I believe you refer to religiosity ... — Alkis Piskas

Yes

BTW, happiness has a lot to do with ethics. — Alkis Piskas

I agree. I try to live an ethical life for a lot of reasons. It has a lot of advantages.

If you have to function among people who are less rational than you, you will probably run into a lot of problems. — baker

Just look at politics or pseudo-ethical barriers slowing medical advancements. It's infuriating.

I have also explained why "an unethical person can never be happy." — Alkis Piskas

I think an unethical person is far less likely to be happy, but I find it hard to believe that out of 7 billion people there are no counterexamples. As a general rule, it certainly holds true. My former roommate was the epitome of unethical and he was miserable because of it.

Do you have some examples or rationale on that? — Alkis Piskas

It's clearly shown that there's a positive correlation with intelligence and happiness up to a certain point (about 130). The reasons behind that should be obvious. At the upper echelon, however, it's much less clear. I think rationality can be a double-edged sword in this area. Consider religious beliefs, for instance. Religiosity has been clearly linked with happiness and fulfillment, but religiosity also varies inversely with IQ. At some point its shortcomings become so overwhelmingly obvious that you can't help but reject it, no matter how psychologically useful it may be. Those who possess very high IQ's are also more likely to be socially isolated and experience certain types of mental illness.

I'm certainly not saying there aren't counterexamples. It just seems likely that there's some inverse correlation with IQ and happiness beyond a certain level. You piqued my curiosity though. I'm gonna see if I can dig up some data to shed light on the subject.

But this is exactly what should make us free and should be considered as a leverage for happiness, not an obstacle. That free us from all the idiot unnecessary social stress we have. Life itself is nothing but a joke. We humans just take it too serious. — dimosthenis9

I've heard about this perspective before. Honestly, it makes sense. It's just very counter to my nature. It does help, but I don't think it's the whole solution for me.

People with high IQ are certainly known as more happy. — Alkis Piskas

Are you sure? I've never observed this. Genius IQ's in my family are normal, but so is depression. Maybe it's beneficial to an extent and then detrimental thereafter (in terms of achieving happiness).

From what I remember, he was a pessimist, right? — Alkis Piskas

Yes

Ha ha, I like that. :)

Just for the record, if a tree falls in a forest, and no one is there to hear it, it absolutely does not make a sound. Rather, it makes a series of vibrations in the air. IF and ONLY IF someone is there to hear it, the vibrations become what we understand as sound. — SatmBopd

Oh, c'mon. That's just semantics, and I don't even buy it. That would mean that if a person who stood next to a speaker producing a particular sound walked far enough away from said speaker, the speaker would stop producing the sound even though nothing changed physically. Reductio ad absurdum?

In regards to your main point, I have never seen things the way do you so there is only so much I can understand- do not want to come off as insensitive - but I have always found innumerable ways to either be happy, or better yet, not even need to be happy to be fulfilled and content. — SatmBopd

You're very fortunate.

It does not matter how all encompassing or inevitable a source of suffering is, if I can situate myself in opposition to it, and muster the strength to even try to confront it, then I have something engaging to do. — SatmBopd

That's true. This is where most of my time has been spent actually. I'm referring to the "list of things that contributed to my unhappiness." This idea of finding meaning through opposition is a tenet of stoicism. I like it.

Stoicism is another option, although I don't think it is quite as cool as heroism. — SatmBopd

Ha ha! Right after I typed that.

Whatever hopes were shattered at their death are rekindled with the beat of every waking heart and in the eyes of little children. If they only knew that the sun still rises, as beautiful as it did for the Egyptians, the Greeks, and the Tang. — SatmBopd

For some reason i interpret this as more depressing than hope inspiring. Maybe it's the continuation of disappointment or failure vs a chance at redemption.

If you really think nothing matters, there is a very VERY VERY small chance that you would tell me that nothing mattered. If its all just the same, why not tell me that everything matters? — SatmBopd

I agree with your reasoning, but as I said in the OP, it's not a true nihilism. Nihilism is a decent-enough starting point, but I have to qualify it.

You value nihilism as long as you want to uphold it, which is not nihilism. — SatmBopd

"The following is an experiment in nihilism. Already I have contradicted myself! How can one believe in disbelief? I might be a nihilist except that I don’t believe in anything."

- Mitchell Heisman

If he did I'm flattered :lol: — john27

Oops! No, that was Socrates: "Ordinary people seem not to realize that those who really apply themselves in the right way to philosophy are directly and of their own accord preparing themselves for dying and death. If this is true, and they have actually been looking forward to death all their lives..."

This is not what nihilism is, based on the definition I provided above. — Alkis Piskas

I don't think those are mutually exclusive definitions. I think meaninglessness is a product of purpose-giving ideas being baseless. This is from Internet Encyclopedia of Philosophy: "Nihilism is the belief that all values are baseless and that nothing can be known or communicated."

Believing in universal and objective values, maybe do not give life a meaning but make it stronger, more solid. Such values are based on logic (rational thinking), which is the best tool that Man disposes and which makes them mentally healthy human beings. This must be never underestimated! — Alkis Piskas

I agree that it makes life a lot better. It provides somewhat of a foundation. I'm not sure that rationality leads to happiness though. On the contrary, the smartest people I've known are usually not the happiest. Schopenhauer was brilliant, but he was far from happy.

I do agree, though, that meaning and purpose are subjective. They are what you make them.

It became like a bell that would be sounded whenever I thought about doing something, letting me know what a waste of effort it would be. — Judaka

Exactly! I used to be very prolific, but now I don't do anything.

I'm going to spend more time thinking about this. I like your wording: "possessed by nihilism."

If you dance, do you want get from one place to another ? Or are you enjoying a movement
If you listen a good music, do you want music to get to the end fast ? Or you enjoying it in process ? — Nothing

I agree that the solution is to enjoy the process. Recognizing that is the first step. Now it's a matter of how exactly to go about it.

Oh yes, I'm familiar with Camus. “There is only one really serious philosophical problem, and that is suicide."

Yes, if given the choice to feel better, I would make it. Taking time daily to learn about the mind and yourself can get exhausting though. Usually I have introspective periods scattered throughout my day, and sometimes my effort is more concerted. I want answers and I'm spending time looking for them.

There are many intellectual paths one could take in life, however your subconscious is now telling you that yours has led you to a dead end and it's telling you through depression.

A nihilistic philosophy is almost certain to be dissonant with the human experience. Humans simply experience things as having value, whether we're able to objectively confirm that or not. — Tzeentch

I agree with this 100%.

Perhaps an interesting thought could be, why you prefer to take a nihilistic outlook on life, which is just as uncertain of a supposition as an outlook that claims things do have value. — Tzeentch

I think agnosticism implies equal likelihood, which I disagree with. I'm inclined to have nihilistic views because that makes the most sense. This is clearly not based on utility, as nihilism is inherently destructive. There are some life-promoting branches, like absurdism, but in general all arrows point toward suicide.

I've yet to meet a person whose professed views entirely contradict their lived experience in which it does not lead to them becoming miserable. — Tzeentch

That is very true!

You want a legacy but are guaranteed none. — Kenosha Kid

I think including that part in the OP was a little misleading. Legacy to me is meaningless because it implies that value comes from recognition, which seems absurd to me. I would say that value absolutely does not depend on recognition (or being remembered). Also, without exception, everybody is eventually forgotten.

Thank you! And to you too! I already completed the surgeries. I'm currently in the recovery process. I'm still in pain but it's manageable and my mobility is improving.



I certainly am depressed, but I believe it's an effect and not a cause. I'm currently taking medication and that's been the only way I've been able to function. Without it I would be jobless and in a far worse position. I've tried therapy, but it hasn't helped. I'll likely try again in the future though.

What works for me is that instead of striving for a happy life, I live for a proper death. After all, Were all gonna kick the can someday. — john27

Can you elaborate some? Didn't Plato make a comment like that? Something along the lines of "All of life is just preparation for death."

I'm no Buddhist but I found these ideas helpful decades ago when I first grappled with meaninglessness. — Tom Storm

I'm not religious by any stretch, but I agree with many of the tenets of Buddhism (definitely the points you mentioned).

The most effective way to deal with the absurdity of reality, that I have found, is to shrug my shoulders, and make sure I get enough sleep. Stay calm and lucid. — _db

That basically describes me. Also, in recognition of this context of absurdity, I'm indifferent when faced with most risks.

Happiness, however, comes at a price. We have to, well, work for it. One can't just lie in bed and decide to be happy and be happy. — TheMadFool

Regarding the list that I mentioned earlier, the list of things that contributed to my unhappiness, some of the items have been more difficult to cross off than others. The most difficult probably would have to be one of the more recent items: correcting my short stature. I worked 80-hour weeks and had 4 surgeries to correct my proportions and increase my height. This was, as you could imagine, agonizing. Anyway, my only point is that I am putting in the work.

The meaning of life is to regularly overcome resistance. — the affirmation of strife

This feels like stoicism. I regularly practice a lot of stoic philosophies.

Do the hardest thing you think you can do. — the affirmation of strife

This was my life "before." I had a foreign-language vocabulary in the neighborhood of 10,000 words, played the piano and composed a little, was a proficient mnemonist, and planned to double major in physics and math (My professors said I had the aptitude for it.).

In hindsight this was all a distraction. There were philosophical problems that I didn't want to address. I was too busy filling my life with meaning to consider meaninglessness.



From Bring Me The Horizon, right? Hospital For Souls? That's a great song!

Thank you to everybody who responded. Even if I didn't respond to you directly, I read your post. Thank you. :)

Usually the solution to this type nihilism involves seeing yourself more as part of a greater whole, that consequentially has a function or purpose in that larger whole.... Problem is we don't especially live in a culture right now that is conductive to this kind of solution, because any type of communitarian feeling be it religious or non-religious has essentially been hollowed out by individualism/capitalism/consumerism. — ChatteringMonkey

That perspective of being part of something larger than yourself is one of the only things that's helped. I'd like to have a positive impact on the lives of the people around me. It makes me feel a little better.

I wrote sometime ago: "There is X and there is Y, and the simple fact that neither one matters itself does not matter, so they proceed apace as if they did, and that is all that matters." — James Riley

I like that a lot.

I think you would benefit from reading Spinoza. He's very similar to Nietzsche in some ways, but in other ways closer to the Stoics or even Taoists. Even he came to the conclusion that all things that were impermanent were going to be unsatisfying. Spinoza's solution? Find happiness in something that is eternal, which is your power of understanding. These are some good posts that go into this sort of thing from a Spinozist angle: — Albero

I appreciate the recommendations and will be going through that list shortly. I've read most of Nietzsche's books, but I haven't read Spinoza.

Also, you should read up on Schopenhauer. — schopenhauer1

I'm familiar with Schopenhauer's work. He writes beautifully, and I subscribe to pretty much all of his ideas. I go back to him from time to time.

True meaning is what gives YOUR life meaning. It doesn't matter if your life won't extend to tomorrow, you're alive today right? You want to do something at the end of the day, fulfills you. To feel like you enjoyed existing that day. To feel like you could enjoy existing tomorrow if it comes. — Philosophim

You worded this very well, and I agree. Also, regarding your comment about people remembering my greatness, I don't believe that value is conferred by recognition. That quickly leads to absurdities. All that being said, I'm struggling to look away from the abyss and find my own meaning. I have made progress though.

Your philosophy reminds me of Viktor Frankl's

*******

I'm going to come back and continue replying to comments later. I appreciate everybody who has taken the time to respond.

I agree with your point about striving to maintain equilibrium. I've given up all hope for some grand reconciliation. There isn't one.

Live in the now, I suppose. Don't be concerned about the future. — Caldwell

That's what I'm trying to do. I'm currently in a cafe enjoying some coffee. The existential dread is like background noise, and the coffee tastes good. :)

If everything is pointless and there is nothing you want, then why on earth are you working? Is working not pointless? — Bitter Crank

To be fair, I did qualify my statement ("almost"). I work as a pediatric nurse and helping people is one of the only things that I still find worthwhile. I dropped out of college during my senior year as a chemical engineering student for this reason.

It has always been our human task to provide meaning; the universe doesn't provide it. Since you are working and making good money, you must be a fully functional person. Coming up with some positive thought is well within your operational capabilities. Step One is to stop staring into the abyss. There is nothing to get from it. Step Two is to wean yourself off the cycle of meaningless thinking.

The goal isn't some syrupy, candy-flavored fantasy. Rather, dry solid rock. A positive philosophy may not make you happy, but it will get you a lot farther than nihilism. — Bitter Crank

Very well put! As I'm currently finishing up crossing items off my list of things that make me unhappy, a gradual shift in my thinking (or focus rather) seems to be the next logical step.

Do you want some input, or is there nothing you want? — unenlightened

Yes, if interpreted literally, that's a contradiction. I think you know what I mean though.

Au contraire, it is the ephemerality that makes them precious — unenlightened

I've given a lot of thought to the idea that ephemerality increases the value of things. I don't subscribe to this idea though. I think something may have value despite being ephemeral, but I wouldn't attribute its value to ephemerality or argue that ephemerality augments its value in some way.

But probably you cannot understand this, because you are too focussed on yourself and your own happiness and eternal fame and so on. — unenlightened

I think when I talked about being forgotten I may have painted the wrong picture. this would mean that value depends on recognition. It would be like arguing that if a tree falls in the forest and there's nobody around to hear it, it wouldn't make a sound. Also, it's my interactions with other people that are the only source of fulfillment in my life. The problem is that it's just not enough. Any fulfillment I experience is dwarfed by suffering.

If everything you could ever achieve will be undone, it seems to me like the only solution is to enjoy the process. It's difficult for me though. The pain in my life far outweighs any joy and I'm not sure how to change this. I started by making a list of the things that bother me. I thought I would take a Schopenhauer-like approach and achieve happiness indirectly by eliminating things that made me unhappy, but now I'm towards the end of the list and only a little happier.

I've never heard it quite described in that way, but I love it!

It would definitely be very taxing. And, as mentioned earlier, any "black and white" system of ethics breaks down pretty quickly.

I agree completely. Finding counterexamples is easy and the approach is undoubtedly lazy.

I understand that the purpose of the question is validation, but isn't it unfair to assume that the person asking doesn't want the truth? In that case you're making an assumption about a lack of maturity, which, if revealed, could just as easily be as offensive as the truth. Shouldn't the person asking the question take responsibility?

Absolutely not. So lies can be ethical, as you pointed out. I'll have to think about that some more. That's a great example.