to be intellectually virtuous in politics; but unfortunately, pragmatically, rhetoric is really important to explaining things to the average person. Normal people don’t do philosophy like you and I where we dissect ideas and follow rationally what we believe is correct: most people just listen to political debates online or on the media that are fully of fallacious thought and convince them of one position or another. Most people are sadly moved by emotion and not reason.

Think of it this way. If you needed to convince people in a public political debate of your position, you will not succeed by trying to have a robust conversation like we are doing now. You will succeed by using loose terminology, simplifying it down, and being a good debater (speaker). The consequence of using loose terminology is that you have to reject your opponents terminology instead of being charitable. I’ve learned that politics is a much muddier and bloody process than philosophy.

 I think the definition of words themselves as a means of control is wrong.

I agree in the sense that we should be aiming to provide precise definitions and get at the truth; but political debates don’t allow the time or resources to be able to have a super robust conversation like in philosophy. What I am doing here is attempting to help people by using language that helps them avoid the conflations and sophistry meant to deceive them in gender theory: I’m trying to help them but in an oversimplified way to reach the average person.

Fantastic discussion as always Bob! We may be taking different viewpoints on some of this, but I do understand where you are coming from. Your political views are your own and I am fine with whatever they are.

You too, my friend!

Banno, if you were paying attention, you would know I have noted many times in this thread that someone could make a virtual but not real distinction between sex and gender and I wouldn't have any major issues with it. The bottom-line is that gender is not a social construct.

To me they seem to be founded in bigotry, but no doubt you think I’m wrong too, so I guess we’re a microcosm of our times.

The difference between us, I would suggest, is that I don’t think you are a bigot for thinking there is a difference between gender or sex; or even holding stereotypical liberal views I reject (if you do). A bigotry charge is a serious accusation: why do you think people who disagree with your political views are all bigots? Or is just those who reject gender theory? Or perhaps my account of gender and sex?

The issue for me is that no one has the right to use another person’s body without their consent, even to preserve life. For the pregnant, this means a person is not morally obligated to sustain a fetus, regardless of whether it is considered a “person,” because a right to life does not include the right to forcibly use someone else’s body. And this principle applies universally: just as no one is required to donate a kidney or remain attached to life-support to save another, no one can be compelled to maintain a pregnancy, making abortion permissible on the basis of bodily autonomy and self-ownership.

I hear where you are coming from; but you are overlooking a consideration of how one can uphold their rights. You are not wrong that one has the right to not have their body used against their consent; but this doesn’t mean that someone can do anything they need in order to avoid their body being used against their consent. By analogy, I have a right to life: I have a right to not be directly intentionally killed when innocent. However, I do not have the right to do everything in my power to avoid getting murdered. For example, imagine someone is going to kill me but gives me the option to go murder someone else to get out of it; and let’s say I know with 100% certainty that I will get murdered if I do not commit this murder (so I can’t escape or something) and if I murder this other person then they will honor the agreement (thereby avoiding my own murder). Can I do that? No. The ends do not justify the means. What you are missing here is that a person is not permitted to violate someone else’s rights to uphold their own.

For example, if you were kidnapped by an evil scientist and this scientist surgically connected you to another innocent victim whereby you could live without being connected to the other victim but NOT vice-versa. If you were given the option to either surgically remove this other victim from you and thereby re-gain your bodily autonomy (assuming you do not consent to the situation) OR you have to continue to have your bodily resources being used to supply life to this other innocent person, is it morally perimissilbe for you to cut the cord? Of course not. You cannot violate this other person’s right to life to uphold your own rights: that’s a bad means for a good end.

Your idea that we can “cure” them seems antediluvian or Stalinist. Let’s cure gay people too, huh?

I don’t support Stalin: that’s a blatant straw man. Wouldn’t you agree that being homosexual or transgender is a result of socio-psychological disorders or/and biological developmental issues? Do you really believe that a perfectly healthy (psychologically and biologically) human that grows up on an environment perfectly conducive to human flourishing would end up with the desire to have sex with the same sex? Do you think a part of our biological programming is to insert a sex organ into an organ designed to defecate?

Do you get your moral views from a particular interpretation of Christianity?

I get it from Aristo-Thomism.

:up:

I don't know why @Banno never wants to engage. :confused:

Maleness and masculinity aren't the same and I never suggested otherwise: they are conceptually distinct. Gender and sex, under my view, are not. Being male is having a nature of the procreative type that serves the role of providing, protecting, impregnating, etc. a female: it is based off of sex. Masculinity is the traits that males naturally gravitate towards, but are not traits that only males could exhibit: same for femininity. Everyone that is male is a male fully in essence but is imperfectly one in existence.

Nature. Have you never heard of Natural Selection?

Yes I have: what’s your point?

And what do we actually mean when we say that "gender is a social construction"? Wouldn't that mean that for a person to transition between genders they would have to transition between societies (as in moving from one country to another, or from one region to another)?

Not necessarily; but I am not interested in defending gender theory. My position was against gender theory; and your role as a critic would be to defend it (unless you are agreeing with me or have an alternative theory).

And how is a social construction equitable to a personal feeling? By declaring gender as a social expectation we are defining gender as the expectations of society as a whole, not the feelings of an individual that run counter to those expectations

It’s a confusion of both. The individual sees that other people are treated differently than them based off of their nature (e.g., a man noticing a woman can wear a dress); they want to be treated that way (e.g., he wants to wear a dress); so he starts mimicking what normally would be associated with being female. Gender theory tries to rationalize this by saying that gender is just those social cues and expressions—not the expectations of society—and so someone can legitimately present themselves and thereby be that other gender (so now you are allegedly irrational for thinking the man should not be wearing dresses because he is a woman now qua gender). It’s sophistical nonsense.

The fact you will never engage with me on any topic and continue to gate-keep, superficially name-drop, and posture makes me believe, if I am being honest, that you don't have a metaphysical theory you adhere to.

I think I have built enough rapport with you for you to know that I am sincere in my efforts and I will happily and unapologetically concede any points I think are good from my opposition. You are saying, as many times before, that I am simply ignorant of some newer metaphysics that would swipe Aristotelianism off its feet and I am, as usual, asking you for what they are. You refuse to lead the horse to water, and the horse is parched....

Instead of making baseless accusations, I would challenge you to actually contend with the points I made. It is uncontroversially true in America that what I explicated is the liberal agenda (although, as I noted to @Tom Storm, some of the language they will disagree with [like calling abortion murder]).

Fair enough!

In my view the substantial form of the body, the soul, is what accounts for the nature of a human....

1) For individuals to live free of bigotry and for homosexuality and trans people to be able to live as they want.

True, but this is the underlying reason why they support some of the agendas I gave: you are just supporting my claims here. I understand some of my language they would not agree with because it begs the question (like calling abortion murder), but generally those claims do hold.

2) A woman's right to have bodily autonomy and self-determination.

Yes, at the expense of murdering a child. Having an abortion is like hiring a hit man to solve your problems. I’m tired of people acting like abortion is a niche and complicated issue: by historical standards of murder, it is murder. No one would argue that, e.g., I didn’t commit murder if I used someone against their will as a shield to jump out of a window of a burning building to successfully save myself from the excruciating suffering of burning alive...even if it was the only way for me to save myself...and yet if a woman’s life is on the line in pregnancy its fine to directly intentionally kill the innocent person in the women.

The only complex aspect of abortion is whether or not one believes personhood begins at conception—not if autonomy “trumps” the right to life.

. Trans people exist, have always existed, and will continue to exist, denying them serves no one. Why not simply accept this reality?

I am not, nor is any mainstream conservative, arguing that trans people don’t exist: that would be silly. Trans people exist as a person of the gender they have independently of which gender they want to be: they exist as mentally ill people who desperately need our help to cure them. They have really high anxiety, depression, and suicidality that is needs to be addressed. Now, a liberal might argue that pragmatically the best way to deal with those symptoms is to affirm their gender: to conform their body to their mind; for me it is to conform their mind to their body.

Minor issues, such as prisons, toilets, or sport, can be resolved and are distractions from the deeper question of identity. I'm not interested in how we choreograph prisons or sport to accommodate an evolving understanding of gender. Let's leave those to social policy processes.

For you, then, what are the ‘major issues’ related to transgenderism?

What do you have against trans people? Is it ultimately that you believe they go against God?

I have love for transgender people as all people. I want them to be able to live their best lives; but living a good life is relative to the realization of their essence in existence—not bending reality to what they desire. I think we should have government programs for studying transgenderism to cure it and they should have programs that help transgenders be cured. Admitting that affirming transgenderism is immoral does not mean that we should stigmatize it and make it completely illegal to talk about it. We need to make transgender people feel welcome and safe enough to get help; just like we do with schizophrenics.

Lmao. You always do this: you posture without actually engaging with me. If you think there is some metaphysical theory out there that is better than my own view, then I am all ears as usual. You never provide any.

To be clear, I am not interested you just name dropping a book: I want you to forward a position that you find plausible that I can discuss with you. If you aren't up for the challenge, then I don't get the point in you posturing.

1. i personally think it has to do with differences in terms of what rights people think they should have have...for example, lots of completely heterosexual liberals want people to freely practice "those deviant behaviors", but are indifferent as to whether or not they do it, it's a matter of what they should be allowed to do, rather than enforcing homosexuality...etc.

Yes: this fits their liberal agenda of providing people with maximal choices to choose from and autonomy: the selling point of liberalism is that ethics is supposed to be divorced from politics. My point was that there are liberal agendas: you are shifting the goal-post.

2. transgenderism in a legal framework, no unified agreement...not something i hear a lot of liberals advocating besides transexuals and their supporters

What do you mean by transgenderism being a legal framework? It’s a ideological view that one can convert to a different gender.

Liberals are advocating for “transgender rights”, drag shows, etc. in America rit large: this is not a niche position that liberals support people having affirming gender care and being able to transition.

3. the "no enforcible immigration policies" is an extreme left-wing or anarchist point of view, it's not the kind of thing advocated by your typical liberal. Biden and Obama both intensely enforced immigration policy, the severe drop in mexican immigration we see now started at the end of the Biden administration...

That’s true; but right now we see people actively supporting illegal immigrants, even to the point of helping them evade ICE, and condemning mass deportations. Liberals don’t really support deportations in practice.

4. That's a fairly loaded way to discuss abortion, it's a purely moral framing as opposed to a consequentialist or ecnomic/social way of looking at the problem.

Consequentialism is a family of normative ethical theories; and morality is the only way to properly evaluate abortion. Economic and social aspects of the discussion only supplement the position one holds relative to ethics.

These are all differences in how people think policies should be shaped, none of them are really "agendas" unless you apply the same logic in reverse (i.e., opposition to gay marriage is a "conservative agenda"), it's a basic part of representative democracies for differences in opinion to exist.

An agenda is “the underlying intentions or motives of a particular person or group”. Unless you think that liberalism doesn’t by-at-large forward those positions, then I don’t know why you think it isn’t an agenda. Likewise, I agree that conservatives have agendas: I have agendas. Everyone has an agenda.

:up: