I was surprised by the depiction of what is said to be "Socratic" in your account of the Penner article. I will try to read it and maybe respond.

If I do try to reply, it would be good to know if you have studied Philosophical Fragments as a whole or only portions as references to other arguments.

Your summary of Berkeley and his reception is helpful and germane.

I would only add that the "world ending" in 6.431 is a recognition of the solitary that reveals the Berkeleyan move to be a giving oneself a world before retreating from it. When not permitted the move, one cannot judge objectivity from a separate space. That is an echo of PI 251:

These words are a defence against something whose form makes it look like an empirical proposition but which is really a grammatical one.

Kierkegaard wishes to stand athwart the Enlightenment rationalism notion of self-authority, preferring instead a Socratic approach that does not wield authority through the instrument of reason. — Leontiskos

The Philosophical Fragments juxtaposes the Socratic idea of self-knowledge to learning the truth in some other way. That is an exact description of his argument in the text.

Some bridge is needed to get that text to mean what you describe.

In the OP I mentioned a few objections, but not aesthetics. From what you and others have said, it's clear that the strongest objection is aesthetic. — Banno

I would like to challenge that but am presently more interested in the Bongo response.

Perhaps an instance of Hegel noting where a change of quantity is a change of quality.

I really do not see the difference here. Following Wittgenstein, all that "saying something" is, is arranging words as if you were saying something. Meaning (as in what is meant, by intention) is not a separate requirement for "saying something", because meaning is assumed to be inherent within "arranging words as if you were saying something". — Metaphysician Undercover

That reading of Wittgenstein assumes "meaning" is an arbitrary convention. That is precisely what he militates against in Philosophical Investigations. There is a passage that is amusing to read in this conversation about interlocuters being actual or not.

A human being can encourage himself, give himself orders, obey, blame and punish himself; he can ask himself a question and answer it. We could even imagine human beings who spoke only in monologue; who accompanied their activities by talking to themselves.—An explorer who watched them and listened to their talk might succeed in translating their language into ours. (This would enable him to predict these people's actions correctly, for he also hears them making resolutions and decisions.)

But could we also imagine a language in which a person could write down or give vocal expression to his inner experiences—his feelings, moods, and the rest—for his private use?——Well, can't we do so in our ordinary language?—But that is not what I mean. The individual words of this language are to refer to what can only be known to the person speaking; to his immediate private sensations. So another person cannot understand the language. — PI, 243

As it relates to this OP, Wittgenstein's statement throws the issue of pretense of AI into sharp relief. It is a pretend form of monologue when talking to oneself and a pretend form of dialogue when directed at others, whether admitted or not.

As a camper on the colline de Molière, my observation more properly belongs on the other OP.

My pup tent is located somewhere on your hill. Kafka must also be nearby:

He eats the droppings from his own table; thus he manages to stuff himself fuller than the others for a little, but meanwhile he forgets how to eat from the table; thus in time even the droppings cease to fall. — Kafka, Reflections, 69, translated by Willa and Edwin Muir

I appreciate the explanation of sandbagging. The adaptive process seems parallel to marketing feedback to customer selections: An algorithm of mirrors inducts future novelty.

That adds another wrinkle to "when is the interlocutor not an interlocutor" question discussed previously.

It is very tricky. I am inclined to think that it is not overcome but I won't try to argue for that as a thesis but just give some impressions on a field of uncertainty.

The solipsism of TLP appears as a natural consequence of the previous statements but accepting that result is not a speaking of it. It sounds like a speaking of it. We need a point of comparison to approach this negative.

The reference to the condition of being "realist" is connected in my mind to 6.431:

So too the world doesn't change when we die, it just ends.

This suggests that Berkeley not "carrying out" the thought allowed him to have opinions about what is objective that is a misunderstanding of his transcendental place, to employ a Kantian term. Wittgenstein insists that we are constrained in this regard. That restraint is also evident in his later work. For example:

240. Disputes do not break out (among mathematicians, say) over the question whether a rule has been obeyed or not. People don't come to blows over it, for example. That is part of the framework on which the working of our language is based (for example, in giving descriptions).

241. "So you are saying that human agreement decides what is true and what is false?"—It is what human beings say that is true and false; and they agree in the language they use. That is no agreement in opinions but in form of life. — Philosophical Investigations

There is also all the emphasis on what is private or not in the context of language. I will leave it there.

I would like to again underline a difference between psychiatry and psychology. A psychiatrist is a medical doctor. Think of her as a gathering place of different streams of research. That runs the gamut from neuroscience, genetics, pathology of diseases, drugs and their effects, etcetera. That doctor is also a gathering point for streams of psychological research. The psychodynamic is but one of many and they vary greatly upon what they build their models upon. Consider this search page of models of human development psychology. If you go down a few of the pages, you will start seeing reference to the big names of the twentieth century.

The social dynamics Vygotsky introduced has expanded into many other ways looking at environments where the individual emerges.

The research of therapies involves the range of such models but also performs researches of therapy as such. That is where the Boulder model comes in. Practice and theory are necessarily connected but also always apart.

When W says that solipsism is not an opinion, the view is connected to the Tractatus saying it is present but cannot be said. There is something to be overcome but is not like overturning a proposition.

I have learned many things through it but have often come to question their summaries when reading actual texts. Probably the fate of all attempts at classification.

There are many other practitioners who agree and the importance of theories of development is that such views held by many are meaningless theoretically.

The acknowledgement of a defect is not a theory in itself. It is new theory that leads to new treatments. Rogers wants his seat at the diagnosis table.

Yes. Dyslexic spelling.

Each attendee to the welcome wagon certainly presents their own tray of muffins.

Szaz stood outside of the community of practitioners and called a pox upon all their houses. Liang was more of an 'ordinary language' protest to the accretion of diagnostic hierarchy. They annoyed practitioners for entirely different reasons.

Rogers was a well ensconced practitioner in the discipline of "organizational psychology", hardly a voice from the wilderness. Let me leave off from describing Liang other than to question his generalities.

In so far as directly engaging with original texts goes, I found it helpful to record reactions, note parallels, and keep track of references as one proceeds. Apart from whatever direction I have gone, the practice I began at the beginning has been a gift to my future self. It started out as marginalia and then a notebook linked to marginalia, and then linking to indexes in specific works. I developed a kind of marginalia in those indexes that still helps me decades later.

Everyone has their own style, but some form of this discipline helps one keep building on previous learning.

Yes. I was waving toward that in my comments above concerning the world of the "patient."

I see some hope from the developmental conception side where there is a big world outside of the industry of the practitioner.

As far as assigning blame goes, there is a parallel dynamic in the practice of law in shifting sands of what it stands upon.

Edit to add: The two sides have some unsightly hook ups on a regular basis.

The definition excludes a difference that does not replace why the difference has been used up to now. General terms lose their value when they apply equally to all particulars without a way to make distinctions amongst those particulars. "All men have flesh" is not to say, "Flesh is all that men are." As a matter of contrast, the use of the terms self/selfless is similar to other contraries which provide a way to distinguish what is experienced through a range of differences. That was my first point:

The problem with your bubble is that the generality of the explanation renders any particular instance useless for inquiry. Distinctions without a difference. — Paine

The reference to La Rochefoucauld is to point out that none of his Maxims do anything without the distinction. Your definition erases his observations. Thus, my second point:

It is a problem with your dichotomy. You enlist La Rochefoucauld for your purposes but are unable to replace his model with equal perspicuity. — Paine

Hanover underlined the paucity of this generality as a way of describing our world. I jumped on the wagon by noting your definition does not give us any leverage understanding actual experiences:

It is not as if the collapse gives us a better way to understand narcissism, lack of self-awareness, or solipsism, as a form of isolation. — Paine

When Copernicus changed his standpoint from that of Ptolemy, he was looking at the same heavenly bodies. Your definition says they are the same but there is no corresponding discovery proffered.

I should not have spoken so absolutely. I was focusing on the question "why not?"

Your example of coding reminds me of how I learned methods of work in the trades. It started by following instructions and imitating others. Through experience, the arts became my own. That does not mean being free of help or learning new methods. It does mean being where the rubber meets the road as you describe in relation to criteria of failure.

In that context, I have a ready reference for what amplifies a skill and what replaces it. Laser levels are powerful tools but do not check themselves. Plumb bobs do. Scheduling software aggregates information much quicker than I can but are useless without me imagining the work sequences against lived experiences amongst known resources. Calculators and accounting software are great but do not replace the one-on-one correspondence needed to be sure something has not been forgotten. I use cyphers for my material assessment because they don't care when I think of something.

On the other hand, drawing programs do what my hand sketches do not. They create a model which measurements confirm but do not compose. I would call that a replacement that allows me to communicate with designers in their language but not do all of what they do. GPS and google maps have replaced my orienting skills. There in there somewhere but I hope I don't need them tomorrow. I have no idea what my wife's phone number is.

As for writing creatively and intellectually, I don't think of it as dispensing with help altogether as Simon Willson describes the matter but do think finding one's own voice and point of view is about becoming more independent from whatever helped a writer in the past. I guess I am one of those Harry Hindu says threw down a bag of drachmas to become a participant in the conversation. The scope of such literacy is itself a dependency, however, an artifact of intelligence that my thinking is far from free of. That is why I have put so much emphasis here on commenting on original texts in favor of commentary upon commentary. It would be fair to say that excludes me from a lot of discourse. It does let me know what my own understanding is and what it is not.

Psychiatry is bound up with values about norms or what is considered 'normal'. There are also political aspects of the practice of psychiatry too. — Jack Cummins

Agreed. I propose that some measure of that is because of the focus upon diagnosis organized around saying what is wrong with a particular patient. There is also the politics of care or the lack of it.

Psychology is a part of that dynamic too but provides a better background to address your concerns. The different approaches to treatment grow out of models of human development. The range of differences between Freud and Vygotsky, for instance, are attempts to say where the "normal" comes from. The shift in treatment you observed in your comment to BC ultimately hinges upon models of development.

One work that vividly captures that dimension is Jung's On the Nature of the Psyche. When read by itself rather than as a component of a greater theory, it shows a caregiver suddenly coming face to face with individuals and asking: "What the hell is going on here?"

If AI helps me compose more correctly, why not? — Copernicus

It precludes you from becoming more skillful. The disengagement from the art limits your horizon.

I am reminded of the Flappers of Laputa who constantly had to remind their masters where they were and what they were doing in Jonathan Swift's Gulliver's Travels (page 17 forward)

Sure, why not? I would be more impressed if someone created a fascinating post by themselves, though. — Janus

The key element in that scenario is that there is no interlocutor to engage with if you attempt a response. Light's on, nobody home.

The difference between sophism and dialogue has long been drawn as the difference between argument for argument's sake and honest expressions of what one thinks.

A peddler has come into town with a new collection of masks.

I don't use AI beyond search engines. I have no experience of it generating text per request.

Seeing its expansion reminds me of what David Krakauer said about tools for understanding. Some increase your capability, others replace it. It seems like a good rule of thumb regarding the digital.

As a method of plagiarism, it resembles its predecessors. I remember how Cliff Notes provided the appearance of scholarship without the actual participation of a student.

If you have arrived at a definition that collapses the distinction, you've not arrived at a new profound truth (i.e. that there is personal benefit in kindness to others so such kindness is selfush), but instead you've just mis-defined a term. — Hanover

That collapse is what I tried to illustrate earlier in the discussion.

It is not as if the collapse gives us a better way to understand narcissism, lack of self-awareness, or solipsism, as a form of isolation.

As a reflection of professional care, the difference between psychology and psychiatry concerns diagnosis and treatment. Psychiatry has developed as a medical approach and psychology has developed from views of individual behavior that come from many, often conflicting, models. The role of the "subjective" comes from different models of human development. The value and role of subjective reporting is also hotly contested. Both practices are keen upon useful approaches to real-time problems. In many clinics, both kinds are on teams evaluating people. The distinction between objective and subjective is too general in this case.

On the clinical psychology side, the development of the Boulder model has been prominent in the development of the practice. The goal was to introduce rigorous methods of research that could answer to the standards of "medical" research but remain as a separate discipline. I linked to it as a search page result to show that it is far from being a settled debate.

P.S. Both sides that I have encountered turn purple at the mention of Liang and Szaz.

I will ponder upon the differences of constraints. I don't see it as a direct comparison of models so I have to think about it more.

But the idea of constraints is helpful in any comparison.

I get that from one of many "cybernetic" points of view.

But I also meant to say that the Aristotle particularity about specific matter comes into question if there are more than one kind of specific matter. Dualists are welcome to the same party.

I agree with Jamal that the OP suffers from the lack of a clear citation of the text.

Yes. It would demonstrate a pre-existing potential becoming actual in a different organization.

↪Paine Elaborate, please. — Copernicus

My previous efforts were not deemed worthy of consideration,

You offer only two possible motivations. I have been arguing the limits of such a division, not whether it is the case.

The argument is based upon being able to completely separate the self from what is not self. You defend the thesis by an appeal to solipsism as a given condition. But you give the world back to yourself when proposing a different one.

It is not a matter of challenging your thesis but from where the new models will come in the conditions you have set for yourself that make me think that you have had your cake and have eaten it too.

I fail to see where that's my problem. — Copernicus

It is a problem with your dichotomy. You enlist La Rochefoucauld for your purposes but are unable to replace his model with equal perspicuity.

Reality is subjective, dependent upon stimulus reception and intellectual perception. — Copernicus

"Stimulus reception" is the language of behaviorism. Reductions to a pure set of external inputs is not the foundation for solipsism.

By excluding all senses of "self-less" or not-for-yourself as a motive for action, there is no way to model particular behavior as relative to others. It makes La Rochefoucauld's observations useless because he was mainly interested in the differences of motivations behind similar appearances, not turning them into one goo.

The claim that all moral claims in the past were based upon this proposal of the single motivation of selflessness is taking a presumption for a fact. That kicks a lot of moral philosophy of the past to the curb.

If one grants your solipsistic bubble, how do we get to the model you present here:

Every act of kindness, every moral code, every love story is a negotiation between biology and meaning, desire and discipline, self and other. — Copernicus

Solipsists don't usually let themselves out for weekends on the town.

Framing the matter as either selfish or selfless, there is no way to compare behavior that involves a range of values. In La Rochefoucauld, for instance, demonstrates the scope of self-love and the influence of organic disposition but does not make it the last word on human experience. Our virtues and vices, strengths and weaknesses are measured against the ubiquity of self-love as a condition. So, for example, Maxims like these are prominent in the text:

339.—We only appreciate our good or evil in proportion to our self-love.

336.—There is a kind of love, the excess of which forbids jealousy.

267.—A quickness in believing evil without having sufficiently examined it, is the effect of pride and laziness. We wish to find the guilty, and we do not wish to trouble ourselves in examining the crime. — La Rochefoucauld, Maxims and Reflections

The problem with your bubble is that the generality of the explanation renders any particular instance useless for inquiry. Distinctions without a difference.

Let us assume, for the sake of argument, a form of epiphenomenalist dualism, in which there are two distinct kinds of things: physical processes occurring in the brain and an associated array of conscious experiences — tom111

There is a logical problem here. Attempts to reduce everything not evidently physical to the physical is not an argument for two different kinds of being. The "physical alone" argument is "monist" without qualification.

A lot of Kierkegaard's testimony takes the form of an intervention. Philosophical Fragments counterposes the Socratic view of 'recollection' that says we have the grounds for knowing truth within us to the Christian view that the condition for knowing truth must be given to us. That follows Pascal who said that Christianity is a scandal for reason but closer to the truth of the human condition than what reason provides.

The Concept of Anxiety lays out how that difference relates to a person's experience through a contrast between original sin and the emergence of an individual through their sins. By this means, he draws the limits of psychology and the beginning of the theological.

Works of Love is one very long sermon on the difference between Christian love and every other kind.

I don't know how that relates to your paradox, but Soren K definitely intended to turn over tables in the temple.

Which other insurrections?

Yes, a typo.

It is off topic to this OP, but I often wonder about self-identified schools of thought and the range of vocabulary shared amongst different views represented through them. I won't try to talk about that in this thread.